Only 18 Percent Of Americans Can Drive Manual. :(

[High octane]

Look where Ferrari put them on the 365 GTB4 Daytona. The 330 GTC and others use similar mountings. Even with the correct filters (which often the cars don't have when they come in), and procedure, you're almost always going to get a mess.

 

I don't think that I'll ever have to worry 'bout owning a Ferrari, although this one looks kinda nice............................

[crazyjim]

What Ferrari?

[GT4494]

The nice things about the VWs and Mercedes Diesels that I have is that the filters are replaceable element not canister type and sit just like the Ferraris.  You unscrew the top of the canister and lift the element out, drop a new one in and replace he top. 

The Germans do have some good ideas but it was too bad they didn't own Dodge long enough to incorporate many.  Now with FIAT owning Dodge heaven only knows how convoluted some things will get. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

The Germans do have some good ideas but it was too bad they didn't own Dodge long enough to incorporate many.  Now with FIAT owning Dodge heaven only knows how convoluted some things will get. 

Actually, Fiat built some pretty easy-to-service cars over the years. On the 128 and 124 series engines, some of the first in the world to use toothed "rubber" timing belts, you could change the belt in well under an hour...unlike most of the current production stuff from anybody.

And I agree that German cars do show a lot of thought, but they also lead the world in the overcomplication-for-no-good-reason movement, particularly Mercedes. The German-designed "new" Mini is a nightmare to work on, and has "better ideas" like plastic hydraulic cylinders. And do a timing belt on a Porsche 944 sometime. The Boxter / Cayman engines have a built-in self-destruct design flaw...but it makes blown-engine ones cheap, and the Chevy LS swap makes a real beast of a car.  

Edited May 29, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Tom Geiger]

I don't think that I'll ever have to worry 'bout owning a Ferrari, although this one looks kinda nice............................

I've never had an interest in Ferraris or other expensive exotics.  I've always found them to be obnoxious... like when Justin Bieber and some rap star got busted for drag racing their Ferrari and Lambo..  people with too much money and little if any sense!

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

I've never had an interest in Ferraris or other expensive exotics.  I've always found them to be obnoxious... like when Justin Bieber and some rap star got busted for drag racing their Ferrari and Lambo..  people with too much money and little if any sense!

Try driving one with an open mind. If you're a driver, you'll fall in love.

You don't HAVE to be an A-hole to own an exotic, and they're about the driving experience...if you approach life on YOUR terms and not somebody else's.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[High octane]

 

I've never had an interest in Ferraris or other expensive exotics.  I've always found them to be obnoxious... like when Justin Bieber and some rap star got busted for drag racing their Ferrari and Lambo..  people with too much money and little if any sense!

You seem to forget that money is for spending, and how people spend it is their business.

[espo]

Agreed 100%.

And if you really want to get your azz chapped, try being a mechanic and having to DRAIN the oil from those transmissions that no longer come with a drain plug in the pan prior to servicing anything internal. It's practically impossible to drain the fluid from these things without taking a bath in the stuff (in spite of what all the internet "experts" say).

Some early Smart cars came with no engine oil drain plugs either.

Pretty stupid, if you ask me.

Instead of just letting gravity do the job, you have to have a pump to get the fluid out cleanly. Another case of mindless over-complication for NO GOOD REASON...though there are plenty of "expert" justifications floating around too.

But then, cars today are designed mostly by people behind computer screens who don't open hoods and couldn't tell you what a wrench is for. Decision making is driven by cost-accounting and marketing, NOT competent engineering, and ease of servicing wasn't ever really high on the list of design priorities at most companies anyway...with some occasional delightful exceptions.

Every now and then, I'll get something in the shop that actually DID have somebody who'd obviously once worked on a car give a little thought to the poor SOB who'd have to fix the thing when it broke. Not often, but it happens.

Two cases in point:

1) The little Chrysler Corp. Neon has notches in the front wheel bearing carrier hubs so you can get the wheel studs out (and new ones in) when Bubba at the tire store inevitably strips them or breaks them off with his 300 lbft air wrench. Most manufacturers don't bother with the notches, and require disassembly of the front suspension to do the job.

