I wonder if we do the right thing in our praise...

[Terry Sumner]

Now I'm not the best builder in the world and I may be branded a grinch for bringing this up. But this has bothered me a little for a while now. I really wonder if we are doing the right thing by praising someone's model when it clearly is in need of, shall we say, better technique. I mean, in the Under Glass section every now and then you'll see a model that has some bad flaws garner a bunch of comments praising the model when it really needs comments pointing out these bad flaws. Now I'm not talking about something minor, I'm talking about the major, really obvious stuff. For instance, you look at a model where the paint is all orange peel and someone will comment, "nice paint", when it's clearly bad. Or a comment like, "nice clean build", when there is glue on the windshield or the body parts are clearly ill-fitting. What kind of message are we sending the modeler? I think maybe it gives the builder the wrong impression that his paint is good when maybe he might be better served by gently giving suggestions on how to get rid of that orange peel. Same goes for other types of bad technique, of which there are many. Like hoods that don't fit right, decals all silvered, glue all over glass and/or paint, ill fitting bumpers, mold seams left on chrome parts, a tire not on the ground, and more ad nauseum.

Now before you all go nuts on me, please don't think I'm advocating criticising everyone's models. I'm certainly not. I've been around a long time and I do understand that it is not proper netiquette to criticise someone's model when criticism is not asked for and I would never critcise someone's model unless asked to do so. I also realize that not everyone wants to build high quality. And that is fine with me. Everyone should build for themselves for sure. My only problem is with heaping praise on something that CLEARLY shouldn't be praised. And I emphasize the word "clearly". In other words..if the paint is badly orange peeled, then possibly we're doing the modeler a disservice by telling him his paint is good? Better to say nothing than to lie???

Maybe we could have a section like on the ARC forum that is for modelers to post their stuff when they are inviting constructive criticism....

[Eric Stone]

I've had the same feeling at times, Terry, and in that case I usually don't say anything. The kneejerk reaction to the criticism is to say "I build for me and I like it", which may be true, but I know I build for me, and I want to better my builds. You never know how others will react. I guess I'm more likely to offer tips once a discussion about the flaws has begun, but I'd hate to be the one to initially bring it up and upset someone. Also, you don't always know who you're talking to, or what their experience level is. We don't all build amazing models, and one guy's glue-bombed nightmare could be a kid's masterpiece that is deserving of praise and encouragement. I don't believe in the whole "everybody who plays is a winner and gets a trophy" mentality, but the criticism should be appropriate for the builder.

[Pete J.]

Now I'm not the best builder in the world and I may be branded a grinch for bringing this up. But this has bothered me a little for a while now. I really wonder if we are doing the right thing by praising someone's model when it clearly is in need of, shall we say, better technique. I mean, in the Under Glass section every now and then you'll see a model that has some bad flaws garner a bunch of comments praising the model when it really needs comments pointing out these bad flaws. Now I'm not talking about something minor, I'm talking about the major, really obvious stuff. For instance, you look at a model where the paint is all orange peel and someone will comment, "nice paint", when it's clearly bad. Or a comment like, "nice clean build", when there is glue on the windshield or the body parts are clearly ill-fitting. What kind of message are we sending the modeler? I think maybe it gives the builder the wrong impression that his paint is good when maybe he might be better served by gently giving suggestions on how to get rid of that orange peel. Same goes for other types of bad technique, of which there are many. Like hoods that don't fit right, decals all silvered, glue all over glass and/or paint, ill fitting bumpers, mold seams left on chrome parts, a tire not on the ground, and more ad nauseum.

Now before you all go nuts on me, please don't think I'm advocating criticising everyone's models. I'm certainly not. I've been around a long time and I do understand that it is not proper netiquette to criticize someone's model when criticism is not asked for and I would never criticize someone's model unless asked to do so. I also realize that not everyone wants to build high quality. And that is fine with me. Everyone should build for themselves for sure. My only problem is with heaping praise on something that CLEARLY shouldn't be praised. And I emphasize the word "clearly". In other words..if the paint is badly orange peeled, then possibly we're doing the modeler a disservice by telling him his paint is good? Better to say nothing than to lie???

