440 Engine question?

[slusher]

would a 440 Big block be more fuel efficient and faster with modern fuel injection then the 6 pack carbs?

[Steamboat]

It would almost certainly be more fuel efficient.  The main reason the auto makers went to fuel injection was to maximize fuel efficiency and emissions.  An additional benefit is that it is much more driver friendly than a carburetor.  Just turn the key and go.

FI might or might not be faster.  Several episodes of Engine Masters have dealt with the issue of carbs vs. fuel injection and have shown that a properly adjusted carburetor makes just as much horsepower as fuel injection, as long as it is not restricting air flow.  The 6-pack had really good air flow.  If I remember correctly it was like 1350 cfm.

[Bainford]

Yes.

[Ace-Garageguy]

The only real power advantage modern fuel injection has over carbs is that, IF IT'S SET UP RIGHT, EFI can maintain a more accurate fuel-air ratio over the entire rev range than a carb can, which translates to flatter power and torque curves, which CAN mean more usable horsepower at every RPM, rather than the particular rev range a particular carb setup is optimized for.

EDIT: EFI is also very good at compensating for variations in ambient-air temperature, atmospheric pressure (air density...and which some mechanical injection units manage to do with a calibrated baseline reference 'aneroid capsule' in the linkage), coolant temperature, engine load, etc.

But peak horsepower at a given RPM where any engine is pumping most efficiently will be the same, or very close, with properly tuned EFI or carbs.

Note however that this is not always the case. The car world is full of as many poorly tuned EFI setups as poorly tuned old carb setups.

Edited April 19 by Ace-Garageguy

[slusher]

I am. Getting ready to build my Cannonball Super Bee 🐝 I am seriously thinking of doing Fuel Iinjection and letting the 440 breathe..

[Mike 1017]

This is what I would go with if I had a 1:1. You get the best of both worlds the look and the performance.

Fitech 413-440 6 Pak Fuel Injection Kit (manciniracing.com)

Mike

Edited April 17 by Mike 1017
wrong word

[CaddyDaddy]

If you're staying at relatively the same RPM, i.e. circle track, I'm going with a carb. If you are varying the RPM, i.e. street/strip, I'm going with fuel injection.

[Keef]

11 hours ago, slusher said:

I am. Getting ready to build my Cannonball Super Bee 🐝 I am seriously thinking of doing Fuel Iinjection and letting the 440 breathe..

Fuel injected 440 6pak for the win!! 😎

[Mothersworry]

Fuel injection is all good and well...progress I suppose, nuthin wrong with that. But I fondly remember the sound that my '70 Super Bee would make when the front and rear carbs would kick in...divine music.

[StevenGuthmiller]

14 hours ago, Mothersworry said:

Fuel injection is all good and well...progress I suppose, nuthin wrong with that. But I fondly remember the sound that my '70 Super Bee would make when the front and rear carbs would kick in...divine music.

I agree.

Let old cars be old cars, and new be new.

 

I've said it before, but in my opinion, a large part of the charm and nostalgia of an old car is the way that they run, handle, and ride.

Everybody today seems to want their classic car to react exactly like their 2024 Ford Explorer.

I don't understand it myself.

I love the sound and feel of my '69 GP!

To start modernizing it is to completely obliterate it's allure.

 

 

 

Steve

[Can-Con]

3 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

I agree.

Let old cars be old cars, and new be new.

 

I've said it before, but in my opinion, a large part of the charm and nostalgia of an old car is the way that they run, handle, and ride.

Everybody today seems to want their classic car to react exactly like their 2024 Ford Explorer.

I don't understand it myself.

I love the sound and feel of my '69 GP!

To start modernizing it is to completely obliterate it's allure.

 

 

 

Steve

I can see a mod such as that in the interest of driveability. I'm not keen on having to let the T/A warm up in the morning before I take it on the road ,, and the carb was set up by one of the best, if not THE BEST Quadrajet guys in the province. 

What could never understand though was swapping out dashes. 

I remember several cars in Custom Rodder and Hot Rod Magazine among others back in the '80s where the owner swapped out S-10 dashes and the like. One I particularly remember was a '57 Chevy hardtop with said S-10 dash. If I had an old car from the '50s or '60s I'd want to be looking out over the original dash, not something out of a bland newer vehicle.😉

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Can-Con said:

I can see a mod such as that in the interest of driveability. I'm not keen on having to let the T/A warm up in the morning before I take it on the road ,, and the carb was set up by one of the best, if not THE BEST Quadrajet guys in the province. 

What could never understand though was swapping out dashes. 

I remember several cars in Custom Rodder and Hot Rod Magazine among others back in the '80s where the owner swapped out S-10 dashes and the like. One I particularly remember was a '57 Chevy hardtop with said S-10 dash. If I had an old car from the '50s or '60s I'd want to be looking out over the original dash, not something out of a bland newer vehicle.😉

One thing that I’ve always hated was the propensity for many people to replace original interiors with generic looking tan leather throughout.

In my opinion, one of the most endearing and coolest aspects of most old cars is the character of the interior treatments.

