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Psychographic MCM Ohana

Psychographic

Posted
Posted
  On 1/14/2017 at 10:15 PM, ModelKitBuilder said:

What have i even done??? I asked a simple question and it was misinterpreted like crazy.

You came on to a site of model builders asking for help and admitting you have no interest in models, but are willing to make money from our (in many cases years) of knowledge. Then when you get called out on it, you cop an attitude and tell people to leave. Who the @#%& do you think you are?

 

You're acting like a troll, it's time for you to leave. Unless you are too stupid to figure it out, you are NOT welcome here.

Dann Tier MCM Ohana

Dann Tier

Posted
Posted
  On 1/14/2017 at 10:44 PM, Psychographic said:

You came on to a site of model builders asking for help and admitting you have no interest in models, but are willing to make money from our (in many cases years) of knowledge. Then when you get called out on it, you cop an attitude and tell people to leave. Who the @#%& do you think you are?

 

You're acting like a troll, it's time for you to leave. Unless you are too stupid to figure it out, you are NOT welcome here.

Great way to sum it up.

Matt Bacon MCM Ohana

Matt Bacon

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/14/2017 at 5:06 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I see "marketers" as noncontributing members of society who do nothing but drive costs up without adding value. EXAMPLE: generic products are very often equal to (or even superior to) heavily-marketed brands, but cost dramatically less because they don't have to support legions of professional BS-ers trying to convince people to buy them. 

Well, that's me told... Just to speak up (briefly) for what I do, marketing isn't (or shouldn't be) advertising or sales. Nor is it just about asking customers what they want and building it, no matter how it turds out (see what I did there...?). Marketing should be about understanding what matters to customers, what problems the are trying to solve, or what needs they have that need meeting, and creatively, with passion, coming up with products that meet those needs. To take an example close to what we do, WingNut Wings is NOT only a product of passion. They looked at the WW1 modelling fraternity, which was previously served by small-scale kits, vintage Auroras, and a few 1/32 kits from Roden, mostly, and figured out that the kind of people who would model WW1 aircraft would want large scales (1/32), state of the art, made with love, and presented with a certain style...and actually weren't too bothered about the price, because the value per building hour was high. Add to that a USP in the shape of Peter Jackson, his 1:1 collection, replica chops, and Weta Workshop and you're onto a winner. On a different but 1:1 angle, the original Mustang was ENTIRELY a marketing-led product, driven by executive corridor guys, and their secretary, telling "engineering" what they could sell...

Don't knock marketing (to death, anyway). If you've ever sat down with some customers, heard what they think they want, and thought "I could do that, but it would be better if...", then you've done marketing!

bestest,

M.

Edited by Matt Bacon
Ace-Garageguy MCM Ohana

Ace-Garageguy

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/14/2017 at 9:57 PM, Psychographic said:

Bill,

 As I feel like I fall into this category more than someone who builds for accuracy, I find this a bit insulting. I have very little invested in tools, and rarely build things that would work in the real world. I find my builds are more art than function.

David, what I SAID, and not what you're reading into it, is that the hobby encompasses EVERY level of involvement, investment, skill and approach. NOBODY was singled out to be dissed or insulted.

Your response to what I actually SAID is quite fascinating to me as well because YOU are one of my favorite builders. Your originality and feel for shape and line is right up there with some of the best custom-car designers around. I've never seen anything you've built that couldn't be made functional in 1:1 with some intelligent effort, either.

The stuff I was specifically referring to as non-functional-in-1:1 is exemplified by ground-scraping lowness with the tops of the wheels chopped off, just for a "look", or "gassers" with the noses so high they'd flip coming out of the gate, cars with hyper-stanced negative-camber suspension or no room in the wheel-wells for steering movement, etc. That kind of modeling is fine for anyone who wants to pursue it too. I didn't insult it, nor would I. I've seen some great looking models with flat tire tops, and some gasser-inspired models that were very well done and certainly work to be proud of...but it doesn't HAVE to appeal to ME, and I'm not going to be PC'd into saying I like a build style I don't particularly care for...even though I may really admire aspects of a particular build done in that style.

