Coming Soon from Atomic City's JoHan line of new kits

[Dave Van]

22 minutes ago, Luc Janssens said:

Incredible isn't it, that in a decade or so, we went from; Oh no, the tooling is lost or can't be run! To just clone a mint kit!

If the ROI is there, the sky is the limit!

?

 

JUST STAY TUNED.....................?

[mikos]

7 hours ago, Luc Janssens said:

Incredible isn't it, that in a decade or so, we went from; Oh no, the tooling is lost or can't be run! To just clone a mint kit!

If the ROI is there, the sky is the limit!

?

 

Now we just have to fix that pesky ROI excuse.  Since we now know clone kits do not cost $250k to tool up according to Steve G. at Round 2 or need to sell in the hundreds of thousands like in the old days, we just need to pick the best subject matter from each manufacturer and run with it.  I think having some of those old classic Oldsmobiles, Cadillacs, Mopars and American Motors models back again would be great.  The made to order resin stuff offered through Facebook is nice, but the price point is steep and leaves a lot of people who like to build those models out of the picture.  $35-$40 in styrene is a lot better than $150+ for resin with no chrome/vacuumed formed glass.  Just my $.02.
 

 

[stavanzer]

27 minutes ago, mikos said:

Now we just have to fix that pesky ROI excuse.  Since we now know clone kits do not cost $250k to tool up according to Steve G. at Round 2 or need to sell in the hundreds of thousands like in the old days, we just need to pick the best subject matter from each manufacturer and run with it.  I think having some of those old classic Oldsmobiles, Cadillacs, Mopars and American Motors models back again would be great.  The made to order resin stuff offered through Facebook is nice, but the price point is steep and leaves a lot of people who like to build those models out of the picture.  $35-$40 in styrene is a lot better than $150+ for resin with no chrome/vacuumed formed glass.  Just my $.02.
 

 

Start Writing Checks, Buddy. Why wait for someone else to do it........

[bobthehobbyguy]

10 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

Start Writing Checks, Buddy. Why wait for someone else to do it........

Or buy lottery tickets. Just don't see that there's that much money to be made for such limited appeal niche kits.

[Motor City]

8 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

Or buy lottery tickets. Just don't see that there's that much money to be made for such limited appeal niche kits.

I'm sure a lot of modelers would be interested in the '67 to '70 Eldorado, some of the deVilles, the 442s, Toronados, 300s, Furys, '70 GTX and Road Runner, '68-'70 Javelins, and AMXs.  Not everyone wants to build every iteration of Camaro, Chevelle or Mustang.

[Luc Janssens]

Even when winning the lottery, I do wish to stay in business and not crash and burn after a few great kits, which everyone had to have, but in the end, only a few hundred ended up buying

So my hat off to everyone in the business trying to keep the momentum going....

Cheers

 

 

[thatz4u]

56 minutes ago, Motor City said:

I'm sure a lot of modelers would be interested in the '67 to '70 Eldorado, some of the deVilles, the 442s, Toronados, 300s, Furys, '70 GTX and Road Runner, '68-'70 Javelins, and AMXs.  Not everyone wants to build every iteration of Camaro, Chevelle or Mustang.

people have paid stupid money for some of these on Ebay.....

[bobthehobbyguy]

Sorry ebay prices are not an indication of sales.

Two things must be determined.

One what will the cost of cloning the kits be?

Second what are the potential sales volume?

Finally can there be a return on investment. If no it's not going to happen.

[Mark C.]

While all of these discussions are great, at the end of the day we all vote with our wallets, and the folks who are actually in the business and want to stay there will know what makes money and what doesn’t.

While I  enjoy discussing all the different kits I’d like to see, I have to say that I am more than happy with the state of the hobby these days, in that we get to see kits that I never would have dreamed of just 10 years ago.  If it takes 40 different iterations of Camaros and Mustangs to do so, then “have at it”!  I will get some of those as well.

I wish the folks at Atomic all the success that they deserve.  Even if I can’t afford their products at the moment, there is a market for them and I hope they can continue to grow their business.  If they actually get to the point (and I don’t know if that’s their intention) of producing regular plastic Jo-Han kits someday, I will be over the moon, and will buy all that my budget allows.  In the meantime, I will say “keep up the good work!”, and continue to watch from the sidelines… ??