Replacing a vibrant ‘55 Chevy interior with it’s wide variety of colors, textures and materials with a drab, monochrome, tan leather interior is a sin as far as I’m concerned.

For as much time as most guys spend in the driver’s seat of their classic car, it can’t possibly be that detrimental to their delicate behinds to have to sit on vinyl for a little while.

As far as having to let my Grand Prix warm up for a little while, I’m fine with it.

I’m in no hurry whatsoever when I’m taking it out for a drive.

 

 

Steve

Edited April 18 by StevenGuthmiller

[Ace-Garageguy]

I like pie.  

[slusher]

Thanks guys I am on the fence…

[Big_John]

20 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I like pie.  

Mmmm.... Pie...

But back to the subject....  

I've owned a couple cars with the 440 6bbl setup (Plymouths were 6bbl, Dodge was Six Pack) and worked on a few others.  I put ~75K miles on my A12 Roadrunner back when they were just cars. That included back and forth to work and the grocery store etc. I drag raced the other one. 

The setup is simplicity at its best. You run around on the center Holley 2300 2bbl carb until you hit the gas and the end carbs opened up. The secret to making them run was staying simple and not straying too far from the factory setup. The 2300 Holley was about as complicated as an anvil... In fact that carb was used (just one LOL) on quite a few economy type cars in the 60's. 

So, IMHO, while the FI is nice, but really it overcomplicates things.  Yea, you can tune and match fuel curves and all that stuff, but the simplicity of the carbs wins out for me.... Then again, I'm an analog type old guy...  

This pic was from the late 70's.. Sold this car after I got married the first time. In hindsight, it would have cheaper to stay racing. It sits behind the guy's house and I'm told it the frame and floor is completely rusted away. No, it was not a real A12 or 440-6bbl car.  Basically stock engine with headers and a different cam, this car would do 11.70s in this trim. 

This one was a real A12 and a friend owns it now. This car got driven everywhere! My friend drives it a lot now too. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Big_John said:

The setup is simplicity at its best. You run around on the center Holley 2300 2bbl carb until you hit the gas and the end carbs opened up. The secret to making them run was staying simple and not straying too far from the factory setup. The 2300 Holley was about as complicated as an anvil... In fact that carb was used (just one LOL) on quite a few economy type cars in the 60's. 

So, IMHO, while the FI is nice, but really it overcomplicates things.  Yea, you can tune and match fuel curves and all that stuff, but the simplicity of the carbs wins out for me.... Then again, I'm an analog type old guy...  

100% in agreement...and you can fix 'em by the side of the road. If your EFI quits, you're going home in the cab of a wrecker.

Though I've done a fair number of EFI builds to date, for my own '32, I'm going with a 3X2 carb setup on an old-school SBC double-humper 327...only concession to modernity being roller cam followers because there have been so many somewhat unexplained flat-tappet and cam failures recently....and though I already have the necessary Rochester 2Gs, I'd really like to find an NOS Barry Grant/Demon "Six-Shooter" setup just for the looks. Lotta guys don't like 'em, but as far as my experience goes, they're basically just Holley semi-clones, and work every bit as well.

Edited April 19 by Ace-Garageguy

[Big_John]

55 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

100% in agreement...and you can fix 'em by the side of the road.

Though I've done a fair number of EFI builds to date, for my own '32, I'm going with a 3X2 carb setup on an old-school SBC double-humper 327...only concession to modernity being roller cam followers because there have been so many somewhat unexplained solid lifter and cam failures recently....and though I already have the necessary Rochester 2GCs, I'd really like to find an NOS Barry Grant/Demon "six-shooter" setup just for the looks. Lotta guys don't like 'em, but as far as my experience goes, they're basically just Holley semi-clones, and work just as well.

I've never fooled around with any of the Barry Grant carbs. These carbs  look like they have accelerator pumps on all the carbs and a mechanical linkage as I think the Rochester setup did.  The Mopar setup was venturi vacuum controlled with no accelerator pumps on the outboard carbs. The Corvette Tri-Power Holley setup was very similar. 

I've looked into the EFI for a couple cars and I decided the learning curve was just a tad too steep for me. Carbs are just simpler and for a car with limited use, the "bang for the buck" just isn't there for me.  Of course, I've been called crazy for liking my Carter Thermoquads LOL! 

The cam failures are perplexing. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the failures. It seems like it isn't just one company. My personal thoughts are that all these cam grinders are buying offshore built cores and I'll even bet that they are coming from the same place.  I don't think they have the hardening correct.  I have a solid lifter Isky cam for the 273 I'm building for my Barracuda and I'm just hoping that it works out ok. 

So '32 Ford? A '32 Highboy was on my bucket list for a long time...  I seem to have gotten over it, but I still lust over them when I see one I like.  

 

 

[CaddyDaddy]

Ah yes.......wiping out lobes on a solid lifter camshaft. Know the problem well! My experience has been having it occur on initial start-up, right after a rebuild or new cam installation. Seems like if you can get past the first 10 minutes, you’re in the clear.

