Hyundai has gone too far against "right to repair"; spread the word

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

[Jim N]

This is sad.  These manufacturers are doing everything they can to take ownership from the consumer.  The consumer buys something and then becomes totally reliant on the manufacturer for any repairs.  Then they set up the gatekeepers and the other intermediary companies so that money is transacting between parties.  This is all to make it so that when a legislative body finally wakes up to the problem, there is too much money being made and legislation is impossible, or if passed, is so weak it does nothing.  The end result is that the consumer always gets hosed.

[thatz4u]

One more car NOT to buy..

[meechum68]

Oh look a car I had no interest in, and now have no interest in. I'll stick to my old 1980-90's trucks.  

[Brutalform]

What’s next? They gonna make it unlawful to buy a used vehicle? Wouldn’t surprise me one bit. 

[SSNJim]

2 hours ago, Brutalform said:

What’s next? They gonna make it unlawful to buy a used vehicle? Wouldn’t surprise me one bit. 

It's been tried before. If memory serves, the recording industry had a fit over second-hand CDs. 

[Rodent]

I didn't have much respect for Uncle Tony to start with, but the things he said about NASTF were somewhere between uninformed and outright ignorant. They are definitely on the side of the independent repair shops and locksmiths. ETI (Equipment and Tool Institute) as well. Without their support and lobbying, and work with the manufacturers, independent repair shops wouldn't be able to work on newer cars, and "smart" keys would be dealer-only items.

I understand secure gateways, but I am a little surprised that Hyundai didn't supply a hack to retract the rear calipers without a scan tool. Most cars with electric parking brakes have a sequence of some type that puts the calipers in service mode.

[sfhess]

9 hours ago, thatz4u said:

One more car NOT to buy..

For a lot of people, it's another reason not to purchase one.

[Ace-Garageguy]

11 hours ago, Rodent said:

I didn't have much respect for Uncle Tony to start with, but the things he said about NASTF were somewhere between uninformed and outright ignorant. They are definitely on the side of the independent repair shops and locksmiths. ETI (Equipment and Tool Institute) as well. Without their support and lobbying, and work with the manufacturers, independent repair shops wouldn't be able to work on newer cars, and "smart" keys would be dealer-only items.

I understand secure gateways, but I am a little surprised that Hyundai didn't supply a hack to retract the rear calipers without a scan tool. Most cars with electric parking brakes have a sequence of some type that puts the calipers in service mode.

Kinda funny how for all those decades prior to NASTF, all the service data was available globally, with no insane fees to access it, shortly after vehicles were released for production.

My bookshelves are groaning under the weight of countless sets of FACTORY manuals I bought for every kind of vehicle that came into any of my shops more than a couple of times before all this craziness began, and my scan tools are up to date as far as I can go without paying out stupid money.

The push against right-to-repair by manufacturers in the car industry is finally bringing the backlash to a head.

The latest move by Hyundai has sparked outrage across the web among people who are actually affected by this stupidity, and I'm one of them.

It's gone way beyond anything rational, parts are so moronically designed to unnecessarily interface with onboard computers that do NOTHING but add layers of complexity, cost the moon, and aren't available half the time anyway...

It's time for it to end. Period.

Owners of vehicles being prevented from doing basic repairs and maintenance on vehicles they bought and paid for is just plain wrong, and the exorbitant costs to smaller shops will drive many of them to the wall...in effect creating a repair monopoly controlled by the manufacturer's dealer networks.

EDIT: And IMHO, NASTF is just one more layer of useless, obstructionist complication. Nothing but another NGO "regulatory agency" with no skin in the game, positioned to acquire and hold on to power, while raking off bucks for doing nothing but getting in the way.

Here's one locksmith's opinion, and I rather doubt he's in the minority.

 

Edited Saturday at 02:08 PM by Ace-Garageguy

[RSchnell]

I deal with collision damage everyday at work. While I seldom stray into the new car(post 2000) portion, when I do it amazes me all the calibrations & scans that need to be done on most modern vehicles. Pre-scan, in process scan, post scan, calibration front radar, calibration rear proximity sensors, etc etc etc. A bad wheel sensor can throw off the whole ECM and make it throw other codes that aren't even related.

Even my 2019 VW if I don't drive it much it'll throw a random code here & there. I work from home & all my shopping stores are within a mile or two of the house. I've found I need to drive it a few miles about once a week to keep the electronics happy. Just a good excuse to run down the beach to get a Cheesesteak sammich!

 

[maxwell48098]

So this guy is talking about replacing the rear brake pads on a Hyundai Ionic 5 electric vehicle.  I've worked in the automotive service retail and OEM business for 45 years, before retiring back 20 years. The vehicle mentioned is an Ionic 5,all electric vehicle going for somewhere between $50-$60,000.  My question, who/why replaces just the rear brake pads on any vehicles any more after spending that much money on the car to begin with?  What percentage of those buyers are DIY any more?