[bobthehobbyguy]

If you look at Round2 has cloned they are subjects with a reasonably broad appeal. The GTO, Malibu,  the Nova Wagon, and the Coronet. Can you really say that some of the Johan kits will have the same appeal.

This discussion is meaningless without real world numbers. 

 

Edited August 24, 2024 by bobthehobbyguy

[Justin Porter]

I absolutely could see sustained sales of model kits of a '64 Cadillac Coupe DeVille, of a '71 AMC Javelin, or a '68 Oldsmobile Toronado.

The Cadillac is a car that will appeal hugely to the lowrider set. Why release a kit that isn't engineered with poseable suspension ala the Revell '64 Impala or the AMT '70 Monte Carlo?

What's the point of having a Javelin kit on the market that doesn't even match the fit and detail of the now 35 year old Revell '69 Camaro, let alone their '71 Mustang or '68 Firebird. 

The Toronado is going to give the most appeal to factory stock builders. Why release a kit that isn't a good shelf match for AMT's '66 Riviera?

The biggest sales potential for these subjects does not lie in reviving old tooling in order to scrape the bottom of a 50+ year old nostalgia barrel but in new tooling that will suit the tastes and expectations of modern builders. 

[bobthehobbyguy]

7 minutes ago, Justin Porter said:

 

The biggest sales potential for these subjects does not lie in reviving old tooling in order to scrape the bottom of a 50+ year old nostalgia barrel but in new tooling that will suit the tastes and expectations of modern builders. 

The advantage of doing new tooling would be allowing more than one version to be produced which would make a better opportunity for a reasonable return on investment. Although cloning might be cheaper I think it would be more difficult to generate the sales to generate a ROI.

[Brian Austin]

Who's gonna tool up a '59 Studebaker Lark?  ?

[Luc Janssens]

14 hours ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

The advantage of doing new tooling would be allowing more than one version to be produced which would make a better opportunity for a reasonable return on investment. Although cloning might be cheaper I think it would be more difficult to generate the sales to generate a ROI.

Cloning is new tooling, for instance, or argument's sake, one takes the original annual kits of the Jo-Han '69 and '70 Plymouth GTX/Roadrunner. 

Now you can copy and improve both kits and create tooling where both or more versions can be ejected from.

IMHO it doesn't stop there, cuz one doesn't need to clone all the parts that came in these original kits, just look what Ertl did the old-fashioned way back in the '90s, combining two sets of tooling from two different kits to re-create the '70 Dodge Coronet. Now one can mix and match parts from other kits, clone and adapt, or design all new to incorporate in all-new tooling.

It's like kit bashing but in the design phase.

Comments welcome.

 

[bobthehobbyguy]

When I said new tooling I mean starting from scratch. Turning a promo chassis to mulipiece would be a challege.

From hour round 2 example where would Johan get a detailed cha@is for the Roadrunner or for the Javelin.

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by bobthehobbyguy

[Motor City]

Jo-Han bodies and the later interiors were very accurate.  Those parts could be cloned and then tool all-new chassis and engine compartment to provide the detail that modelers expect from a new kit.

[bobthehobbyguy]

If just the body and interior is kept that means that the one piece glass would have to be kept and you wouldn't have the nice interior tub with separate side panels. 

However until someone can show the actual tooling cost and projected sales this is all meaningless speculation. I still think it's going to be hard to get a ROI.

[Luc Janssens]

An old friend, one of the original Kats once said the following to me;

"the human mind is like a parachute- it really only works when it's open"

I try to follow his motto, and dispense ideas, possibilities....

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luc Janssens

[bobthehobbyguy]

All I know is without knowing what the cost are and the sales volume it cannot be determined whether there is a ROI. No company can afford to lose money or not  it just that simple.get a ROI and stay in business.

[Justin Porter]

3 hours ago, Motor City said:

Jo-Han bodies and the later interiors were very accurate.  Those parts could be cloned and then tool all-new chassis and engine compartment to provide the detail that modelers expect from a new kit.