2) The PT Cruiser initially required dropping the fuel tank to service the pump. Slightly later production versions actually included a small removable access panel in the rear floor to make the job easier.

(On the other hand, replacing the timing belt on the 2.4 liter PT Cruiser is one of the most needlessly difficult operations in the history of the automobile. Just an extra 1/2 inch here and an inch there could have made it a walk in the park...and I know it would have been easily possible to slightly modify the design with no additional cost to production. This is one of the reasons you'll see fewer and fewer PTs on the road. The third owner isn't going to bother to read about the required replacement interval in the owner's manual anyway, and if they DO, they'll be hard pressed to spend the $1000 to have the job done on a car that's only "worth" $1500. When the belt strips...and it WILL... the engine stops, and the little cars go to the crusher.)

This whole thing gets better. I wanted to service my transmission as the car had almost 60k miles and it started to shift differently. The dealer's Service Department and the Owner's Manual says 100k for service. In the past I have always serviced (oil & filter) my auto trans vehicles at 40k to 50k. There is two different transmissions for this model and nobody could tell me which one I had. I bought both service kits and ended up taking the one I didn't use back to the parts store. I have one very big advantage over the average guy trying to take care of there car, I have a four post 7500 lb. lift in my garage. As someone who has always serviced my own vehicles and we usually have had three or four cars and only three slots in the garage I managed to convince my wife this was a must have, and she agreed. Changing the oil was a real treat on this Charger. The plastic "skid plate" is just time consuming is all, but no drain plug on the pan turned into a mess as you can imagine. Once the sump was off the transmission everything else was straight forward and no problems except when it came time to fill the transmission. Remember the two different listed transmissions, universal cable to measure oil level.  The kit I used called for only four quarts of oil ? and the other required six quarts. I drained well over four quarts. Doing the refill I would start the engine after the four quarts and run it thru the gears and it didn't even show any oil on the cable. I kept adding oil until it showed full using five quarts. It shifts much better but it shudders on the 2-3 shift with less than 2000 rpm. Any higher rpm it work perfect. I love the car but I'm afraid I might not reach my usual 100k plus usage.   

[GT4494]

Actually, Fiat built some pretty easy-to-service cars over the years. On the 128 and 124 series engines, some of the first in the world to use toothed "rubber" timing belts, you could change the belt in well under an hour...unlike most of the current production stuff from anybody.

And I agree that German cars do show a lot of thought, but they also lead the world in the overcomplication-for-no-good-reason movement, particularly Mercedes. The German-designed "new" Mini is a nightmare to work on, and has "better ideas" like plastic hydraulic cylinders. And do a timing belt on a Porsche 944 sometime. The Boxter / Cayman engines have a built-in self-destruct design flaw...but it makes blown-engine ones cheap, and the Chevy LS swap makes a real beast of a car.  

the turbo 944 made for a bad porchechev also

[Mark]

The newer stuff is specifically designed so the average person can't work on it.  The primary considerations seem to be ease of assembly, and saving time on the assembly line.

After a couple of rounds of pins and bushings in one of the door hinges on my Dakota, I figured I'd bite the bullet and put in a new hinge.  The OEM piece isn't designed to be serviced (says so in the shop manual), and the pin/bushing sets you buy at the auto parts store are cheap junk anyway.  I bought a new "genuine Mopar" hinge without first looking at the shop manual which I have on CD.  I figured I might have to take off the front fender to get at the hinge bolts.  Nope, you have to take out the dashboard to get at the nuts from the back side!  On top of that, the hinge removal instructions in the shop manual refer you to another section for the dashboard removal, and that section got left out of the manual.  I'll try a collision shop; someone there has probably done this before, and would know if it can be done without pulling the dashboard out.

Someone mentioned pulling the gas tank on a car to service the fuel pump...my Dakota is like that too, and that includes the fuel filter.  My '88 Dakota had the filter outside the tank, on the inside of the frame rail.  But that one had the throttle-body FI setup which operated at lower pressure, so they could get away with tying the filter in with short lengths of rubber hose and a few hose clamps.      

[Ace-Garageguy]

The newer stuff is specifically designed so the average person can't work on it.  The primary considerations seem to be ease of assembly, and saving time on the assembly line...etc.