 

Has anyone considered the cost that the dealership service departments are required to spend on specialized diagnostic and repair tools, software and regular updates, as well as training every year to keep up with technology advances?  

 

A.J.

[Brutalform]

I get that the dealers must keep up with the diagnostic equipment and what not. But at my Nissan dealership, they want $250 just to plug the code scanner in. A little ridiculous IMO. Years ago before OBD 2 and 3, you could buy a scanner (actually a plug in cartridge) at the auto store, for $59. When all you really need to do is simply jump the terminals at the port. So there is some smoke and mirrors going on. 

[maxwell48098]

The diagnostic tool available at the dealership is far more sophisticated and comprehensive than what you get at an auto parts store or the OBD scanners available in the aftermarket. Aftermarket standardized OBD2 scanners come with a variety of features, and it’s important that the operator is familiar with them and the vehicle to get the most out of the scanner.  The aftermarket scanners have limited functionality and may not be compatible with all vehicle systems or failure modes. Also remember that the OBD scanners are limited to systems related to vehicle emissions, and their diagnosis only identified the portion of the system where the problem is located and not the specific component or things like wiring, connectors, etc.  The dealership level tool also does far more than just OBD-related systems or components.

 

A.J.

 

[milo1303s]

On 12/6/2025 at 2:10 PM, RSchnell said:

I deal with collision damage everyday at work. While I seldom stray into the new car(post 2000) portion, when I do it amazes me all the calibrations & scans that need to be done on most modern vehicles. Pre-scan, in process scan, post scan, calibration front radar, calibration rear proximity sensors, etc etc etc. A bad wheel sensor can throw off the whole ECM and make it throw other codes that aren't even related.

Even my 2019 VW if I don't drive it much it'll throw a random code here & there. I work from home & all my shopping stores are within a mile or two of the house. I've found I need to drive it a few miles about once a week to keep the electronics happy. Just a good excuse to run down the beach to get a Cheesesteak sammich!

 

That’s just a Volkswagen being a Volkswagen trust me I know !!! They all like to throw codes for no apparent reasons 

[Jim N]

The gist of the video as I interpreted it is that the end consumer of an item should have the right to have the item repaired by the technician of his or her choice, or if the consumer is mechanically inclined, he or she can do it him or herself.  If we look at the consumer market, almost any item we are dealing with is a computer that does something else.  A car has become nothing more than a rolling computer, a refrigerator has become a computer that keeps our food cold or frozen, a dishwasher has become a computer that washes our dishes, a washing machine or dryer is now a computer that washes and dries our clothes.  The question is why has this occurred?  There is no question that government interference through regulation has contributed significantly to this, but the cynic in me looks at this as nothing more than a mechanism to chain the consumer to the manufacturer and the manufacturer's repair network to enrich these select few companies.  

[Brutalform]

 And with all these hi tech do dads incorporated into our appliances, you’d think they would last at least as long as they did prior to all this gadgetry? 

[johnyrotten]

4 hours ago, maxwell48098 said:

The diagnostic tool available at the dealership is far more sophisticated and comprehensive than what you get at an auto parts store or the OBD scanners available in the aftermarket.

Good point to bring up. My Ross-tech system for VW/Audi vehicles can easily "brick" a car in the wrong hands. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 12/7/2025 at 11:50 AM, maxwell48098 said:

So this guy is talking about replacing the rear brake pads on a Hyundai Ionic 5 electric vehicle.  I've worked in the automotive service retail and OEM business for 45 years, before retiring back 20 years. The vehicle mentioned is an Ionic 5,all electric vehicle going for somewhere between $50-$60,000.  My question, who/why replaces just the rear brake pads on any vehicles any more after spending that much money on the car to begin with?  What percentage of those buyers are DIY any more?

 

Has anyone considered the cost that the dealership service departments are required to spend on specialized diagnostic and repair tools, software and regular updates, as well as training every year to keep up with technology advances?  

 

A.J.

"Right to Repair" isn't just about individuals working on their own cars.

I'm still in the independent repair end of the car biz, have been for most of over 5 decades now. My background is mechanical engineering. I left the white-collar world to work on the machines I loved, but even as a shop owner/manager, I was always on the front lines, with dirty hands.

To me, the "technology advances" other than sophisticated engine management and improved combustion chamber and porting designs that have enabled impressive fuel economy, emissions, and performance improvements simultaneously, are largely just useless bell-and-whistle add-ons that do nothing but enhance a vehicles marketability (to those who think they need 5-way adjustable heated vibrating color-changing 'smart' cupholders to successfully and safely commute to work or take the kids to soccer practice) while adding layer upon layer of increasingly poorly thought out, failure-prone complication...that's often also poorly supported by the manufacturers from either a parts or service standpoint.

