'Duel' movie truck question: wheel/tire size

[robdebie]

I just had the AMT Peterbilt 359 California Hauler delivered, that I want to use to build the 'Duel' movie truck.

One question to start with. The kit comes with Firestone 10.00x20 tires. I seem to remember that director Spielberg had bigger tires mounted, maybe 11.00-22s, to make the truck look more menacing. Maybe I heard in one of the YouTube videos about the truck? Does anyone know?

Rob

[stitchdup]

you might find something here

https://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_5148-Peterbilt-281-1955.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel_(1971_film)

https://www.tenfourmagazine.com/2014/09/special-features/the-duel-truck-10-years-later/

i didn't see any mention about 22 wheels in any of these articles but i just skimmed through them rather than read them so i could easily have missed those details

[robdebie]

Les, thanks for the links. It lead me to a three-part interview with Spielberg, but no mention of the wheels.

Maybe it's possible to judge the tire size from how they fill the front fender? Here are four screen shots of the original 281, not the 'extra' 351 used for additional scenes.

Rob

[peteski]

Others on the forum have build that truck. Maybe they would have the info you're looking for?

http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/166201-what-you-do-not-want-to-see-in-your-rear-view-mirror

http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/161128-50th-anniversary-duel-truck

[DRIPTROIT 71]

I have seen Brad Wike’s truck in person several times. The truck has been completely changed to 22.5 tubeless drives or maybe even 24.5” and the Page and Page single drive has been swapped out for tandem drive. The front wheels are 22” with 22/ 10:00 tires. One thing that I noticed on the trailer is that the tires are mix matched. One axle has 24” tires and the other 22” tires. I’m not sure how original they are but they are definitely old. To me the wheels on the truck in the movie look like 22” as well. Look at the front wheels and the distance between the lugs and the edge of the rim. It definitely looks bigger than 20” to me. Zoom in and you can see the size.

Edited May 6, 2023 by DRIPTROIT 71

[Force]

First of all, Brad Wike's truck was indeed originally built for the movie as the main truck started to act up, but it was never used, and for the extended scenes they used a 351.
I have not seen anything about wheel sizes in my researches so far but the front wheels on Brad's truck looks to be split ring rims so they are either 20 or 22 inch, the rears are tubeless 22.5 or 24.5.
On the primary 281 truck wich was destroyed at the end of the movie the wheels are old split ring wheels all around and by the looks of it the could have been 22 inch wheels, the wheels are also mix matched so there are different rims on all positions except for the front axle, same for the tank trailer.
The front axle has the diamond shaped 5-hole wheels on both sides but different colors, the drive axle has one aluminum 5-hole wheel on the drivers side and the tag axle had a steel 5-hole wheel, the passenger side was the opposite, 5-hole aluminum wheel on the tag axle and 5-hole steel wheel on the drive axle, the tank trailer had 6-hole steel wheels on the front axle and 5-hole steel wheels on the rear, there was wery little tread on the tires and the patterns was also mix matched.
The truck was not flat brown as Brads truck is, the main 281 truck used in the movie was originally a light gold color with lots of weathering, the engine was either a Cat 1673 or a 1674, I have seen both stated at different places and 1673B is most likely what was in the truck, and a 13 speed trans, the air cleaner was from a Cat 966 loader, the rear suspension was Page & Page 60/40 with one drive axle and a tag axle, the Fruehauf trailer had no landing legs and much points to it could have had Fruehauf's torsion bar suspension, but I'm not sure on that one as I can't see it on any of the pictures or in the movie itself..belive me, I've tried as I stepped the final crash frame by frame but it's too dusty to be able to see.

[Bugatti Fan]

I did a build article that appeared in the magazine a few years back that might help if you can get a back issue.

The model was built some years before the article was printed and I used the kit wheels on the front steering that I subsequently found to be incorrect.

 

[robdebie]

15 hours ago, stitchdup said:

you might find something here

https://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_5148-Peterbilt-281-1955.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel_(1971_film)

https://www.tenfourmagazine.com/2014/09/special-features/the-duel-truck-10-years-later/

Peteski, thanks for the leads! I did not find information on the wheel / tire sizes, but I did learn something important. In builds with the kit's tires, they look too small compared to the overall truck, or the cabin height to mention a specific part of the truck. My conclusion is that 10.00-20's are too small for the movie truck.

Rob

[robdebie]

12 hours ago, DRIPTROIT 71 said:

I have seen Brad Wike’s truck in person several times. The truck has been completely changed to 22.5 tubeless drives or maybe even 24.5” and the Page and Page single drive has been swapped out for tandem drive. The front wheels are 22” with 22/ 10:00 tires. One thing that I noticed on the trailer is that the tires are mix matched. One axle has 24” tires and the other 22” tires. I’m not sure how original they are but they are definitely old. To me the wheels on the truck in the movie look like 22” as well. Look at the front wheels and the distance between the lugs and the edge of the rim. It definitely looks bigger than 20” to me. Zoom in and you can see the size.