Someone mentioned pulling the gas tank on a car to service the fuel pump...my Dakota is like that too, and that includes the fuel filter.  My '88 Dakota had the filter outside the tank, on the inside of the frame rail.  But that one had the throttle-body FI setup which operated at lower pressure, so they could get away with tying the filter in with short lengths of rubber hose and a few hose clamps.      

Don't feel too bad about the door hinges. Many of them today are welded in (and have been in vehicles as far back as 1988 or '89...that I'm familiar with), and unless you have a VERY well set-up home shop, and skills, you're SOL. There are hinges out there that actually have holes for bolts made into the parts, but when the final assembly decisions were made, they decided to just weld 'em. You're right about speed of assembly being the primary design goal...but some of the just plain stupid designs almost defy belief (if you live in a rational universe). But I really don't believe the poor serviceability by the "average person" is "specifically" designed in. It's just lax engineering. The dealer and bodyshop guys hate the stuff as much as anybody does...because the service and repair procedures are so needlessly complex. 

There are vehicles out there now that pretty much require the body to be removed from the chassis in order to get the engine out. This is the kind of stuff that I have a hard time accepting as anything other than just plain stupid engineering (and it gets back to the fact that the engine is put in the chassis on the build line, before the body is dropped on, and nobody in design cared whether you could get it out again...). But remember, just because a man (or woman...have to be PC) has a degree in engineering, you have no guarantee he's a good engineer. (What do you call a doctor who just barely graduated with Ds in everything? A doctor.)

Far as fuel pumps go, there's absolutely no reason a high-pressure pump can't be mounted outside the tank with "rubber hose". That's the way we routinely set them up on high horsepower cars. I'm currently building a roughly 750HP big block Chevelle with direct port EFI. About 60psi in the fuel loop, external pump. No problem. We have another big-block car, a '69 Camaro, in the other shop getting throttle-body injection. Again, external pump, about 45psi in the fuel loop. 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Xingu]

I would not be surprised if some of these poor engineering decisions are because of some sort of government safety mandate. Some other engineer decided it would be better for everyone if there were no self-serviceable parts on your new vehicle.

[modelercarl]

Don't feel too bad about the door hinges. Many of them today are welded in (and have been in vehicles as far back as 1988 or '89...that I'm familiar with), and unless you have a VERY well set-up home shop, and skills, you're SOL. There are hinges out there that actually have holes for bolts made into the parts, but when the final assembly decisions were made, they decided to just weld 'em. You're right about speed of assembly being the primary design goal...but some of the just plain stupid designs almost defy belief (if you live in a rational universe). But I really don't believe the poor serviceability by the "average person" is "specifically" designed in. It's just lax engineering. The dealer and bodyshop guys hate the stuff as much as anybody does...because the service and repair procedures are so needlessly complex. 

There are vehicles out there now that pretty much require the body to be removed from the chassis in order to get the engine out. This is the kind of stuff that I have a hard time accepting as anything other than just plain stupid engineering (and it gets back to the fact that the engine is put in the chassis on the build line, before the body is dropped on, and nobody in design cared whether you could get it out again...). But remember, just because a man (or woman...have to be PC) has a degree in engineering, you have no guarantee he's a good engineer. (What do you call a doctor who just barely graduated with Ds in everything? A doctor.)

Far as fuel pumps go, there's absolutely no reason a high-pressure pump can't be mounted outside the tank with "rubber hose". That's the way we routinely set them up on high horsepower cars. I'm currently building a roughly 750HP big block Chevelle with direct port EFI. About 60psi in the fuel loop, external pump. No problem. We have another big-block car, a '69 Camaro, in the other shop getting throttle-body injection. Again, external pump, about 45psi in the fuel loop. 

 

I find your constant critical opinions of engineers as stupid, poor performing, dummies, etc. to be uncalled for.  Your constant negativity on this and many other professions indicates a lack of experience and knowledge about the design and manufacturing processes inherent in the automobile industry.  Design engineers are delegated to come up with a design that the marketing department says consumers will want to buy, purchasing departments say must be easily procured on a cost effective basis, safety department say will insure driver and passenger safety, federal and state standards, and manufacturing plants require the vehicle can be assembled with minimum labor costs, which often requires integration of robots.  There are many more constraints place on the design engineer but these are the prime constraints.

