It's about time

[thatz4u]

I like the front of the car

[Chuck Most]

You know, I was one of many who liked the '99 Charger concept, but seeing it again... I have to really rack my brain to remember what it was I liked about it. Yeah, it's better looking than the production Charger, but so are about 75% of the other vehicles on sale today. Even that blocky Challenger! BTW- Dodge almost slapped that Challenger name on a four-door, Ram-based SUV that ended up being stillborn. Imagine the doo-doo storm that would have rained down had that happened.

[Monty]

No my finger-quotes indicate a forest for the trees problem. I can understand why anyone (let alone people specifically enthusiastic about Mustangs) would have gathered outside Ford HQ with torches and pitchforks had they actually passed off the Probe as a Mustang. I can understand some sense of resentment towards Ford for even contemplating it. But man seriously, they came to their senses 23 years ago and never did what you're so angry about. You didn't buy a Probe, and the Probe in no way effected your life, and clearly not the life of the Mustang. I can see being angry with Chrysler for the 80's Charger, or Oldsmobile for the '80's 442 as those actually occurred and "sullied" the name of their originals. I gather your own personal experience is what is driving this since you mention "I and others wrote to Ford", you clearly believe you have a personal stake in the Mustang's survival. In which case I would like to apologize as "I and others wrote AMT demanding a police car" at about the same time and what we got was that abortion of a Taurus SHO "police" car. I truly believe the collective effort of thousands of motivated people helped keep the Mustang from becoming something else. I just happened to be one of them. Ford ended up making the Mustang and the Probe, so we felt we had kept the real Mustang lineage alive, and apparently you got a car that you liked, too. Sorry 'bout your experience with AMT. Perhaps more pitchforks and torches were in order.

Even "anger" is a bit much. It's an inanimate object. One that evokes great passion and perhaps nostalgia, but a lump of steel non-the-less. If you don't want to buy a new car, no one (except perhaps the Feds if they had their way) is pointing a gun to your head and frog-marching you to a Toyota dealership. Here's a point we can probably agree on: federal regulations probably have a huge impact on what car makers decide to produce. Ever-increasing mileage standards typically mean even smaller cars, and for someone my height (6'3") it can also mean even fewer choices.

This "2 door, RWD, & V-8" or die mentality that rears it's ugly head on this forum about every 60 days or so when someone re-creates a "The Charger has too many doors" thread is fascinating. Looks like the raw nerve has finally been exposed. Did your "zippy" car get beat by a dump truck? It's a like watching a retirement home that's a cross between "On Golden Pond" and "American Graffiti". Since we're playing "generalizations" here, can I assume you still rock at World of Warcraft because of the advanced treatments available for ADHD? The amount of "back in the day", "when I was young", "the glory days", "everything new is bad and ugly" is touching, but also irrational. Been car shopping for something that doesn't fall under the heading of "practical" lately? Pretty slim pickings out there. And as far as aesthetics go, yes, I'd vastly prefer a '68 GTO, '69 Mach 1 or '70 Charger to almost any US or Japanese-made car available today. Since it seems 95% of it is based in the fact that any car today simply doesn't "look cool like the '50's/'60's". No one has driven any of the cars they hate, they just hate them because they're foreign, or "too expensive", or not a V-8 (never mind most V-6s today have more power than the V-8s of yore Not true at all. When I travel, I end up renting almost everywhere I go. (Business and pleasure) I've been upgraded to much better cars than I'd arranged for and I've had agencies overbook, relegating me to lesser cars. If you're satisfied with a combination of good and mundane, the world's your oyster. - the KIA my wife wants to buy next has more HP and Torque than the LT-1 Caprice/Impala SS which was the pinnacle of cool and performance for us police car "enthusiasts") or 4 door, or power the "wrong wheels" or all of the above. Now take a look at what the LS V8s are doing as far as power and mileage. Phenomenal. Having a fun plaything car is great, I've owned several, but when it comes to transporting my wife and two daughters around I'll "settle" for the big, bloated, bells & whistles, safety filled vehicle with the warranty every time. We've got one of those, too. It's safe, spacious, gets decent mileage and bores me senseless. So, are we done beating this dead horse now?

[Monty]

As someone who once owned a wide variety of cars, including Muscle Cars------I'll take "zippy" and "great handling" over all out straight line performance these days.

The Corvette I owned for 20 years gave me great handling and straight line performance. The downside was having to toe the line on the speed limit while every metallic beige Camry ever made could do 15 over with impunity.