Maybe we could have a section like on the ARC forum that is for modelers to post their stuff when they are inviting constructive criticism....

.

I have to agree. Complementing poor work only encourages poor work, but blunt unwelcome criticism doesn't help either. Both sides need to arrive at the table with a proper attitude.

We should have a separate section with an appropriate title such as "shooting gallery". The rules should go something like this. Gentlemen on both sides of the table. Put your model up and be prepared to have it looked at critically.

Commenters: Keep it civil. Comment but keep it to the model and keep it constructive. Bad Paint - Not a constructive comment. Constructive comment - Orange peel, need sanding and polishing. Here is how you do it.

Etc.

Maybe Harry is listening and would give it some consideration. What do you think?

[Mike Kucaba]

I used to offer advice... sometimes A LOT of advice,maybe too much. I've stopped mostly because I'm tired of typing about the same old flaws. Basically I'm using the old "if I can't say something nice I won't say anything.

Mike

[Jeff Sauber]

Good post Terry, and I share those same sentiments.

Unfortunately, with the way things tend to go around here, I generally prefer to just not comment on those sorts of topics since 99.5% of the time it will end in disaster.

I may bring up a question or make a suggestion during a work in progress that I've been following along to, but if things turn out poorly, and the finished model still needs some advice or help, I usually just keep it to myself and don't say anything.

This has become a hair trigger forum at times, and no matter how delicate constructive criticism is delivered, somebody will almost surely become offended and have a severe meltdown.

Another thing I've noticed is that at times when advice has been given forth to help a modeler improve, the advice tends to be ignored and the builder usually just stay within their comfort zones and keep repeating the same mistakes.

You can lead the horses to the watering holes, but you can't force them to drink, and with the way everyone tip toes around here on egg shells lately, it's best to just keep quiet, and avoid the fireworks.

[Danno]

Excellent, courageous post, Terry! You very delicately and maturely presented some very controversial but honest thoughts. Good for you! And, you are dead-on.

It does no real good to tell someone what a great build they've achieved if it looks like it was spray-glued together and painted with a texture-roller using colored stucco. Or if the stripes, trim, or details appear to be painted with a 4" fence brush. It just reinforces poor skills, misguided techniques, bad habits, and lazy building.

When a builder posts a really sloppy build and a half-dozen or so breathless cheerleaders and mutual-sycophants pile cheesey praise on it, the builder is never going to be motivated to improve. All too often, that same builder, however, generally reacts with hugely supercilious indignity and open outrage when frank, honest, constructive criticism is offered.

That seems to be the incubator of a lot of the flame wars that are spontaneously ignited around here.

As a consequence, I too, most frequently bite my tongue and bleed all over the keyboard as embarrassingly poor efforts are sometimes praised to high heaven. And the false praise generally serves no useful purpose, anyway, because it's those builders who have no compunction about proudly posting debris and touting it as their 'best ever' while calling themselves a 'pro builder.'

I guess most people just can't handle the truth any more. Returning to stealth mode.

[Greg Cullinan]

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head. Not everyone here is a pro!

I've had the same feeling at times, Terry, and in that case I usually don't say anything. The kneejerk reaction to the criticism is to say "I build for me and I like it", which may be true, but I know I build for me, and I want to better my builds. You never know how others will react. I guess I'm more likely to offer tips once a discussion about the flaws has begun, but I'd hate to be the one to initially bring it up and upset someone. Also, you don't always know who you're talking to, or what their experience level is. We don't all build amazing models, and one guy's glue-bombed nightmare could be a kid's masterpiece that is deserving of praise and encouragement. I don't believe in the whole "everybody who plays is a winner and gets a trophy" mentality, but the criticism should be appropriate for the builder.

[Greg Cullinan]

There's a whole topic for tips and I believe it is the place for them not in someones specific build thread,it comes off as demeaning there from what I've seen.

Plus I think anyone that is pretty good at building got there from experience not from being berated on a public forum.