Your suggestion that an engineer that may not be a good engineer and is involved in the design of an automobile is absurd.  While I agree there may be engineers who have limited capabilities, these are quickly identified and relegated to menial support tasks if not dismissed for poor performance.

As a retired Director of Engineering in one of the worlds largest producers of high production machinery used worldwide by virtually every automobile and truck engine manufacturer, I have sat in meetings at the customer's facilities and witnessed first hand where the engineering staff has been directed by management to alter a design or use a design that was not favored by the engineers for a wide variety of reasons....sometimes against strong argument to not do so.

I was involved in a new transmission program at a major automobile manufacturer who was developing a new 6 speed automatic to be used worldwide in their small vehicle program.  To illustrate the problem engineers sometimes face in designing production equipment, this transmission was designed by a foreign "partner" and was to be produced in the US, Asia and Europe.  This required adherence to three different "regimes" and in addition the US plant was attempting to placate the UAW so they invited 15 UAW members off the production floor to be involved in the process.  Needless to say this complicated the engineer's effort to a large degree, resulting in decisions being adopted that after installation of the equipment had to be remedied so that more efficient production could be achieved.

I share these experiences with you to demonstrate that this type of non-engineering "interference" occurs all throughout the process of new product development, including initial product design.  Do engineers make mistakes?  Yes they do but through a rigorous review process most if not all are discovered and do not reach the customer purchasing the final product.  When you take into account the number of components involved in producing an automobile the efficiency of the engineering process is very impressive.

 

[Tom Geiger]

As cars have gotten more complex, they also have gotten more reliable and require a lot less service. I can understand a door hinge not being serviceable, IF new ones are available cheaply  (you cannot effectively repair a $50 part on a $75 labor rate)  AND it doesn't require major surgery to replace.  Auto makers are gambling that those welded on hinges will last the life of the vehicle without service, and may be right in a lot of cases.  But with owners like Mark and I who are going to push that vehicle through it's second and third time around the clock, that's when there are issues with parts that weren't engineered to be fixed or replaced actually breaking.  

My 1999 Plymouth Breeze had a leaky a/c evaporator.  $50 part jammed all the way under the dash, requiring removal of said dash to the tune of an $800 labor rate.  When you've got a car with 150,000 miles,  worth maybe $1-2,000 you aren't going to pay for that repair.  The first two seasons we added refrigerant and the leak was slow enough that it lasted through the air conditioning season. In the third season it did not, so the car was retired at 188,000 miles and bought myself another car with working a/c.  On the other hand my 1998 Breeze went 200,000 miles and the a/c still worked fine when the car died. 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I find your constant critical opinions of engineers as stupid, poor performing, dummies, etc. to be uncalled for.  Your constant negativity on this and many other professions indicates a lack of experience and knowledge about the design and manufacturing processes inherent in the automobile industry...

Your suggestion that an engineer that may not be a good engineer and is involved in the design of an automobile is absurd.  While I agree there may be engineers who have limited capabilities, these are quickly identified and relegated to menial support tasks if not dismissed for poor performance....

 

I share these experiences with you to demonstrate that this type of non-engineering "interference" occurs all throughout the process of new product development, including initial product design.  Do engineers make mistakes?  Yes they do but through a rigorous review process most if not all are discovered and do not reach the customer purchasing the final product.  When you take into account the number of components involved in producing an automobile the efficiency of the engineering process is very impressive.

You perhaps draw erroneous conclusions about my experience and having earned the right to criticize outright stupid designs.

Some engineers and mechanical designers are absolutely brilliant. Most are just doing it for a paycheck, and really don't care to excel, or make waves, or speak up for how something SHOULD be done. It's the same in every profession. It's part of the whole human condition.

For most of my professional life, I've functioned as a mechanical design engineer... not one who sits in meetings deciding who to delegate a task to, but the guy who identifies a problem, designs a solution, and then gets out in the shop and makes the parts to correct said problem, installs them, and tests them.

