I don't think it's right

[ra7c7er]

This happened here locally at a small show! Top award went to a new Shelby Mustang. Had a little over 100 miles on the clock.

The guy took top honors and when he got ready to leave he pulled the FORD plates off and there were dealer plates underneath!

The argument of who built...........comes upall the time!

Some people have the talent and the place and the tools to build their own car. Others don't but have the money to have what they want built or to just buy a finished car that fits what their dream car may be!

When the car is judged it should have no bearing on what car wins as it is the car that is judged.

I have found that the majority will tell you they didn't build the car and will give credit to whom ever did!

Yes, there will always be those few that will try and take credit but as I have found someone always knows andthey will be outed!

Must have been a pretty dull car show for that to win. I see stuff like that happen all the time though.

[Modelmartin]

Traditionally at car shows it's the car that is judged and at model shows it is the building of the model that is being judged. It may seem like the same thing but it actually isn't. It is a slightly different thing that is being rewarded. To judge the building of the model it has to be done by one individual. The finished result is being inspected and judged the same way but a different thing is being rewarded. At the car show it is the finished result only that is being rewarded and in the model contest it is the work that produced the finished result. It is mostly about what has been done traditionally.

Having said that, I would love to see a contest or maybe just a category within a contest that allows multiple builders to work on one model. I think it would be fascinating.

Several years ago at Pebble Beach, Jay Leno caused a mild stir while accepting his car's award when he thanked his restorer by name!

Ed Roth's stuff was cool but several staff members did a lot of conceptualizing and huge amounts of construction for him. He had a similar role to a movie producer.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Modelmartin

[Modelmartin]

Rolling Pile of Dog Poop Monthly.

[Jantrix]

The idea that the thread originator has, just isn't realistic. I subscribe to Street Rodder and Rod & Custom and I can't tell how many times I've seen a car story that goes, "Bob came up with this great idea for his 32 and he turned to John at John's Customs in Johnsonville, Indianna, to make it happen." Not everyone has the time, the skills, the equipment or the know-how to do it themselves. But with enough money, you can rent all four.

Now people entering models they didn't build in contests................that rrreeeaaaaallllllllyyyyyyy cheeses me off. I suppose it's a huge double standard, but oh well.

[Terror]

Well I thinks it great the rich can enjoy themselves..If you guys at his shop worked harder maybe he could enter 2 cars next year. I don't care for the wealthy.I'm a Robin Hood fan.

[Eshaver]

I bet most of you have no idea how long such practices gave gone on . Being in the "Business" such as I was for wayyyyy too many years . I would wander about on Saturday night just glancing at the cars in the parking lots , listening to parts of conversations . I was all the timehearing , "How THEY Sweated and worked on some car ". Yeah right , they PAID ME to do the work ! What do ya do........... Me , I sigh, take a swig outta my coffee cup and mosey on. Ed Shaver

[sjordan2]

Traditionally at car shows it's the car that is judged and at model shows it is the building of the model that is being judged. It may seem like the same thing but it actually isn't. It is a slightly different thing that is being rewarded. To judge the building of the model it has to be done by one individual. The finished result is being inspected and judged the same way but a different thing is being rewarded. At the car show it is the finished result only that is being rewarded and in the model contest it is the work that produced the finished result. It is mostly about what has been done traditionally.

Having said that, I would love to see a contest or maybe just a category within a contest that allows multiple builders to work on one model. I think it would be fascinating.

Several years ago at Pebble Beach, Jay Leno caused a mild stir while accepting his car's award when he thanked his restorer by name!

Ed Roth's stuff was cool but several staff members did a lot of conceptualizing and huge amounts of construction for him. He had a similar role to a movie producer.

Them's my sentiments exactly.

There are lots of different types of car shows. At most car shows, I think recognition should go to the car and the builder or restorer, regardless of ownership. Rod & custom shows display creativity and unique artistic skill, so a guy like Chip Foose should be recognized even if he built it for someone else. At Pebble Beach, you're not likely to find many owners who did much personal work on those cars, so (as in the Leno example), the skill of the restorer should be recognized. But owners of these types of cars often act as producers, farming out work to a wide variety of sources to achieve their particular vision.

But I don't think model car shows/contests are anything like that. They're really arts & crafts shows, displaying the talents of the entrants. Who would enter a Gerald Wingrove or Juha Airio model under their own name? If model show rules don't stipulate that the model must be the work of the entrant, they should. Isn't that partly taken care of by the different categories such as box stock and others with heavy use of aftermarket parts?

Edited January 14, 2011 by sjordan2

[Harry P.]

But I don't think model car shows/contests are anything like that. They're really arts & crafts shows, displaying the talents of the entrants.