[Terror]

Must be why people don't say much in my stuff.LOL and I thought it was my user name?J/K you guys with real comments such as the ones mentioned can check out my stuff.I'm a big boy,I won't swoop on ya.I welcome any comment good or bad but,most of all,please be honest.Sometimes things are hard to see with old eyes.The camera doesn't lie.Now some flaws are left on mine to remind me not to do that again.If I was striveing for perfection all the time,I would never finish them.My intention is to get a perfect one some day but who knows when that will happen.Now one a nother note are these supposed perfect builds really what they appear to be or we just seeing the good side??

[MikeMc]

All my work has flaws.....Good photo skills can hide most of them.....

[crazyjim]

I'm far from being a great builder, but I really enjoy reading positive comments after I do an "under glass" post. My builds are up in quality like many of you guys, but I try my best and I try to keep learning from better builders.

[Terror]

I have at least 20 or more,with different flubs,if ya will.Sometimes I think,man why do I still build these things.But,The ones I hate the most are one side looks great the other side has a visible flaw in it.Finger print,lint in the paint,A section of paint darker than the rest,and like the hood may be darker than the rest.Yes,glue on window,decal not even.man I could go on all day.The infamouse one wheel in the air thing.oh another one,dimples in the clear.

[george 53]

Yeah, that's a good question. But you know the old saying, "If you can't say something......" Well, i DON'T see any sense in publicly negatively criticing ANYONES work, Lord knows I wasn't perfect when I started! Not all that great now! But if someone DOES do a nice job, like those models shown by our new member Cesar, Oh heck yeah, I'll give him credit, cause it's DUE! Those are NICE builds. I like them and I'm more than happy to let him know! He's earned it!

[envious8420]

I really like the "Shooting Gallery" idea.

I'd be more than willing to post my work in a format such as that.

[Sixties Sam]

I like to compliment the good and ignore the bad features of anyone's model. For example, If I see a nicely painted and detailed custom with a set of those ridiculous giant wheels on it, I don't say "those wheels ruin the model". I would say something like "great paint and detail work". Compliments encourage the builders to build more and better models. It's pretty simple.

Sam

[Harry P.]

My opinion is that if you post your work here, any comments, positive and negative, are part of the deal. It's up to each individual as to what they want to say (or not say)... but once you show the world what you did, the world has the right to comment. If you can't take criticism, don't post pictures of your work.

As far as "critical" comments... there's a right way and a wrong way to criticize. Be smart about it.

[Guest Johnny]

Hey Terry! I think a lot depends on the builders profile. Age, anount of time they6 have been building etc. But yes it can be harmful to overate a build. Too much praise will inhibit and too much criticism will discourage.

Taking experience into cocideration it needs to be a mix of praise for the effort but must also point out ares that improvement are needed, gently.

I think most will accept gentle criticism and use it to improve. There are those though that will be discouraged no matter how gentle you are in pointing out weak ares of their building skils! That cannot be helped.

Myself I say bring it on! I know I am not a great builder. I know that my work right now is below what it was before I quit building and I probably will never get that back now.

But I build for fun, yes I would love every paint job and custom build to come out flawless but I know that isn't going to happen! But I will take criticism and suggestions and having done so improved on builds!

I stand in awe of a lot of you guys building skills! But even my mediocre builds next to yours I can still live with!

[Dr. Cranky]

Here's my formula for building happy shiny models (or otherwise) into a ripe old age:

building + photographing + sharing (not exactly in that order always) = LOADS OF FUN!

Edited July 23, 2010 by DamnCranky

[Jon Cole]

I will usually pass over the post if the model has “issues†so to speak. One thing that builders should give some thought to, when you post your newest build, be honest with yourself! If there are flaws, ignoring them won’t keep us from noticing them. If the builder is realistic, and says something like “yeah, I messed up the paint on the doorâ€, then there is no need for others to point it out. I would rather catch my own flaws, rather than leave it for others.

On the other hand, if I did a crappy paint job, and say nothing, then it is fair game for polite criticism.

[David G.]

There's a whole topic for tips and I believe it is the place for them not in someones specific build thread,it comes off as demeaning there from what I've seen.

Plus I think anyone that is pretty good at building got there from experience not from being berated on a public forum.