  On 1/14/2017 at 10:09 PM, StevenGuthmiller said:

I was mildly offended as well Bill.

This is a big hobby.

Everybody has there own thing & there's room for everyone.

And I'm surprised at YOU too, Steve. What you wrote above is exactly what the words I actually WROTE mean, if you read them literally and don't go looking for something the get hurt feelings over.

Again, your "offended"-ness surprises me for the same reason as David's did. You are also one of my favorite builders. The level of your finish and foil work on model after model just blows me away. If I can ever approach your level, I just MIGHT try to do something stock.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ONE MORE TIME...EVERYONE READ THE WORDS I WROTE. I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING THAT SHOULD OFFEND ANY MEMBER OF THIS BOARD...other than the ones who crave glowing attaboys for ill-fitting messes with grainy paint and glooey fingerprints on the windows.

I guess it's just symptomatic of the times we live in that everyone is looking for something to get butthurt about, all the time, everywhere.

I SAID: "These are the extreme ends of a spectrum that includes everything in between."

But you know what? I'm not offended. I'm just sick of it.

Ban me if it makes you all feel better.

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
StevenGuthmiller MCM Ohana

StevenGuthmiller

Posted
Posted
  On 1/14/2017 at 11:10 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

David, what I SAID, and not what you're reading into it, is that the hobby encompasses EVERY level of involvement, investment, skill and approach. NOBODY was singled out to be dissed or insulted.

Your response to what I actually SAID is quite fascinating to me as well because YOU are one of my favorite builders. Your originality and feel for shape and line is right up there with some of the best custom-car designers around. I've never seen anything you've built that couldn't be made functional in 1:1 with some intelligent effort, either.

The stuff I was specifically referring to is exemplified by ground-scraping lowness with the tops of the wheels chopped off, just for a "look", or "gassers" with the noses so high they'd flip coming out of the gate. That kind of modeling is fine for anyone who wants to pursue it too. I didn't insult it, nor would I. I've seen some great looking models with flat tire tops, and some gasser-inspired models that were very well done and certainly work to be proud of...but it doesn't HAVE to appeal to ME, and I'm not going to be PC'd into saying I like a build style I don't particularly care for.

And I'm surprised at YOU too, Steve. What you wrote above is exactly what the words I actually WROTE mean, if you read them literally and don't go looking for something the get hurt feelings over.

Again, your "offended"-ness surprises me for the same reason as David's did. You are also one of my favorite builders. The level of your finish and foil work on model after model just blows me away. If I can ever approach your level, I just MIGHT try to do something stock.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ONE MORE TIME...EVERYONE READ THE WORDS I WROTE. I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING THAT SHOULD OFFEND ANY MEMBER OF THIS BOARD...other than the ones who crave glowing attaboys for ill-fitting messes with grainy paint and glooey fingerprints on the windows.

I guess it's just symptomatic of the times we live in that everyone is looking for something to get butthurt about, all the time, everywhere.

But you know what? I'm not offended. I'm just sick of it.

Ban me if it makes you all feel better.

Didn't mean to get you worked up Bill.

You'll also notice in my post that I said that I was "mildly" offended.

I think it was more the way you said it than what you said.

I'm somewhat guilty of "accepting glaring scaling & proportion mistakes from the model manufacturing companies with no question", mostly because I really don't care that much.

It just sounds a little confrontational the way it was stated.

I have no interest in making any enemies here, including the OP, I just think we need to be a little more understanding of other hobbyists opinions that may not be the same as ours.

Now, that being said, let's get back to eviscerating Mark! ^_^

 

Steve

Xingu MCM Ohana

Xingu

Posted
Posted

I don't think eviscerating an actual member of the forum is allowed. I went back and reread the whole thread up to this point.....

I am glad this forum (including myself here) doesn't go after all new members this way. Whether we think it is warranted or not.

StevenGuthmiller MCM Ohana

StevenGuthmiller

Posted
Posted
  On 1/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, Xingu said:

I don't think eviscerating an actual member of the forum is allowed. I went back and reread the whole thread up to this point.....