I think the main difference is that in the 1:1 world it's much harder to be a builder than in the model world. You'd have to be a skillled metal worker, welder, electrician, mechanic, upholsterer, etc., and not many people can do all those things well enough to build a prize-winning car all by themselves. So in the 1:1 world the emphasis is more on the finished product, because the car is usually a collaborative effort. Iin the model world the emphasis is more on the individual's talent and craftsmanship... because generally one single person can build a model car. And in fact, the unwritten (and sometimes written) rule in model contests is that the model entered must be entirely the entrant's work.

Like Andy said, if there was a category for "group builds" or something where the model itself was judged, regardless of who or how many people were involved, that would be more of a scale version of a 1:1 car show.

[Jordan White]

I think the main difference is that in the 1:1 world it's much harder to be a builder than in the model world. You'd have to be a skillled metal worker, welder, electrician, mechanic, upholsterer, etc., and not many people can do all those things well enough to build a prize-winning car all by themselves. So in the 1:1 world the emphasis is more on the finished product, because the car is usually a collaborative effort. Iin the model world the emphasis is more on the individual's talent and craftsmanship... because generally one single person can build a model car. And in fact, the unwritten (and sometimes written) rule in model contests is that the model entered must be entirely the entrant's work.

Which is more or less what I said in post #14.

[Kaleb]

I agree with the original post, yet there are some other opinions I agree with.

First like his boss taking a car he neither built by hand nor by checkbook. It would be like me going and buying Chip Foose's Personal car and entering it and taking the trophies for the win. Personally its cheating.

If the person is giving the proper credit is one thing and building by checkbook is another. My Car personally will be partially worked on by me and other things I will pay for. Yet I can not give credit to some of the other guys because in a car show it will not be judged on what they done. Unless I was to take it to a drag race.

But how many of the Import guys do the same thing, and even the newer muscle cars that take a factory stock car and enter it?????

You also have these guys that may have a nice car but everything is "Custom" on it that they never touched except to take it off the shelf of an auto part store and put it on the car?

[Eshaver]

I agree with the original post, yet there are some other opinions I agree with.

First like his boss taking a car he neither built by hand nor by checkbook. It would be like me going and buying Chip Foose's Personal car and entering it and taking the trophies for the win. Personally its cheating.

If the person is giving the proper credit is one thing and building by checkbook is another. My Car personally will be partially worked on by me and other things I will pay for. Yet I can not give credit to some of the other guys because in a car show it will not be judged on what they done. Unless I was to take it to a drag race.

But how many of the Import guys do the same thing, and even the newer muscle cars that take a factory stock car and enter it?????

You also have these guys that may have a nice car but everything is "Custom" on it that they never touched except to take it off the shelf of an auto part store and put it on the car?

Joshua, you make a very interesting point on "Off the shelf parts ". I left the so called "Cutom Van " accessory business rather than build for the Dealer Van companies . Hey, I wasn't about to invest in a vacum forming machine that made interior walls for Chevrolet and Dodge Hi- Top vans ! Nope , not me , NEVA !!!!!!! Ed Shaver

[Danno]

THEN , maybe the 1:1 judging can be implemented at model car shows, and remove the Bias & slight stigma associated w/ Judged shows...

Then model car shows would no longer be vision/talent/skill/technique competitions, they would be 'how much can you afford to spend to buy this trophy' events.

Anybody seriously interested in that should just go to a trophy store and buy a few to take home and display ... they can make up whatever awards and titles they want. The trophies would be meaningless to anyone else.

[Mark Brown]

If you look back over the long list of AMBR winners through the years - and I don't have real numbers - I'll bet if you took the Award away from all the winners who didn't actually build the cars, you'd be left with a very short list. Most car builders aren't rich enough to bankroll the kinds of cars they build on consignment - the very cars that go on to win the AMBR Award and others. Guys like Coddington and Buttera and Foose were able to build the often legendary cars they did because someone was paying them to build them.

[sjordan2]

Almost all 1:1 car shows are about the quality of the car. Even a beautifully maintained factory car, a survivor in its original condition, is worthy of admiration and awards (and big bucks at Barrett-Jackson, regardless of what you think about them). It doesn't have to be an example of the restorer's art.

Models, which come in pieces, have to be built by someone with certain skill levels and there are totally different judging criteria and categories, which center around the quality of the build. I see no similarity between 1:1 car shows and model contests, except that the desirability of the car may play a factor. But a great post-apocalyptic or junkyard build could win a model contest. You'll never see that in a 1:1 car show.

Edited January 14, 2011 by sjordan2

[Kaleb]

Maybe they should add a Checkbook award for the most paid for car that was built by someone else.

Or better A Custom trophy for the top Custom-Autozone car.(Note: the Custom trophy will look like all the other trophies)

Ive been in a few car shows with my own...Mostly under construction(being that I am personally doing it, and out of my own pocketbook) I can only name one show that did not have the same judges and that was in Louisiana. Here in Arkansas the shows were judged by the same company everytime I turned around. This company does alot of actual Custom stuff fabricated with Fiberglass and sheetmetal. Problem is, they have their favorites. But thats beside the point referback to the top of my post to get back on subject.