I think you've hit on the core of this issue. Just as in any other cross section of society, there are a variety of personality types here. Some people will receive an honest critique or evaluation of their work as it is intended. Others respond on the opposite end of the scale and perceive anything they don't want to hear as a personal attack. Until you know what someone else's reaction will be, it's often best to say nothing.

I invite and hope for honest comments on my builds. To me it means that someone took the time to really look at what I've done and formulate an honest, thoughtful opinion. That shows me that, on some level, something I've done matters to someone else.

Granted, some folks do come here just to boost their own egos by berating others and stomping them down, but there aren't many of those and they're easily spotted.

There's a big difference between,

"You've got some orangepeel going on there. If you want to smooth that out, you could wet sand with some 1200 grit paper and respray before you polish it out."

and,

"dood ur pant suxorz!"

There again, there are those who would see either of the above statements as a demeaning personal attack and reply in kind.

Thankfully, most folks fall somewhere in between. Still, we should always strive to be courteous, polite and respectful in all our interactions on this and any other discussion boards.

On a side note, it seems to me that some time ago, a couple of builders posted images of some really horribly built models with the intention of baiting just this type of empty praise response. As I recall, it worked.

[Dragline]

I try to offer "constructive" critisism in a positive manner always. I can only remember one time I did not use tact in a post about a model. I was wrong for doing so and apologized [via PM]. But my comments were there for all to see and it was embarrassing for me personally. This is not like me at all.

If the conversation has been established and a flaw that has not been mentioned that is bugging me I may indeed try to help the poster. I have even gone so far as a mini tutorial as a way of helping.

But mostly, I don't post anything at all and hope the modeler in question looks at other builds on this site on their own, and sees what can be accomplished with patience, tools, and a yearning to up their own personal ante.

I try not to praise mediocrity, it does send the wrong message.

Bob

[Eshaver]

Considering the way things have gone lately, I would strongly sugest a P- M as opposed to publicly expressing ones feelings . Certain people here like to take advantage of a situation and blow it out of proportion . Ed Shaver

[philo426]

I wonder why forum members would praise a model that has noticable flaws?Personally,I would carefully ponder a critique and check to see if it was valid.The truth is the truth no sense in getting upset if the flaws are manifestively there.Use the critiques to improve your techniques,no sense in getting upset as long as the critique is polite and factual!

[Len Geisler]

Terry.....well put, and understood...

I too am not the worlds greatest builder, but have worked to where I am by asking for and accepting critiques. I normally add to the bottom of my build / builts a line like....

Questions, comments and critiques always welcome..

Mostimes guys are helpful to me when I do that...

But if I dont see someone be open to it, I shut my trap to...

[LoneWolf15]

Terry ,

Get out of my thoughts and stay out ! This has been discussed on other forums , alot of the comments here are dead on . Encourging or praising poor workmanship does not work in the long run . I generally keep my mouth shut , it's not worth the hassles that come with it . I just scream out loud at times and scare the daylights out of the cats after viewing the models and the posted comments that go with it ! It seems to help me , the cats ,on the otherhand , not too sure about that.

I will leave the vending table to look at someones work when asked to do so at the shows . I tell them what I like about the model and what I don't . I then advise them as to how to improve on the areas that I find lacking . Hey ! , they specifically sought me out for my opinion , they got it !

This has generally worked out well . I believe it's alot easier for an individual to get a mad on over their computer over someones comments rather then having them standing in front of you !

As stated beforehand , If you put it out there on the show table or up on the forum for public opinion , you gotta man up and be ready for the heat ! If not , stay out of the kitchen . Undue praise doth not make a good modeler , it simply creates a false sense of security.

I welcome criticism , it makes me a better modeler . The only time I take offense is when it becomes personal , in otherwards , about me , rather than what I put on the table. This generally occurs and comes from individuals that are armchiar quarterback modelers who could'nt glue an engine block together without screwing it up ! They talk the game , they just can't play it ! Ask them to post their work , they back off real quick !

Tip toeing around this does'nt help anybody , not the modeler with glue on his windshield , the people viewing it on the forums or at the shows , and for that matter , my cats ! I think constructive criticism should have it's place here . It's how we all learn to be better modelers.

Donn Yost

Lone Wolf Custom Painting