Brian, that's a great tip, to compare the size of the lugs circle to the edge of the rim! Never thought of that. Is there a way to figure out that lug diameter? Thanks too for the details of the Brad Wike truck.

Rob

[robdebie]

6 hours ago, Force said:

First of all, Brad Wike's truck was indeed originally built for the movie as the main truck started to act up, but it was never used, and for the extended scenes they used a 351.
I have not seen anything about wheel sizes in my researches so far but the front wheels on Brad's truck looks to be split ring rims so they are either 20 or 22 inch, the rears are tubeless 22.5 or 24.5.
-snip-

the Fruehauf trailer had no landing legs and much points to it could have had Fruehauf's torsion bar suspension, but I'm not sure on that one as I can't see it on any of the pictures or in the movie itself..belive me, I've tried as I stepped the final crash frame by frame but it's too dusty to be able to see.

Håkan, many thanks for all the details, many of which I hadn't noted yet! They are all noted. It will be an involved build, what have I done ?

Rob

[robdebie]

6 hours ago, Bugatti Fan said:

I did a build article that appeared in the magazine a few years back that might help if you can get a back issue.

The model was built some years before the article was printed and I used the kit wheels on the front steering that I subsequently found to be incorrect.

Noel, thanks for the lead. But customs tightened their nets, and anything imported from outside the EU has become very expensive..

Rob

[robdebie]

An additional question: do you think the tires from AMT's Parts Pack PP028 'Semi tractor 'tall tires' 11.00-22' would be suitable?

I deciphered 11.00-22 as an 11" wide tire body on a 22" diameter wheel. Standard aspect ratio is (was?) 88 percent, making a 41.4" diameter tire. Theoretically that would make 42.0 mm in 1/25 scale. In a product description I found a 42.3 mm outer diameter, 24.8 mm inner diameter and width 13.0 mm.

The tires in AMT's California Hauler are Firestone 10.00x20 tires (as read on the tires). Theoretically that would make 38.2 mm diameter and 10.2 mm width in 1/25 scale , but I measure 41.1 mm diameter (129 mm circumference) and 11.2 mm. Therefore the Parts Pack tires would not be that much larger, but they would look a bit beefier.

Are there bigger tires to be found in other kits?

Rob

 

 

 

 

[robdebie]

2 hours ago, robdebie said:

Brian, that's a great tip, to compare the size of the lugs circle to the edge of the rim! Never thought of that. Is there a way to figure out that lug diameter? Thanks too for the details of the Brad Wike truck.

Rob

Here's a first test of that idea. I drew circles at the rim edge, bolt outer side and bolt inner side, averaged the latter to find the bolt pattern diameter. It's expressed as a percentage of the rim diameter for the moment. The second and third measurements agree nicely, the first one doesn't.

The there's the height of the tire retaining lip, that adds to the rim diameter. I consulted a Dutch reference from 1961 (Steinbuch), and it lists 50.8-51.0 mm (i.e. 2 inch) for 10.00W-20 wheels. But I have no idea whether that number is correct for US trucks. It also list the bolt pattern diameter for 10.00W-20 wheels: 275 mm for an 8 bolt pattern, and 335 mm for a 10 bolt pattern. There's a note that these values are for European mainland trucks. The numbers translate to 10.82" and 13.19" respectively, sounds un-American to me..

Ignoring the question marks, and taking 335 mm / 13.19" for the bolt pattern, the total rim size would be 1/.44 = 2.273 times the bolt pattern, makes 29.97". Deduct two times 2 inch for the tire retaining lip, and I get ~26". That can't be right..

Using the first photo measurement, the total rim size would be 1/.526 = 1.901 times the bolt pattern, makes 25.08". Deduct two times 2 inch for the tire retaining lip, and I get ~21". That's closer, but doesn't tell whether it's a 20" or 22" wheel.

Back to the drawing board. First find that bolt pattern diameter for US wheels.

Rob

Edited May 6, 2023 by robdebie

[Bugatti Fan]

Rob. In answer to your question I simply do not know anything really about the wheel sizes. it was such a long time ago (back in the 80's) I built my model and I simply used the kit wheels.

I just happened to spot in pictures of the real truck well after I had built the model that the front wheels were slotted instead of having a number of circular holes in them.

Just out of interest, there is a small cottage industry UK company named M&G Mouldings who husband and wife Michael and Georgina Gannon run from home. They have been making resin cast wheels and other items for truck modellers for years so have a look at their website and you may find something that you are looking for.

[robdebie]

6 minutes ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Rob. In answer to your question I simply do not know anything really about the wheel sizes. it was such a long time ago (back in the 80's) I built my model and I simply used the kit wheels.

I just happened to spot in pictures of the real truck well after I had built the model that the front wheels were slotted instead of having a number of circular holes in them.