[sak]

Why do we even need "muscle cars" for these days anyway? I have read somewhere that the average engine only uses 15 percent of its capacity. So do you need 400 horsepower to take your children to soccer practice? If you do, I hate see the size of your children. Everytime somebody buys a camaro or challenger , some shiek in the middle east is licking his chops. I do agree though that this new challenger coupe looks badass.

[Chuck Most]

Why do we even need "muscle cars" for these days anyway? I have read somewhere that the average engine only uses 15 percent of its capacity. So do you need 400 horsepower to take your children to soccer practice? If you do, I hate see the size of your children. Everytime somebody buys a camaro or challenger , some shiek in the middle east is licking his chops. I do agree though that this new challenger coupe looks badass.

You could say the same thing about Fat-Albert sized SUVs, crew cab pickups with two-foot-long beds, and crew cab duallies used as daily transportation instead of towing and hauling. Some people just 'want' a muscle car, and 'want' usually overrides need as far as vehicles are concerned. The average person would probably be just content with an Aveo or a Caliber as daily transport, but lots of people just plain don't WANT the Aveo or Caliber- they want the Camaro or Challenger.

[fumi]

You could say the same thing about Fat-Albert sized SUVs, crew cab pickups with two-foot-long beds, and crew cab duallies used as daily transportation instead of towing and hauling. Some people just 'want' a muscle car, and 'want' usually overrides need as far as vehicles are concerned. The average person would probably be just content with an Aveo or a Caliber as daily transport, but lots of people just plain don't WANT the Aveo or Caliber- they want the Camaro or Challenger.

What baffles me is that these same people who said they "wanted a muscle car" passed over them and bought a family sedan or SUV instead. Then they turn around and complain about the manufacturers not making the muscle cars they want.

As for the two door Charger: how many people would buy a full size coupe? If you need a full size car to haul the whole family all the time, wouldn't it make far more sense to have 4 doors? If you don't need to carry 4-5 people in your car most of the time, why buy a full size car in first place?

[Danno]

Ahhhh, yes. The age-old debate.

[Harry P.]

Why do we even need "muscle cars" for these days anyway? I have read somewhere that the average engine only uses 15 percent of its capacity. So do you need 400 horsepower to take your children to soccer practice?

A small, fuel-efficient, "sensible" little commuter car would probably take car of the daily transportation needs of 90% of us, but it's about choice. Americans like to have a wide variety of choices when they go car shopping.

Let's face it, nobody needs a gigantosaurus 4wd SUV to drive themselves to work every day. But that's what some people want. Does it make sense, logically? No, of course not. But as long as gigantosaurus SUVs are legal to own and operate, and the owner can afford the gas, hey, that's their choice and their business.

Same with full-size coupes. Are they for everyone? No, but there are those who prefer them. Does a full-size coupe make sense to the type of person that drives a Prius? Probably not... but then again, the full-size coupe guy probably doesn't see the point of the Prius. Different strokes for different folks.

[Rob Hall]

A small, fuel-efficient, "sensible" little commuter car would probably take car of the daily transportation needs of 90% of us, but it's about choice. Americans like to have a wide variety of choices when they go car shopping.

Let's face it, nobody needs a gigantosaurus 4wd SUV to drive themselves to work every day. But that's what some people want. Does it make sense, logically? No, of course not. But as long as gigantosaurus SUVs are legal to own and operate, and the owner can afford the gas, hey, that's their choice and their business.

Same with full-size coupes. Are they for everyone? No, but there are those who prefer them. Does a full-size coupe make sense to the type of person that drives a Prius? Probably not... but then again, the full-size coupe guy probably doesn't see the point of the Prius. Different strokes for different folks.

Bingo...I don't care for small cars, and especially dislike 4cyls and FWD. I've been very happy w/ my Jeep Grand Cherokee...it's not very big as far as SUVs go, but very capable off road (I've done a bunch of that) and excellent on-road.

I try and stick w/ the domestics (though I've had a BMW and a Mercedes in the past). I like the Charger R/T and 300C quite a bit..

When I was shopping for my new daily driver, I wanted quiet, smooth, comfortable and loaded. Almost got a 300C but went for a Cadillac instead. Very happy w/ my choice. My friends and colleagues drive Priuses and other FWD appliances, they are happy w/ them..but I like a hefty, solid American car. Choice is good. Kept my Jeep for winter use (will need when I leave AZ).