I am glad this forum (including myself here) doesn't go after all new members this way. Whether we think it is warranted or not.

I don't think evisceration is warranted either, but it seems to be what he's getting anyway.

 

Steve

Psychographic MCM Ohana

Psychographic

Posted
Posted
  On 1/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, Xingu said:

I don't think eviscerating an actual member of the forum is allowed. I went back and reread the whole thread up to this point.....

I am glad this forum (including myself here) doesn't go after all new members this way. Whether we think it is warranted or not.

I consider the people of this forum family. So when some new member who hasn't ventured outside of a single thread, which by the way, is nothing short of self promotion tells my family to "leave", you can darn well expect me to go off on them.

Ace-Garageguy MCM Ohana

Ace-Garageguy

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/14/2017 at 10:51 PM, Matt Bacon said:

Well, that's me told... Just to speak up (briefly) for what I do, marketing isn't (or shouldn't be) advertising or sales. Nor is it just about asking customers what they want and building it, no matter how it turds out (see what I did there...?). Marketing should be about understanding what matters to customers, what problems the are trying to solve, or what needs they have that need meeting, and creatively, with passion, coming up with products that meet those needs. To take an example close to what we do, WingNut Wings is NOT only a product of passion. They looked at the WW1 modelling fraternity, which was previously served by small-scale kits, vintage Auroras, and a few 1/32 kits from Roden, mostly, and figured out that the kind of people who would model WW1 aircraft would want large scales (1/32), state of the art, made with love, and presented with a certain style...and actually weren't too bothered about the price, because the value per building hour was high. Add to that a USP in the shape of Peter Jackson, his 1:1 collection, replica chops, and Weta Workshop and you're onto a winner. On a different but 1:1 angle, the original Mustang was ENTIRELY a marketing-led product, driven by executive corridor guys, and their secretary, telling "engineering" what they could sell...

Don't knock marketing (to death, anyway). If you've ever sat down with some customers, heard what they think they want, and thought "I could do that, but it would be better if...", then you've done marketing!

bestest,

M.

Mr Bacon, "marketing" as you define above it is not at all what I was referring to, and I think you know that. 

The aspect of "marketing" I find useless and annoying is my mailbox and every webpage being filled with countless clamorings for me to buy this carp or that, stuff I wouldn't take if they were GIVING it away.

Another example...3M coated abrasives were once the best in the business, the hands-down industry standard. 3M was proud of the fact they spent a higher percentage of their revenues on product development and R&D than just about anyone else (which is pretty close to "marketing" as you defined it above) and it showed in the fitness of their products for the intended applications. But things have changed. I USE the products constantly, buy them out of my own revenue, and have a pretty good idea of the realities. 3M Marketing materials abound, overlapping product lines that do the same things are rampant, and much lower-cost alternatives (in the abrasives sector) that cut better AND last longer are available from other companies...but aren't heavily marketed. The people who use the alternatives have disregarded the hype, experimented with alternatives, and found superior performance for less money.

I STILL buy 3M's top-line masking tapes though, simply because they're STILL the best, period. But the cost is getting to be enough to make you swoon when you see the monthly material bill...and it isn't that high because it costs that much to make the stuff.  ;)

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
Ace-Garageguy MCM Ohana

Ace-Garageguy

Posted
Posted
  On 1/14/2017 at 11:54 PM, Xingu said:

I don't think eviscerating an actual member of the forum is allowed. I went back and reread the whole thread up to this point.....

I am glad this forum (including myself here) doesn't go after all new members this way. Whether we think it is warranted or not.

A non-modeler comes on here wanting free advice as to how to go about setting up a blog whose real eventual purpose is just to sell stuff to modelers? Probably not even model-related stuff, because the niche companies have no marketing budgets and everyone already knows the big ones anyway, and they already have a focused presence.

So, we're supposed to stand in line smiling to give quality information to somebody else who's real intent is to be making a buck on us by hawking Viagra and timeshares?

Nah.