Hemmings posted an article a little ways back. Seems that they attribute the problem to the way that motor oil is now formulated. Supposedly, it’s different then “back in the day”. Of course, Hemmings is now selling their own motor oil, so take that into consideration.

[1930fordpickup]

On 4/17/2024 at 9:49 AM, slusher said:

I am. Getting ready to build my Cannonball Super Bee 🐝 I am seriously thinking of doing Fuel Iinjection and letting the 440 breathe..

Being this is a "race" across the country how much time do you have to stop and adjust the carbs while driving at 120 mph?  I understand this is all fictional but EFI would be the way to go for this application. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, 1930fordpickup said:

Being this is a "race" across the country how much time do you have to stop and adjust the carbs while driving at 120 mph?  I understand this is all fictional but EFI would be the way to go for this application. 

Carbs and linkage in good condition that are properly set up in the first place should be able to make it across the country flat out with no problem.

The race-winning car at the 1966 LeMans 24 hour race, for instance, covered over 3000 miles at an average speed of over 125 MPH.

Edited April 20 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 4/19/2024 at 8:41 PM, CaddyDaddy said:

Ah yes.......wiping out lobes on a solid lifter camshaft. Know the problem well! My experience has been having it occur on initial start-up, right after a rebuild or new cam installation. Seems like if you can get past the first 10 minutes, you’re in the clear.

Hemmings posted an article a little ways back. Seems that they attribute the problem to the way that motor oil is now formulated. Supposedly, it’s different then “back in the day”. Of course, Hemmings is now selling their own motor oil, so take that into consideration.

Camshaft and lifter failures were a fairly common problem when the new generation of OHV V8 engines hit the American market in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

Both American camshaft metallurgy and lubrication technology advanced rapidly, to the point where it became a non-issue.

ZDDP is a zinc-based additive specifically developed to combat rapid wear between highly-loaded sliding surfaces like are found between 'flat' cam followers (tappets) and cam lobes.

ZDDP has been phased out of "normal" consumer motor oils because of its adverse effects on catalytic converters, and that is one of the reasons every engine manufacturer and his dog went to roller followers some time ago.

ZDDP-containing additives and oils are available specifically for older flat-tappet non-cat-equipped engines, and "high zinc" break-in products are available for new builds.

Sadly however, even when aftermarket cam manufacturer's break-in instructions are followed to the letter, using the most magic of the additives, lobe and lifter failures still occur, mostly during break-in, as you mention.

The odd part is that it's generally not ALL the cam lobes or lifters that go...indicating sporadic deficiencies in the metallurgy or surface treatment along the length of offshore-produced cam blanks, or that not all of the lifters in a given set were made and finished to spec.

It would seem that some engineering problems that were solved 70 years ago are beyond some of today's capabilities. 

 

 

Edited April 21 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[1930fordpickup]

57 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Carbs and linkage in good condition that are properly set up in the first place should be able to make it across the country flat out with no problem.

The race-winning car at the 1966 LeMans 24 hour race, for instance, covered over 3000 miles at an average speed or over 125 MPH.

I just figured with the difference between elavation, and other conditions between the 3000 mile treck would be different than a closed coarse even a long one. So that even the best carb adjustment would not be the same along the way. Would there not be enough of a difference with just a car running along the way?  Just asking Bill because this is your department for sure, trying to learn something here.

[Ace-Garageguy]

52 minutes ago, 1930fordpickup said:

I just figured with the difference between elavation, and other conditions between the 3000 mile treck would be different than a closed coarse even a long one. So that even the best carb adjustment would not be the same along the way. Would there not be enough of a difference with just a car running along the way?  

The elevation changes and weather along the route are valid concerns, as you always tune a race carb for the specific atmospheric conditions at any given track, and EFI working correctly "self adjusts" for varying conditions.

But the answer is "it depends". It depends on several factors, like how high is the highest mountain pass a contestant would have to navigate, and what is the specific weather forecast along the route.

Although EFI would unquestionably give the most exact fuel/air ratio for any combination of air density and temperature, I've driven carbureted vehicles cross-country many times (granted, not at racing speeds), and I've never had to stop to tune a single engine.

If I were running the Cannonball, I'd probably prefer the side-of-the-road repairability of carbs. If EFI quits, you're pretty much done, and you can't win if you can't finish the event.

Then again, carrying spares like injectors, sensors, and an ECM pre-calibrated to the specific engine setup and configured to swap quickly could solve that potential problem quite nicely.

It all really comes down to personal taste and the contestant's temperament.   

 

Edited April 20 by Ace-Garageguy
TYPO

[1930fordpickup]

Thanks Bill. 

[JollySipper]

Carl, I'm glad you asked this question! I'm finding the replies very informative..... I was taught in highschool auto tech that FI was superior to carburetors because it offered crisper throttle response, better efficiency, and has fewer parts to fail........ I guess it all boils down to personal preference? Me, I like the idea of an old MoPar or such having an EFI setup, but I enjoy seeing restomods. Carbs are cool, too, though........ the more the better!