I don't care much about owners who want to do their own minor repairs and maintenance, frankly, though I DO believe the information and parts to do so should be readily available.

What I AM concerned with is a blatant attempt on the part of manufacturers to freeze independent shops out of the repair business by making access to data prohibitively expensive for the smaller ones...the ones that are also very often the most competent, and that are also often vastly more competent than most of the current crop of vehicle "technicians" employed by dealerships...at least in my area.

EDIT: And while we're at it, somebody 'splain to me why a single headlight for a late-model Porsche Cayenne costs $8 THOUSAND and has to communicate with the vehicle's computers.

Yeah, I know...bla bla bla multi-individually-controllable LED bla bla bla safety bla bla bla anti-dazzle bla bla bla bla.

We're NOT driving these things 220 MPH down the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans, ya know.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:41 AM by Ace-Garageguy
accuracy

[Brutalform]

It’s very sad, and I hate to say it, but what are we going to do about it? Pretty much nothing. If there is a store,or business, that I don’t agree with their policies, or whatever, very simply, I will not patronize. And that’s all I can do. I’d never buy a Hyundai, but I’m sure they’ll just go on, like many other automakers, and sell their products, and get away with whatever it is they want to. Big  bucks calls the shots anymore. And that’s just the way it is. You can get hundreds of people to boycott anything from Amazon, to Apple, and it’ll be business as usual. Unfortunately, nothing seems fair anymore. They got each and every one of us. All of this hi tech has everything linked together from vehicles, to insurance, to phone bills, right down to your bank account, to the very penny. 

[Brutalform]

I’ve paid $100 for a headlight bulb for my Maxima, and the car is built so your typical customer MUST take it back to the dealer to have it installed. It wasn’t too bad for me, but still, I had to remove the battery, jack up the car, remove the front wheel, and inner fender, just to change the darn thing. What a joke. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 minutes ago, Brutalform said:

It’s very sad, and I hate to say it, but what are we going to do about it?

Class action lawsuits for megabucks tend to get corporations' attention, as do correctly enforced anti-monopoly laws.

"Anti-monopoly laws, also known as antitrust laws, are regulations designed to promote fair competition and free markets by preventing monopolies, price fixing, and anti-competitive mergers, primarily through U.S. acts like the Sherman Act (outlawing restraints of trade) and Clayton Act (targeting mergers and price discrimination). They stop companies from abusing market power, ensuring innovation, lower prices, and better products for consumers, enforced by the DOJ and FTC."

A letter writing campaign to the appropriate representatives, maybe overseen and actively encouraged by SEMA or a similar automotive aftermarket trade organization might be a start.

But people have become pretty apathetic, and tend to let themselves just be steamrollered en masse.

Nothing will change if WE THE PEOPLE do nothing about it.

Edited yesterday at 12:46 AM by Ace-Garageguy

[maxwell48098]

I'll start by giving a thumbnail of my experience in the automotive service industry, which also included a sabbatical into corporate quality, as well as several years in vehicle serviceabilty.

I spent a 45 year career in the automotive industry from a dealership technician up to to working for a domestic manufacturer.  I've been a member in SAE since 1972 when I was in college working on service related issues there as well. By the time I retired nearly two decades ago, I ran the organization of over 200 people dedicated solely for the development of all diagnostics, service tool development, testing, technician training, and repair information.  I have BSME, BBA, and MBA degrees to go along with my life experiences that included restoring antique cars and fire trucks to now maintaining my own vehicle "fleet", as my wife calls them. 

"Right to repair" has been an issue that I was involved with beginning in the very early '90's with state and federal investigations into the automotive repair practice.  At first, the issue was to allow independent/ aftermarket repair facilities the right to provide warranty repairs on new model vehicles.  Next it was giving the aftermarket access to the proprietary software in engine controllers, but it was so that aftermarket companies could counterfeit them in foreign countries. Then it switched to scan tools, again mainly for the proprietary software in the tool itself and well as using it to go back and produce counterfeit modules and scan tools. Then they wanted in all of the manufacturer specific diagnostic software for non-emission systems and components, then adding in emission and safety systems, just as I was retiring.  Again, it was for access to all of the service information which was produced and distributed to dealers digitally directly from databases in corporate controlled data center servers. In the world of intellectual property theft, the OEMs were still skeptical of the aftermarket, along with their substantial funding sources from outside groups for the amount of lobbying that was going on inside the state and federal bureaucracies. I also won lawsuits against aftermarket repair manual and flat rate time schedules where they took our copyrighted materials and copied it directly, or nearly directly into their publications without purchasing a copyright license here in the US, or sharing a portion of their profits received from stealing and selling it.

