Jantrix Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I brought a rat rod to contest this past weekend. Due to the cutoff year (1948) my rod ended up in the (post '48) street machine catagory because I used a 1950 ford pick-up cab. I must say I was not comfortable about having it there as it was competing against modified muscle cars, 50's customs and the like. All very shiny. Really shiny. And me with my matte paint. Do you think cars with flat/matte/suede finishes should have their own catagory? Is it fair to put them against builds with awesome gloss finishes where they might suffer in the eyes of a judge who prefers gloss? Jaxcon has added a rat rod/ beater catagory for which I am very thankful. But it's the only contest I have heard of that has. Thoughts, opinions, delusions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Most Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Since the Revell-Monogram cab is a '50, and Ford used the same cab from '48 to '52, why not try listing it as a '48 next time? Most judges at the shows I have been to didn't have any idea what they're looking at in the first place, and it would be 'technically' correct to refer to it as a '48 anyway... But anyway- I would love to see a flat or suede category. The only issue then would be, would 'rusty' or 'weathered' vehicles be included in that group as well, or would the rustbuckets get their own category? I can see someone with a flat-painted car taking offense to a rusty model beating his entry, or vice-versa. Edited October 17, 2011 by Chuck Most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) I agree. There should definitely be a category for flat and suede. You bet. The model car world, although more receptive these days, is still stuck on the Shiny-or-Nothing mentality. Rat Rods have really helped break down this tall wall. The other reason I think this is a good idea is that it does not allow both shiny and matte to compete in the same category. They are two different skills it seems to me, when it comes down to painting model cars . . . Hey, Rob, this is a great discussion starter, thanks! Edited October 17, 2011 by Dr. Cranky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LAone Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 out here i have seen a few shows/contest with a "looks good in suede" catagory. i think its about how many show up with this style, if they see more coming out, then they might add that catagory. you can always ask them about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjim Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I love SHINY :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMc Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I love SHINY :) Me too.....BUT after weathering ONE truck.....its a lot more work to pull it off.....Suede rules.....HOK w/o clear is a sweet look!! So I agree...Suede should be the category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trogdor Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I love SHINY :) Don't you go blaspheming in this place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whale392 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I can see both sides of this. Most people who model automobiles believe that an auto must be shiny, even though 98% of the real traveling population of autos have some degree of degradation/oxidation to their finishes. It is also a common misconception that a flat finish is 'the easy way out' when it comes to painting a model. These factors lead to a mental barrier with most judges. With that said, I believe the skill level at which the basics of modeling were completed at and the overall level the model was built to SHOULD be what is judged, shiny or not. I have seen some shiny paint that was laid over very poor workmanship, and I have seen some Suede/Flat paint laid over a flawless preparation/execution build. No matter the finish, it is the prep/overall work that should be judged. Do I believe that we need a 'suede' class at shows; no. Do I believe that judges need to break that 'shiny is where it's at' mentality....YUP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320wayne Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I've always been of the opinion that as tough as it is to make a shiny paint job look fantastic it is moreover difficult to make a weathered or primered finish look convincing. I have seen some shows that do offer up a rat rod category but I never felt it was done to seperate the shiny paint jobs from the "ratty" ones. I always looked at it from the persepctive that rat rods kind of made up their own category. I also feel that a primered finish could be judged up against a shiny one, equally, if the judging staff is equally qualified to clarify how well each was done and how much work went into acheiving each finish. I have even attended one show where a primered street rod garnered the Best Finish award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjim Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 It wouldn't be fair to unshiny painted builds all together. I never plan on building anything that's not SHINY, but I wouldn't want to see a rat rod in the same category as a primered lead sled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbowser Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 This is a tough one. Where's the line between a suede custom and a rat? Slightly weathered versus junkyard dog? A racecar on the pace lap versus in the garage at Bristol after some "rubbing"? There are many shades of gray (no pun intended). I think it boils down to the contest and where the judges feel comfortable/knowledgable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie8575 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 This is a very interesting question, and I think one that deserves some very careful and thoughtful analysis. On the one hand, you have a class of model (rods) and it should imply that a rod is a rod, and, shiny or not, should be in that class, there to sit judged amongst its peers. Yet, on the other hand, because of the innate biases of most people towards bright, shiny objects, these rusted masterpieces all too often suffer from lack of attention, and that can result in truly superior models losing, which, in addition to being unfair, is discouraging the purpose of judging- to praise the truly successful builds. Perhaps the time has come for a special "beater" class. As it becomes more and more common to build in that manner, I could see it coming to some of the major shows, and it may catch on well enough to work. Charlie Larkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunajammer Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 One of the highest ranking models