In a few years, I do want another fun weekend car (still have my '87 Mustang GT), I may go for the new Mustang Boss 302..though the Camaro and Challenger are pretty appealing also.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Rob Hall

[Kit Basher]

The beauty of it is that we CAN choose! There is such a variety of vehicles available that most everybody can find something they like. Hummer or Smart Car, and everything in between. I hope that continues.

[Aaronw]

Been car shopping for something that doesn't fall under the heading of "practical" lately? Pretty slim pickings out there.

Three years into a global economic recession will do that. Luxury and performance cars are something of a niche in good times, in bad times only the very top of the line seem to find buyers in quantity to make them attractive to car makers. When the economy turns around and gas gets cheaper again I'm pretty sure the less practical fun cars will also make a return.

[Harry P.]

When the economy turns around and gas gets cheaper again I'm pretty sure the less practical fun cars will also make a return.

What makes you think gas will get cheaper again?

Maybe it'll drop a few cents here and there for a while... but the overall trend over time has been a steep upward path. Now that the oil companies and OPEC have gotten us used to $4/gallon, the next milestone on their agenda is $5/ gallon.

It's coming. No doubt.

[niteowl7710]

Monty for the record the last paragraph was a generalization of this entire thread, not directly to you personally. I figured that would be fairly obvious since there were no "you's or your's" involved. So while you might travel and rent a lot, I would gamble that most people here (the 95%) don't. If everyone were traveling and renting, the rental car business wouldn't be in so much trouble. I also happen to own a full-size, 4 door, RWD vehicle, and being that it has "Interceptor" in it's model name I would describe it as very zippy thank you.

Anyway I have to go find my ADHD medication amongt all these Red Bull cans so I can go play more WoW. I almost have my elf knight mage shaman up to Level 100. Pretty soon I'll be uber l33t. W00T!

[TurboKitty]

As for the two door Charger: how many people would buy a full size coupe? If you need a full size car to haul the whole family all the time, wouldn't it make far more sense to have 4 doors? If you don't need to carry 4-5 people in your car most of the time, why buy a full size car in first place?

Because not everyone who wants a coupe is someone who has children..... there are those of us that want one because we don't want or need a 4 door. Then there are those who do have a family and need a 4dr that will haul the kids, groceries, etc. At the same time, even people with families *want* something fun to drive and if they can't afford to get a reliable 4dr AND a sporty 2dr coupe, then they get a "mix" of both - a sport sedan....... which is what the Charger & 300 basically are.

As for the need to get a full size car if you don't have the need for one, there are people who don't like small cars (maybe they don't feel safe in them for example) so they choose something bigger. Everyone's different and not everyone wants to have the most practical this, the most practical that..... people want what they want.

[fumi]

Because not everyone who wants a coupe is someone who has children..... there are those of us that want one because we don't want or need a 4 door. Then there are those who do have a family and need a 4dr that will haul the kids, groceries, etc. At the same time, even people with families *want* something fun to drive and if they can't afford to get a reliable 4dr AND a sporty 2dr coupe, then they get a "mix" of both - a sport sedan....... which is what the Charger & 300 basically are.

As for the need to get a full size car if you don't have the need for one, there are people who don't like small cars (maybe they don't feel safe in them for example) so they choose something bigger. Everyone's different and not everyone wants to have the most practical this, the most practical that..... people want what they want.

True, but when too few people want a certain product to make it profitable, the manufacturers will just skip over them. The full size coupe just falls into that category.

I do believe the sports sedan offers the best of both worlds, a fun to drive car in a practical package. Back then you could only have the hottest version in 2-door form; now that the car companies are offering high performance sedans they are really killing the coupe market.

[sak]

Getting back to this new charger coupe, I would be very interested in buying this car. Aslong as it remained a hardtop and kept all of the cool styling. I always wondered when they were going to borrow mercedes hardtop technology. It looks alot smaller than the sedan so perhaps a turbo 4 could be an option alongside the v6 and hemi no?

Edited September 1, 2011 by sak

[Aaronw]

What makes you think gas will get cheaper again?

Maybe it'll drop a few cents here and there for a while... but the overall trend over time has been a steep upward path. Now that the oil companies and OPEC have gotten us used to $4/gallon, the next milestone on their agenda is $5/ gallon.

It's coming. No doubt.

