Cooling system for a blown altered

[Andrew McD]

I am currently laid up having recently had reconstructive surgery on my left foot and ankle.  It's frustrating not to be able to get to the model bench right now but it's leaving lots of time for planning multiple projects.  I've been reading the incredible wealth of information available in the forums and finding inspiration for yet another project every time I turn a page.  The problem there is that when I can't sleep at 4AM and distract myself with perusing these projects for some odd reason packages keep showing up a few days later with various models and supplies.  Yes, folks, the stash keeps growing.  LOL

Getting to the point.  I have one of the Revell '29 Model A roadsters that has been a popular build in these forums.  Actually I have two, the new and the old release.  The new release has the warped windshield issue that other forum members have reported.  My solution is to do away with the windshield all together and build this as an altered drag car with this pic being a rough idea of what I have in mind.

I've got some spoked front wheels and a moon fuel tank on order.  

I'm a bit puzzled about what to do for a cooling system, if anything.  I know they didn't run radiators and fans but was there any coolant in the engines at all?  If so did they use some sort of holding tank for the coolant with a water pump?  Any advice would be appreciated. 

 

[Mark]

There was coolant in the block, but it didn't circulate.  They would fire up just before each run, and shut off at the end of the run, the engine might run for a minute or so (if that) with plenty of time to cool back down before the next pass.

[Ace-Garageguy]

The answer depends entirely on the specific car, the time period represented, and the car-builder's approach.

Some classes of drag cars have been evolving away from running cooling systems from the wayback, with many of today's drag-racing engines having solid machined-from-billet blocks and heads, with zero provisions for any kind of cooling internally.

In the past, one common setup on this type of car would be a coolant "manifold" bolted to the front of the heads or block, with a pressure cap between them.

Drain provisions were provided on the block. 

With the cars usually pushed to the line, prolonged cooling at idle was not at issue, so coolant wouldn't necessarily be required to circulate.

Hot coolant could be easily drained and replaced between runs...if that's what the builder and crew chief wanted.

BUT...some cars ran water tanks, with electric or engine-driven pumps circulating coolant. Some cars ran nothing but "expansion" or "overflow" tanks.

Again, the specific car and time period will dictate what's correct.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY and ACCURACY

[Ace-Garageguy]

The car in the photo below appears to have a water line coming from the front of the block, to what appears to be a small fill/expansion tank under the blower drive gear housing (and presumably a similar line going to the other side of the block).

There is also what appears to be a coolant drain fitting low on this side of the block.

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

...In the past, one common setup on this type of car would be a coolant "manifold" bolted to the front of the heads or block, with a pressure cap between them.

 

Study the panel labeled CHRYSLER ENGINE DETAIL ASSEMBLY, in the FIAT ALTERED COUPE instructions appearing in the right upper quadrant of the AMT double-dragster instruction sheet depicted below.

Note part #24:

[Dave G.]

Hey I built one of those Fiats back in the 1960's, pretty sure it's the same model anyway !

I know a blown alcohol dragster owner/driver that filled his blocks with concrete back in the later 1970's..  I wonder if he's still alive, I'm 71 and he was 10 or so years older than me,could have passed on by now.

[4mula1fan]

That's what I remember as well. Concrete filled heads and blocks. 

[gtx6970]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:36 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

The car in the photo below appears to have a water line coming from the front of the block, to what appears to be a small fill/expansion tank under the blower drive gear housing (and presumably a similar line going to the other side of the block).

There is also what appears to be a coolant drain fitting low on this side of the block.

Thats the fuel line ,from cam driven fuel pump to the fuel tank set inside the radiator shell

I cant think of any altered that ran a water pump of any kind back then

[BubbaBrown]

A local guy who ran alcohol dragster told me overheating was never a problem, alcohol is cool running.

 

[Andrew McD]

Thanks guys for the responses.  This info gives me something to go on.  It agrees with my recollections from attending the dgagstrip as a kid spectator in the ‘60s that cooling systems were minimal to nonexistent.

[Andrew McD]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:44 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

 

Study the panel labeled CHRYSLER ENGINE DETAIL ASSEMBLY, in the FIAT ALTERED COUPE instructions appearing in the right upper quadrant of the AMT double-dragster instruction sheet depicted below.

Note part #24:

Thanks Bill, from a modeling standpoint this is particularly useful.