[Guest Johnny]

Kaleb! Just because a guy has a fat checkbook and buys the car he is showing ohas it built it isn't cheating!

Yes you can buy a Foose car and show it! Even if they lie claim the build it still isn'tcheating because the car is being judged, not the owner/builder!

I have yet to see an entry form that said "must be owner built" even as big as World Of Wheels!

[Mark Brown]

And keep in mind that, especially in the internet age, these cars aren't built in a vacuum. Unlike a contest-winning model, where there's a good chance nobody will see it till its debut, most potential show winners are well known long before they make their show debut. Only a complete moron would try to tell people he had built something he hadn't - he'd get called on his BS before he finished spouting it. Too many people would know better and not be afraid to speak up.

[Kaleb]

Might I recall, Personally its cheating Personal opinion, when it fully matters ill go to every car show . Even if it is judged on the "car" There needs to be more consideration of those that truely build their own. I understand today's cars are mainly Part's changers and not actually building a car and that you need some "pro" doing some of the stuff.

[Guest Johnny]

Ok Kaleb, I have a friend that I went all the way through school with! He was far from mechanically inclined but one hell of an artist! He love drawing cars and was very much Foose like when he would look at the car and then scetch it out they way he thought it should look!

He went on to work for Ford in their design department and just recently retired after 35 years!

He had a car built for him. He furnished all the ideas for the interior and exterior and refused to deviate when the builder or upholsterer offered up their own ideas. He did with my help disassemble the chassis and he cleaned it of all rust then it was sent out to have the rear clip done and suspension done at an alignment shop!

Like I said this guy hardly knew one end of a wrench from the other and I would call him all thumbs in his mechanical talent!

He has won many shows with his car and even awards at WOW!

Are you saying because he does not have the same talent as somone that could build their own that he is "in your opinion" cheating because he hired the most done?

After all, except for the minor work he did he essencially bought the work finished!

[Guest Johnny]

I will say just as a side note to to this! I have been at a show where a car that was built by Troy Trepanier for a customer was entered and it didn't even place!

My experience has been that in the majority of shows I have attended the majority of winners were home built cars!

The truth is though very few are built 100% by the owner. There always is some part of the build that will have to be farmed out either because they do not have the expertise in that particular thing or do not have the tools or place to do it in!

Paint comes to mind as the most common thing that gets farmed out along with sheet metal replacement!

[Mark Brown]

Paint comes to mind as the most common thing that gets farmed out along with sheet metal replacement!

And interior work - very few hobbyists have the expertise or tools to do their own upholstery. Personally, I'd attempt my own paint before I'd try upholstery work.

[Aaronw]

One thing that I don't see mentioned here is that 1:1 cars almost always are delivered as finished products (excepting of course semi-finished kit cars, etc.) to begin with. How much work is done to the car to prepare it for a show varies wildly.

That is what I was getting at earlier, almost no one "builds" the car, at best a 1-1 kit car might be compared to a snap kit or unassembled pre-painted diecast.

In the early 1990s my dad did a lot of handy man work for an older lady. Because of all the work, and very reasonable cost (he liked the work and didn't charge nearly as much as he should) when she decided she shouldn't be driving anymore she sold him her 1967 Chevelle for $500. This was literally the little old lady who only drove to church on sundays, 40,000 miles in 20+ years, nearly show room condition inside, and very good outside (parked in a carport since new, so a little weathering).

He wasn't into the car show thing, but it makes me wonder if some think a very good original car should be judged differently than a complete frame off restoration?

I can understand the OPs disdain for someone who doesn't even wash his own car, but for something like a car it seems to me the award is for the final project whether it comes from long term careful care, a lucky find, ones own sweat or a fat wallet and careful selection of workmen. Cars have become investments for the rich, and unfortunately this means some are not car people at all, simply investors.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Aaronw

[Mark Brown]

He wasn't into the car show thing, but it makes me wonder if some think a very good original car should be judged differently than a complete frame off restoration?

Many shows have a "survivor" class to address that very situation.

[38 Crush]

It all comes down to one thing and that's MONEY In most cases you can buy a finished car alot cheaper than you can build it! Especially when you concider setting up a shop, all YOUR man hours(10-20 dollars per hr) put into the car not to mention what the pros charge for paint and upholstery.

38 Crush

[38 Crush]

Thats way too cheap, I charge $45 per hour compared to what the going rate is around here at $85-$110 per hour.

Hey I live in Oregon, What can I say!! California prices have always been higher. LOL! In any case my point is still made. If your not rich, buy a car or build a model

38 Crush