Psychographic MCM Ohana

Psychographic

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/14/2017 at 11:10 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

David, what I SAID, and not what you're reading into it, is that the hobby encompasses EVERY level of involvement, investment, skill and approach. NOBODY was singled out to be dissed or insulted.

Your response to what I actually SAID is quite fascinating to me as well because YOU are one of my favorite builders. Your originality and feel for shape and line is right up there with some of the best custom-car designers around. I've never seen anything you've built that couldn't be made functional in 1:1 with some intelligent effort, either.

The stuff I was specifically referring to as non-functional-in-1:1 is exemplified by ground-scraping lowness with the tops of the wheels chopped off, just for a "look", or "gassers" with the noses so high they'd flip coming out of the gate, cars with hyper-stanced negative-camber suspension or no room in the wheel-wells for steering movement, etc. That kind of modeling is fine for anyone who wants to pursue it too. I didn't insult it, nor would I. I've seen some great looking models with flat tire tops, and some gasser-inspired models that were very well done and certainly work to be proud of...but it doesn't HAVE to appeal to ME, and I'm not going to be PC'd into saying I like a build style I don't particularly care for...even though I may really admire aspects of a particular build done in that style.

And I'm surprised at YOU too, Steve. What you wrote above is exactly what the words I actually WROTE mean, if you read them literally and don't go looking for something the get hurt feelings over.

Again, your "offended"-ness surprises me for the same reason as David's did. You are also one of my favorite builders. The level of your finish and foil work on model after model just blows me away. If I can ever approach your level, I just MIGHT try to do something stock.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ONE MORE TIME...EVERYONE READ THE WORDS I WROTE. I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING THAT SHOULD OFFEND ANY MEMBER OF THIS BOARD...other than the ones who crave glowing attaboys for ill-fitting messes with grainy paint and glooey fingerprints on the windows.

I guess it's just symptomatic of the times we live in that everyone is looking for something to get butthurt about, all the time, everywhere.

I SAID: "These are the extreme ends of a spectrum that includes everything in between."

But you know what? I'm not offended. I'm just sick of it.

Ban me if it makes you all feel better.

In no way did I feel singled out. I'm sure you're man enough to do so if you felt the need.

 

Now I'm only saying this as a friend, maybe it's your passion for cars, both 1:1 and models. You have a habit of coming of kind of crude (for lack of a better word) when you see something you don't agree with. The gasser thing is a perfect example, We all know by now that you hate seeing the term used for a build that doesn't fit the actual rules for one. But let's be honest, we are building models, not real race cars that need to follow the rues to be legal and fair to other competitors. After all it's just a name for a class of car.

I've never seen you complain that a Lowrider wasn't low enough.:lol:  Again I. think it's the passion you have.

 

Again a partial  quote but it is all that is needed to make my point. "I guess it's just symptomatic of the times we live in that everyone is looking for something to get butthurt about, all the time, everywhere." Seeing as you are replying to me and Steve, I have to assume that you are talking about us. After all we are the only two to say we found your post a bit offensive. Was I butthurt? I think it takes a lot more than that to really bother me. It's just I get tired of seeing people talked down to because of their ideas of what makes them happy as a modeler. If we all built the same things, this forum would be pretty boring. This quote was a perfect example of talking down to someone. I think Steve said it better than me, it's not what you say, but how you say it.

 

Now as far as my builds being able to be realistic, you need to look at my Jeep build again, font suspension arms at 90 degree angles where they mount, turbo's that are mounted vertically, an automatic transaxle on a solid rear that bounces up and down with the suspension.

 

In the end it's all good on this side.

 

This is a partial Quote so don't kill me for it.  "seem to expect overflowing praise for mediocre results"   You are assuming what other peoples expectations are, and possibly their skill levels.

Edited by Psychographic
Ace-Garageguy MCM Ohana

Ace-Garageguy

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 1/15/2017 at 12:54 AM, Psychographic said:

...We all know by now that you hate seeing the term used for a build that doesn't fit the actual rules for one. But let's be honest, we are building models, not real race cars that need to follow the rues to be legal and fair to other competitors. After all it's just a name for a class of car..