I'm well aware that marketing and cost accounting drive much of automotive and other product design, and if the engineers are so dammed good, they need to stand up and fight for their points as to how things OUGHT to be built...instead of being bullied down by marketers and bean counters. I still have to do it every single day, building custom and modifying high-end vehicles for clients who'd rather save a buck or two. But you know what the real difference is? If I sign off on something that I know is a POS, I have to fix it out of my own pocket if it fails. The buck stops with me, and that kind of changes your perspective.

I solve or correct engineering design problem after problem after problem after problem after problem, and I've been doing it on production cars, racing vehicles and aircraft for closing on 50 years. I've developed repair procedures for composite aircraft structures that the factories said couldn't be done, performed the work myself to verify the validity of the procedures, and achieved full FAA approval for the projects I was directly involved with as a primary engineer (AND the guy who actually performed the work).

When I see something done with insufficient thought, or that's unnecessarily difficult to repair, or prone to failure because specs weren't followed or too much costs were shaved, I'll call it as I see it.

People within the system typically fail to see (or refuse to see) that the emperor has no clothes, but I could fill a book as thick as Atlas Shrugged with instances of professional engineering mediocrity and overcomplication. Whether it's cost-accounting to blame, or just incompetence, it's real, and it's everywhere.

And it seems more and more to be the result, as I've said many times, of the people designing the stuff never having held a real, greasy tool, or had to change a part that COULD have been simple to get to, but is instead hidden under multiple layers of dumb decisions.

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

As cars have gotten more complex, they also have gotten more reliable and require a lot less service. I can understand a door hinge not being serviceable, IF new ones are available cheaply  (you cannot effectively repair a $50 part on a $75 labor rate)  AND it doesn't require major surgery to replace.  Auto makers are gambling that those welded on hinges will last the life of the vehicle without service, and may be right in a lot of cases.  

Far as hinges go, stop and consider the collision repair industry. When a car gets punched in the door, or heavily sideswiped, the hinges are often toast. When they're welded to the structure, they're much more difficult (and costly) to replace correctly. So, several things happen. The insurance company bean counters look at the rising costs to repair, and everyone pays more for insurance. Welding has to be done on the car that might otherwise be unnecessary. If the technician forgets to properly isolate all the onboard electronics prior to welding, a voltage spike may damage a component that fails prematurely down the road, leaving your wife sitting in front of a speeding semi in a car that won't go. Or the tech might not get the new hinge aligned absolutely correctly, because the hinge has to go on in one place exactly...because there's NO built in adjustment. So, your door never closes right again, or leaks water, or wind. You dislike your was-brand-new-car, and trade or sell it at a loss, much sooner and taking a harder financial hit than you would have if you'd kept it because its hinges simply bolted back on.

See? Everything is connected, and saving a few pennies per vehicle during manufacture can have ripple-effect costs that are almost incomprehensible to the average mind.

Yeah, today's cars are damm fine appliances. But with a little KISS theory applied, they could be a whole lot better.

[Mark]

As cars have gotten more complex, they also have gotten more reliable and require a lot less service. I can understand a door hinge not being serviceable, IF new ones are available cheaply  (you cannot effectively repair a $50 part on a $75 labor rate)  AND it doesn't require major surgery to replace.  Auto makers are gambling that those welded on hinges will last the life of the vehicle without service, and may be right in a lot of cases.  But with owners like Mark and I who are going to push that vehicle through it's second and third time around the clock, that's when there are issues with parts that weren't engineered to be fixed or replaced actually breaking.  

My 1999 Plymouth Breeze had a leaky a/c evaporator.  $50 part jammed all the way under the dash, requiring removal of said dash to the tune of an $800 labor rate.  When you've got a car with 150,000 miles,  worth maybe $1-2,000 you aren't going to pay for that repair.  The first two seasons we added refrigerant and the leak was slow enough that it lasted through the air conditioning season. In the third season it did not, so the car was retired at 188,000 miles and bought myself another car with working a/c.  On the other hand my 1998 Breeze went 200,000 miles and the a/c still worked fine when the car died. 

 

I'm still going to have a collision shop guy look at the thing, but I might attack it from another angle.  The hinge itself is still "good"; that is, the door still pivots on it without any slop that I can see.  It's the complicated little two/three stage check device that has worn through the bushings, causing the thing to sound like it is cracking its knuckles every time I open/close the door.  The off-the-rack bubble-pack replacement parts from the auto parts store are junk, extremely cheap/soft metal. 