Just out of interest, there is a small cottage industry UK company named M&G Mouldings who husband and wife Michael and Georgina Gannon run from home. They have been making resin cast wheels and other items for truck modellers for years so have a look at their website and you may find something that you are looking for.

Noel, thanks for the lead! I went to their website, but they have closed shop.. I've accepted that I'll probably 3D print the wheels I want, that is easier (and cheaper) than trying to find them in resin..

Rob

[robdebie]

56 minutes ago, robdebie said:

Back to the drawing board. First find that bolt pattern diameter for US wheels.

For current 10-bolt US wheels, I keep finding 11.25" or 285.75 mm. Using that figure plus the 44% from the photo analysis, I get 11.25" / .44 makes 25.6". Deduct two times 2 inch for the tire retaining lip, and I get ~21.6". That's close to the 22" I was guessing. Finally something that makes sense.

Question remaining is why the left-side photo analysis gives such a different number. I'm baffled by that one.. Any ideas?

Brian, thanks again for the idea!

Rob

Edited May 6, 2023 by robdebie

[Bugatti Fan]

Rob. Thanks for your reply as I was not aware of M&G closing.  3D printing will probably be the best way to go.

Another UK company that comes to mind is Kitform Services. They started with civilian truck items and went almost completely over to military in 1/24th scale. I believe that they are under new ownership and may be re introducing some civilian truck items again.

[robdebie]

25 minutes ago, Bugatti Fan said:

Rob. Thanks for your reply as I was not aware of M&G closing.  3D printing will probably be the best way to go.

Another UK company that comes to mind is Kitform Services. They started with civilian truck items and went almost completely over to military in 1/24th scale. I believe that they are under new ownership and may be re introducing some civilian truck items again.

Noel, thanks again! A club member is a regular customer. I just checked their wheels section, but I don't see Duel-style wheels. Plus their standard scale is 1/24, which could be problematic with a 1/25 scale tires.. But it does give me the chance to fit tires that are a tad larger ?

Rob

[stitchdup]

34 minutes ago, robdebie said:

Noel, thanks for the lead! I went to their website, but they have closed shop.. I've accepted that I'll probably 3D print the wheels I want, that is easier (and cheaper) than trying to find them in resin..

Rob

you could try modellersresource.co.uk as they do a load of older truck parts. Theres also a store in holland but its name is escaping me just now

[Bugatti Fan]

Rob, yes I had forgotten that the Duel I built was 1/25th and not 1/24th so KFS would have nothing compatible.

[robdebie]

1 hour ago, stitchdup said:

you could try modellersresource.co.uk as they do a load of older truck parts. Theres also a store in holland but its name is escaping me just now

Les, thanks too for that lead. I just checked the wheels and tires section, but no luck.

A shop in the Netherlands? I'm not familiar with the truck model scene in the Netherlands, I mostly build aircraft.. Maybe Tom's Modelauto's?

I'll start drawing my own wheel(s) in 3D tonight ?

Rob

Edited May 6, 2023 by robdebie

[Force]

The closest wheel available is the Tyrone Malone Truck Mate wheels for Malone's transporters from Moluminum, the problem there is that the front wheels has a hub cap on them.
I'm on the hunt for these front wheels with diamond shaped holes myself.
One thing to keep in mind when it comes to measuring wheel diameter is that it's measured at where the tire bead sits, not at the outer ring, so it's pretty much where the wheel disc meets the lock ring.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Force

[robdebie]

1 hour ago, Force said:

The closest wheel available is the Tyrone Malone Truck Mate wheels for Malone's transporters from Moluminum, the problem there is that the front wheels has a hub cap on them.
I'm on the hunt for these front wheels with diamond shaped holes myself.
One thing to keep in mind when it comes to measuring wheel diameter is that it's measured at where the tire bead sits, not at the outer ring, so it's pretty much where the wheel disc meets the lock ring.

I looked up the Moluminum wheels, and they are close indeed. But no wheel size is listed..

Your comment that the wheel diameter is measured where the tire bead sits is noted, that's why I added two times 2" (from Steinbuch) for what I call the tire (bead) retaining lip. There's probably a better description for that, but I'm not a native speaker ?

Rob

[Force]

4 minutes ago, robdebie said:

I looked up the Moluminum wheels, and they are close indeed. But no wheel size is listed..

Your comment that the wheel diameter is measured where the tire bead sits is noted, that's why I added two times 2" (from Steinbuch) for what I call the tire (bead) retaining lip. There's probably a better description for that, but I'm not a native speaker ?

Rob

Me neither, I'm Swedish, but I have learned it's called tire bead where the tire sits on the rim inside the outer lip.
I have the Moluminum wheels and they are meant for the AMT Tyrone Malone transporters and the tires in the AMT KW K100 Aerodyne regular kits wich are the same except for the transporter body are 11.00-22.

[robdebie]

Here's a first version of the Duel truck front wheel in 3D. It needs to be refined. I think I will use the tires from the AMT PP028 Parts Pack.

Rob