I'm going to say a few things, but I have no ill will towards anyone here, including you. I'm just getting tired of personalities getting triggered by nothing other than their own imaginations that cast me as some insulting, bullying, nasty old fart.

I've honestly never spent any time analyzing the potential functionality of your models, or I would have noticed the things you just pointed out. I don't really care if somebody else's model could really work or not. I've commented on several of your builds, and not once have I ever criticized a lack of potential functionality...or if I've mentioned it, I'm absolutely certain I did it in a "mentioning" sort of non-confrontational way, with no criticism intended or implied. If someone, anyone, wants to take my mentioning that something doesn't accurately reflect functionality as criticism, I really can't help it. I'm responsible only for what I actually say, not for how it's interpreted.

And yes, "gasser" is a word that describes a class of race-car, and words have meanings. When we arbitrarily decide that word meanings just don't matter anymore, we start down a slippery slope, but that's another topic for another forum.

Is it important for every model labeled "gasser" to accurately reflect the old class rules? No, and I've never tried to force down anyone's throat that they have to. Nor have I ever been "crude" about it. Or if you disagree, quote the "offensive" or "crude" posts, if you'd be so kind. What I have done is to remind a couple of builders, NON-CRITICALLY, that real gassers weren't built with their noses high in the air, and for very good reasons.

I've spent many hours here responding to technical questions about modeling and real cars from people who seemed to want more understanding and facts, as opposed to the typical internet gibberish frequently following "I heard" or "I think", that usually comes with absolutely no basis in first-hand experience or even 'book-learning'. 

Part of my passion for model cars and trying to correct misconceptions and foolishness comes from my passionate life-long relationship with REAL cars, and THAT, in turn, was kindled by building models when I was a kid. I learned from those models the names of parts and assemblies, and where things were located, so I had a basis to at least partially understand what I read about the REAL cars and trains and planes. My career was the ultimate result of model-car-building, and that's why for MY OWN work, I'm a stickler for function and engineering being accurately portrayed.

But I have NEVER been the one to initiate unkind criticism or name-calling...but, for pointing out somebody (including the kit-manufacturers) could have done something a little differently if they wanted to reflect reality accurately, I have been verbally attacked and called a "rivet counter", "know-it-all", "lacking in social skills" and any number of other unnecessary and unkind names when my only intent was to try to impart some accurate information when much of the world just doesn't give a damm about getting the details right. I've even been physically threatened via PM. One "adult" modeler actually stated he wished I would just die. Nice.

Yet you say I'm crude. Un frigging believable.

I've seen a lot of butthurt that's not the result of anything I've ACTUALLY said, but the result of somebody's INTERPRETATION of what I've said, and their apparent insecurity influencing their decision that I MUST be talking about them.

I'm beginning to feel I may have wasted much of the time I've taken out of my life to write these 15.000 posts, a great many of which were full of accurate and useful information not readily available elsewhere, and which was offered in the spirit of helping members of the community, and sharing knowledge gained through my own experience.

All for free, without trying to make a nickel on a single one of you with some damm click-bait blog.

It was my attempt to defend the community as a whole here, from some non-modeler I saw as simply wanting a free ride on our love of the hobby, and this carp is what I get for it. Typical.   :mellow:

Edited by Ace-Garageguy
Xingu MCM Ohana

Xingu

Posted
Posted
  On 1/15/2017 at 12:47 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

A non-modeler comes on here wanting free advice as to how to go about setting up a blog whose real eventual purpose is just to sell stuff to modelers? Probably not even model-related stuff, because the niche companies have no marketing budgets and everyone already knows the big ones anyway, and they already have a focused presence.

So, we're supposed to stand in line smiling to give quality information to somebody else who's real intent is to be making a buck on us by hawking Viagra and timeshares?

Nah.

No we don't just smile and give information, but we shouldn't have to be demeaning just because of what he is trying to do or the fact that he is a teenager. We should have taken the high road and just said this isn't the place for what you are trying to do.

Read back through this thread and see what it has deteriorated into. We have ended up against each other, for what we had to say and how we said it.

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