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 hours ago, gtx6970 said:

Thats the fuel line ,from cam driven fuel pump to the fuel tank set inside the radiator shell

I cant think of any altered that ran a water pump of any kind back then

We're not talking about the same thing.

The fuel feed line from the tank to the pump is dark gray, and there is a black line from the pump up to the injection barrel valve. There is also a black return line running from the pump to the tank...but the line I was referring to ain't fuel.

Look closely and you'll see a silver line running from the front of the block under the front of the head, just forward of the headers, from what looks like a red-painted 90deg. fitting screwed into the block...probably at a freeze-plug location.

The silver line makes a 90deg. turn into the front of the intake manifold, where there's a coolant passage on a Chevy smallblock. At the 90deg., it also appears to possibly T into a line that continues on to a mystery object under the blower-drive gear housing.

I said the whole mess appears to be a crossover line with a fill cap on it...what I'm assuming might be the mystery object...between the water jackets on the block.

And I never said the car ran a water pump.

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY and ACCURACY

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:51 PM, Dave G. said:

I know a blown alcohol dragster owner/driver that filled his blocks with concrete back in the later 1970's...

 

On 11/26/2021 at 6:08 PM, 4mula1fan said:

That's what I remember as well. Concrete filled heads and blocks. 

Water jackets were (and still are) filled with "concrete" or other materials (like Devcon epoxy filled with aluminum powder) primarily in an effort to reinforce engine blocks, particularly cylinders, from distorting and cracking while containing vastly more horsepower than they were designed to handle. People tried all kinds of odd stuff, like polyester resin, grout, etc.

In the mid '80s, a material called HardBlok came out. It's still used.

[gtx6970]

From what I can remember seeing some had plates that blocked off the water pump openings in the block altogether ( maybe solid filled )

Some had some kind of piping that ran from side to side with a radiator cap on them to at least put some kind of coolant in them,,, maybe for between rounds cool down  sessions

 

I tried to blow up the ops pic but it gets to grainy to really such much detail

[alan barton]

Andrew, I've never seen that roadster before but it is awesome!  What a cool car from my favourite period of drag racing.

I don't know how accurate to the photo you are intending to build but if you want those bobbed fenders on the rear looking right, the existing fender opening on the Revell kit is radiused 2-3 mm higher than stock.  The easy way to fix this is to trim the fender well section of one of the interior trim panels and then cut file and sand until it fits into the opening with that extra thickness left on the top.  A touch of super glue, a bit more sanding and you are back to factory stock contours.

Cheers and good luck with your roadster

alan

 

[Skip]

Early Dragsters, Altereds - Liquid coolant in block expansion tank.

Early 60’s Dragsters, Altereds - Liquid coolant in block with or without expansion tank, moving towards filling the block with concrete grout.

Later 60’s & Post Fuel Ban Dragsters, Altereds, Funny Car - Almost exclusively concrete grout filled block, with some holdouts still filling blocks with liquid coolant.

70’s Onward - Dragsters, Funny Cars, Altereds - Iron Block Cars - Nearly all cars ran with concrete grout filled blocks, fewer and fewer were running liquid coolant.  Aluminum Block cars solid billet no cooling passages.

My high school girlfriend’s dad ran AA/FD, I started hanging around the shop in about 69 through 75 when I left for college.  I know they  ran grout in all their Mopar based iron blocks.  I know this because I helped mix it a few times as they were filling the blocks. 

[Andrew McD]

On 12/3/2021 at 10:28 PM, alan barton said:

Andrew, I've never seen that roadster before but it is awesome!  What a cool car from my favourite period of drag racing.

I don't know how accurate to the photo you are intending to build but if you want those bobbed fenders on the rear looking right, the existing fender opening on the Revell kit is radiused 2-3 mm higher than stock.  The easy way to fix this is to trim the fender well section of one of the interior trim panels and then cut file and sand until it fits into the opening with that extra thickness left on the top.  A touch of super glue, a bit more sanding and you are back to factory stock contours.

Cheers and good luck with your roadster

alan

 

Alan - Thank you for the detailed help on how I might implement the bobbed fenders.    I am still on the fence as to how closely I may try to replicate the car in the photo.  Most of my builds are pretty much OOB as I try to develop some skill with assembly and consistency in painting technique.  Having said that I am going to push my limits on this build in an effort to build something representative of what was my favorite period in drag racing.  
Further thanks to all that have contributed to this thread.  I just can’t say enough about how impressed I am with the quality and quantity of information and the generosity of spirit with which it is provided.