By the time an engineer has redesigned the initial 3D scan so that the body has separate wipers, door handles, sharper panel relief, is symmetrical side for side (which many of the old hand pantographed kits are not), the thickness is re-engineered to fit the new chassis and interior, headliner detail is added, and any molded in headlight/taillight buckets are removed so that separate chrome pieces can be used, how is 3d scanning an old body a time saving move for designing a new modern kit?

And keep in mind, I am NOT talking about a state of the art kit like an Aoshima Pagani Zonda or Ebbro Citroën DS or Tamiya GMA T.50. I'm talking about just equalling the tooling efforts of 30 years ago with kits like Revell's '69 Camaro and AMT's '67 Mustang GT.

[Luc Janssens]

56 minutes ago, Justin Porter said:

By the time an engineer has redesigned the initial 3D scan so that the body has separate wipers, door handles, sharper panel relief, is symmetrical side for side (which many of the old hand pantographed kits are not), the thickness is re-engineered to fit the new chassis and interior, headliner detail is added, and any molded in headlight/taillight buckets are removed so that separate chrome pieces can be used, how is 3d scanning an old body a time saving move for designing a new modern kit?

And keep in mind, I am NOT talking about a state of the art kit like an Aoshima Pagani Zonda or Ebbro Citroën DS or Tamiya GMA T.50. I'm talking about just equalling the tooling efforts of 30 years ago with kits like Revell's '69 Camaro and AMT's '67 Mustang GT.

It seems to work for Round2, all the scanned parts were designed to eject out off the tooling, thus easier to rework than start from scratch.

Anyway, I would love to sit down with Steve Goldman at his desk at Round2, discuss and share ideas on what all is possible with showing examples. Maybe someday!

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luc Janssens

[Luc Janssens]

Oops

Edited August 25, 2024 by Luc Janssens

[Justin Porter]

1 hour ago, Luc Janssens said:

It seems to work for Round2, all the scanned parts were designed to eject out off the tooling, thus easier to rework than start from scratch.

Anyway, I would love to sit down with Steve Goldman at his desk at Round2, discuss and share ideas on what all is possible with showing examples. Maybe someday!

 

Quick check. 

Nova Wagon - molded wipers and door handles

'71 Demon - molded wipers and door handles

'64 Olds 442 - molded wipers and door handles

'68 Coronet - molded wipers and door handles

'68 GTO - molded door handles

I specifically outlined modifying older tooled bodies so that they conformed to the detail expectations of modern tooled kits. I also pointed specifically to detail expectations consistent with industry standards that have been in place since the late 80's when we began to see kits like the Monogram 1959 Cadillac Eldorado (first released in 1989 making it a 35 year old kit).

It only works for Round 2 because Round 2 isn't bringing these kits up to an appreciable modern standard. 

 

[Luc Janssens]

12 hours ago, Justin Porter said:

Quick check. 

Nova Wagon - molded wipers and door handles

'71 Demon - molded wipers and door handles

'64 Olds 442 - molded wipers and door handles

'68 Coronet - molded wipers and door handles

'68 GTO - molded door handles

I specifically outlined modifying older tooled bodies so that they conformed to the detail expectations of modern tooled kits. I also pointed specifically to detail expectations consistent with industry standards that have been in place since the late 80's when we began to see kits like the Monogram 1959 Cadillac Eldorado (first released in 1989 making it a 35 year old kit).

It only works for Round 2 because Round 2 isn't bringing these kits up to an appreciable modern standard. 

 

In that respect you're absolutely right, the question then is; would it or is it a deal breaker?

I guess the proof is in eating the pudding and you will be first-line in getting the data.

 

BTW just checked the stash, and both the Revell '69 Camaro H/T and the Amt/Ertl '67 Mustang F/B have molded-in wipers and door handles, which to me personally are not so much a deal breaker. than the missing of grille detail on the Monogram '59 Cadillac bumper grille part, which is not on par with the rest of what is a truly nice kit.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Luc Janssens
Research

[iBorg]

I think the concept of scanning and recreating an original kit is not the right way to do it. If you can create the files for a resin printer, I'm certain those same files could be used to create dies with the right software. That ability more than likely lowers the cost to bring a model to the marketplace.