I might wind up disassembling the new piece and swapping the door-check parts onto the original hinge.  I hate the idea of disassembling a brand new part and not using half of it.  I'm just trying to avoid "jiggle the handle" fixes and little annoyances that pile up.  Whether intentional or not, those little things piling up do cause a lot of otherwise good vehicles to get junked.  The average guy can't fix much of it, the dealer charges too much with the idea of "hey, for XXX per month you can be driving a new one", and so on.  I've only owned three go-to-work vehicles since 1979.  The first one went over 200,000 (rust finally got it), second one went 180,000 and I saw someone driving it three years after I sold it.  This one still runs good, the only things I see killing it are if the (manual) transmission takes a dump (try finding a replacement), or if it doesn't pass emissions at some point.  Even that shouldn't happen; the catalytic converters are part of a unit with the Y-pipe, and that had to be replaced two years ago... 

[Mark]

Quick update, for anyone who cares...

...yesterday I went to a collision shop near work, one my employer uses and trusts.  The guy there looks at it, checks his crash estimating program, and tells me there's no mention of pulling the dashboard...it's a one-hour job.  So either my shop manual or his estimating program is wrong.  I'll let him do the job...if his info turns out to be wrong and I tear into the job, then I'm seriously jammed up...

[Tom Geiger]

Far as hinges go, stop and consider the collision repair industry. When a car gets punched in the door, or heavily sideswiped, the hinges are often toast. When they're welded to the structure, they're much more difficult (and costly) to replace correctly. So, several things happen. The insurance company bean counters look at the rising costs to repair, and everyone pays more for insurance. 

Very true Bill. I hadn't considered collisions in that response.  I drive on the NJ and PA Turnpikes daily and am amazed at the tractor trailer loads of nearly new cars with minor collision damage on these loads... obviously totalled out by their insurance companies.

It's been said that auto companies engineer cars to be trouble free for the original owner. Back in the old days there were people who traded in every year. The average car loan was 2 or 3 years.  Then it went to 5, and now I see people buying cars on the 6 or 7 year plan. According to research by R.L. Polk Company the average new car owner keeps a car 6 years.  

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by Tom Geiger

[Mark]

My nephew sells new cars, and I've heard him talk about people taking out 96 month loans.  I've never done more than 48 months, and that's only because I had to take 48 to get the zero percent financing that went with it. 

Eight years for a car?  I paid my house off in 13...

[Tom Geiger]

I like the one easy payment plan. That's how I bought my two current cars!

[Dodge Driver]

Quick update, for anyone who cares...

...yesterday I went to a collision shop near work, one my employer uses and trusts.  The guy there looks at it, checks his crash estimating program, and tells me there's no mention of pulling the dashboard...it's a one-hour job.  So either my shop manual or his estimating program is wrong.  I'll let him do the job...if his info turns out to be wrong and I tear into the job, then I'm seriously jammed up...

I'd be interested to see if the shop can do that. I thought the dash roll-down procedure was required for upper hinge replacement.

I have a '98 Dakota service manual. The dash roll-down procedure is in there should you get stuck.

[MrObsessive]

You guys have me curious now about door construction on newer vehicles. Next time I'm outside and about to go somewhere, I'll have to check the doors on my Challenger. I DO believe the hinges are welded to the cowl structure, and not bolted on like in the old days. 

In fact, I'm gonna get nosy right now and take a quick look and snap a pic.............

EDIT:

OK, I just went outside to the back of the house where I park and snapped a few pics............

Lower hinge..........

I can't feel any bolts that would normally pass through this bracket if it were bolted on so indeed it must be welded.

You learn something new everyday! And yes, heaven forbid if the car would get hit in this area............that would be one very expensive fix!

Edited June 3, 2017 by MrObsessive

[Mark]

I'd be interested to see if the shop can do that. I thought the dash roll-down procedure was required for upper hinge replacement.

I have a '98 Dakota service manual. The dash roll-down procedure is in there should you get stuck.

I'll find out Thursday when I drop it off... 

[Dodge Driver]

 

I'll find out Thursday when I drop it off... 

I'll keep my fingers crossed in hopes that it works out!