Every time, the initial major stumbling blocks were foreign car companies refusing to even consider the demand of the aftermarket unless aftermarket technicians unless they were first trained by them and ASE certified.  Then it got down to the money involved, and most bureaucrats felt that the OEMs were entitled to recover a portion of their annual, and ongoing, expenses to develop and maintain the information, as well as the cost of electronic tools or interfaces.  The feeling was that the amounts each OEM charged should charge at a minimum, the same charge that dealerships had to pay for their information. At the time, not a single US OEM was recovering more than 40% of their costs to develop, produce, and distribute the diagnostic and service information to their dealer body.  And this software was already being pirated, and then sold, in other parts of the world making its way back to North America.  That's when I retired in 2006. 

At the time of my retirement, my annual budget for developing, software coding, validation and testing for our service and diagnostic data was a average $2.9 million annually over 5 years, after dealership subscription revenues were subtracted.  I can only imagine what it is today.  It took at staff of 210 people, plus outside six vendor companies, to complete involved tasks to make it filed ready.  (This cost for digital service and diagnostic support is one of the driving factors in the past 10 years behind dealership consolidations around the country where the sharing of these overhead costs can be spread out over more dealership service facility customers where multiple brands are being serviced in the same service facility.)

The bottom line BACK then, and today is still that It always comes down to the dollars and cents involved, with everyone wanting access, but no one wanting to pay their share of what it costs to develop and update the data, then the maintenance of the databases, servers, and networks to disseminate it.  Paying those costs would most likely result in independent/aftermarket facilities to charge their customers more for the service provided.  Of course, that would take away the financial advantage most independents have over dealership service facilites.   And never forget the liability factor that the service facility takes on when doing service on vehicle emission and safety systems.  Federal standards require the software in the OEM parts to be tamper proof, or programmable (flash reprogramming of engine controllers at the dealership level was one of my industry-first accomplishments during my career) unless the repair is done by a franchised dealership service facility, or certified service facility. ( I testified in several lawsuits where someone other than a dealership service facility did a repair resulting is disastrous results which the plaintiffs then claimed my OEM employer was responsible for. Crazy but true in today's litigious US society )

I'm not sure that I know the answer, but the issue is much larger than most people understand. The one outcome that may occur would be the licensing of ALL repair facilities and technicians, whether employed by a dealership or someone else.  As far as the DIY guy, just like points and condensers, the days of working on your own vehicle may be number as DIYers become even fewer every day. 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

A.J.

[maxwell48098]

20 hours ago, Brutalform said:

I’ve paid $100 for a headlight bulb for my Maxima, and the car is built so your typical customer MUST take it back to the dealer to have it installed. It wasn’t too bad for me, but still, I had to remove the battery, jack up the car, remove the front wheel, and inner fender, just to change the darn thing. What a joke. 

 

Yep, the wife was starting to bake Christmas cookies last Friday when the baking oven quit working.  It took a $185.00 visit from a local appliance technician Saturday, with his $1800 digital tester, to tell us that a resistor in the circuit board had failed. Being the oven, which is a combined micro wave and conventional baking oven, is 12 years old, a replacement circuit board was $1620.00 installed, or roughly 60% of the cost for the new oven we ended up buying instead later in the afternoon.  The tech as an funny old guy (60-65) and he said years ago, he could have just plugged in a replacement resistor for $35 bucks, but incorporating it into the circuit board increased its reliability.  He said he was sure about the "increased reliability" point though.  We both laughed.

 

A.J.

[Mark]

On 12/8/2025 at 2:17 PM, Brutalform said:

 And with all these hi tech do dads incorporated into our appliances, you’d think they would last at least as long as they did prior to all this gadgetry? 

That's just it...they are going to decide how long it lasts.

[Brutalform]

Basically AJ, people bring on their own problems. You make an excellent point. The reason there are so many regulations in general, is, some people trying to get around the law, and basically steal. Just like on our own boards, we have dishonest people, that copy other peoples resin, and 3-D designs as their own. I get it. But maybe there is also something in their plans, not just to protect their ideas, but also to make all the money, and not just a reasonable profit? But I suppose that’s the spot we are in right now. IIRC, there isn’t a part besides tires brakes and wiper blades, that I can’t get, unless I go to a dealer, and the price is usually higher every time. It makes me think, just maybe, they want to recoup the lost profits from all the cars that sat on the lots, and didn’t sell. Maybe like in the old days, that was the right way, when you went to the dealer and checked off the options you wanted for your new car. Instead of mass producing vehicles no one seems to want. And they won’t let those losses happen again. I dunno… just thinking out loud. But thank you, for making me see things from a different perspective.