I've ever seen personally was a flat finished, meticulous rod. But it all harkens back to my first piece of advice ever offered to me for contests. "Gotcha Factor." The gut wow. I think it's in our DNA to perk up to shiny objects. But regardless of sheen, if the immediate impact is wow, even before pen lights, magnifying glasses and calipers come out, you're halfway home. A separate category for sheen I'm afraid will happen slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf15 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 The classes should be separate , pitting one against the other is really not fair to either party . I spent decades weathering everything that moved or stood still for model railroading , it is an art form in it's own right . To support the other side of the coin , go to the " Achilles Heel " thread here on the forum . There you will find what modelers consider their biggest stumbling block , achieving a smooth , shiny , near flawless paint job . Hard work goes into both but they really should be judged separately . Donn Yost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stone Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 This truck took a third place in basically the same category (Street Machine) at an IPMS show. It beat out several other cars (I can't remember how many, maybe a dozen) that had gloss and satin finishes, and some of the gloss finishes weren't very well executed, some were. The two entries that took first and second were both done by Steve Boutte, a master at painting in my opinion, and I don't remember what cars they were, but I'd bet they were flawless. A judge told me the reason it beat the other entries is because I had listed my work with the entry card, including a chop, channel, lowering, engine swap, and a few kitbashed and scratchbuilt parts. They said if I hadn't listed the modifications, it would've been overlooked because they didn't realize it wasn't built OOB with wiring. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not so much about the finish, it's about the entire build, and if everything is cleanly done. I also think it's obvious on a lot of builds whether it's a botched gloss paintjob, or if it's intended to be satin. I would hope the judges would be able to tell that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Most Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 It is also a common misconception that a flat finish is 'the easy way out' when it comes to painting a model. These factors lead to a mental barrier with most judges. Heard that! Getting a car body to look like it has sat in an overgrown fencerow for thirty years takes just as much prep, planning, and exectution (perhaps even moreso) as a 'just buffed 'er out for the AMBR contest, mirror-gloss shine. The time and effort are just spent in other areas. And I've still seen some questionable bodywork under flat finishes too- and I'm not talking about intentional flaws either, I'm talking things like glue thumbprints and smudges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Great input everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabsscale1 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 In the last couple years in a couple categories in our contest ratrods and or suede cars have won the class they were in. One even won best in show . Our contest lets the contestants vote on the models so the contestants have to do the judging and that is the cars they pick . to me it is just as hard to do or harder to do a weathered and rusted one than to paint a shiny one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 No, i dont. Cars is cars is cars. That said. Traditional rods are great. "Rat rods" (god i hate that term) Are by very definition, JUNK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Junk is Gunk and Gunk is FUN! LONG LIVE RUST . . . but seriously though, it's something judges and even at NNL shows are never ready for . . . I think people react to suede, flat, and any other type of paint job that is NOT SHINY in a dismissive sort of way, they might like it, sure, but the SHINY is still king. I know of a magazine editor or two who could care less about anything that is not shiny, anything that is not straight car related, etc . . . That's the nature of the beast, but I think things are changing for the better as more builders have fun building rat rods, junkers, daily drivers, beaters . . . you name it. And lots of builders are doing a great job getting those vehicles out to the show benches . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Cranky Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I tend to follow the trends in military modeling in particular with tanks and vehicles, and current fashion calls for burned out, rusted out, out-of-service vehicles. That stuff has had a deep impact on me as a builder of civilian vehicles. I want to build models that reflect a certain realism, and heck it's a lot of fun to do . . . Don't get me wrong, I still love the shiney, billet-laden builds, but I also get a big kick (and boost to the imagination) out of building NOT SHINY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darin Bastedo Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think that it depends on the type of build you are doing. I think rat rods where a significant amount of weathering and distressing is done should have there own "weathered" class along with a seperate class for beaters and junkers, If it is simply a car with a flat or suede paint job, then it should be judged along side the shiney ones. Keep in mind though that when I judge a contest, a well done flat or suede paint job gets slightly more respect from me than a buried in clear shiny car. that is because you have to lay the flat paint down smooth with no chance of correcting it, where the shiny guys and polish and clear coat until it looks right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 i do retract my previous statement - rat rods DO deserve thier own class Junkyard dioramas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantrix Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 i do retract my previous statement - rat rods DO deserve thier own class. Junkyard dioramas. I'm glad not everyone shares your views. My rat rod whipped every glossy street machine in the class (much to my surprise) and won Best Kitbash. You can't judge something by the blanket term "rat rod". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachinistMark Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 execpt, thats not really a rat rod. rat rod: some rusty, usually poorly buit monstrosity. that ..thing is a rat rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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