We hit $5 / gallon here in 2005, now it is back to $3 ish. gas prices go up and down all the time. Personally I think when too many people are buying economy cars the oil companies flood the market to get people back into big fuel guzzlers. the 70s brought us high prices and the first real push for economy cars. The 80s and early 90s saw the auto makers move from cheap econoboxes to nice sporty cars that got good fuel economy. Many sedans in the 80s - 90s were getting 20-30 mpg or better. The small cars targeting fuel economy challenged the numbers you see on hybrids, Honda had CRX and Civics getting better than 40 mpg, Toyota had several getting high 30s.

The late 90s brought us $1 gas and mpg dropped even with the car makers that made their impact in the US market with their fuel economy. Toyota and Honda both dropped from 30+ to 20+ avg mpg. Toyota's pickup went from the Tacoma in 1996 getting 25 mpg, to less than 20 in 2002.

I doubt we will see $1 gas the next time, but I bet we get $2 gas again when the, alternative power plants (wind, nuke, natural gas) really start to get built, the economy improves and too many drivers are driving hybrids and other high mpg cars. They will sucker people in with cheap gas for a few years to, diminish interest in alternative power and get drivers back into their big fuel inefficient cars, then a year or two later they can fabricate another crisis so they can "temporarily" jack up prices again and get a few more years of record profits.

It might sound like tin foil hat time, but just look at the last 40 years af oil prices.

[Harry P.]

gas prices go up and down all the time.

Yes, in the short term. But I'm talking about the long term. Not one week to another, not even one year to another, but big-picture. Gas prices will never go down significantly for any extended length of time. There will always be another "reason" trotted out to us by the oil companies as to why the latest increase is "necessary."

[george 53]

Harry, at least 10 years ago, I read in Time or Newseek, where the oil companys decided to raise the price worldwide. They said if they raised the price of gas to 5 bucks a gallon for a while, THEN drop it down to 3 or 4 bucks, the public would be THANKFUL!!! And that's just what they're doin!!!

Edited September 2, 2011 by george 53

[Harry P.]

Harry, at least 10 years ago, I read in Time or Newseek, where the oil companys decided to raise the price worldwide. They said if they raised the price of gas to 5 bucks for a while, THEN drop it down to 3 or 4 bucks, the public would be THANKFUL!!! And that's just what they're doin!!!

Exactly! That's how they play the game. They jack up the price higher and higher... just to the point where the public begins to scream and the politicians begin to make noise, then they take it down a bit and we're all "relieved" that the price has gone down... but in reality the "lower" price is still higher than it was a year ago. That's their game... big jump in price, back it down a little but not as much as the big jump, so we're all happy the price has dropped a few cents... then repeat the process over and over. But always every increase more than the following decrease.

[Aaronw]

In the mid 90s I was paying $1.50-1.80 / gallon, in 2000-2001 I was paying $0.89 / gallon a quite significant drop. I agree that the raise was just to make people more willing to pay higher prices but I also think they manipulate prices to encourage larger less efficient cars. Just like a drug dealer get them hooked with low prices, then raise the price after their consumption increases. If you prefer think of it as a sale, get them in the store with low prices then interest them in the higher priced stuff that isn't on sale.

[sak]

What I cannot figure out is that when an oil refinery halts production for some reason, like hurricane katrina I believe, the prices goes up like almost instantly, becuase supply goes down. But price never go lower when new refineries gets built and goes online. When the prices do go eventually go down, its gradual process. The prices I believe are dictated by the supply and demand worldwide. I wonder if enough oil exists in North America to supply us. If so I think we should harness it and use it only within our borders and not be affected by global markets. But of course that would require restricted the big cars and trucks that all the joe rednecks love to drive.

Edited September 2, 2011 by sak

[Harry P.]

What I cannot figure out is that when an oil refinery halts production for some reason, like hurricane katrina I believe, the prices goes up like almost instantly, becuase supply goes down. But price never go lower when new refineries gets built and goes online. When the prices do go eventually go down, its gradual process. The prices I believe are dictated by the supply and demand worldwide.

Oil prices are not driven by supply and demand, they are manipulated by a combination of the oil companies and OPEC, and speculators who "bet" on the future price of oil and artificially drive the price up. Supply and demand may play a minor role, but there is a lot more going on behind the scenes regarding the price of oil than simple supply and demand. Right now the global supply of oil is greater than the demand; prices theoretically should be down, instead they are near historic highs.

[Kit Basher]

all the joe rednecks love to drive.

Hey! I are a redneck! (We do love to drive.)