Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 ...Morality plays no part in it. It's simple free-market capitalism. As long as you don't misrepresent what you're selling as something it's not, price alone is not a "moral" issue, it's a question of what you think the market will bear. The morality of "free-market capitalism" has been endlessly debated by philosophers, politicians and theologians. Definitions vary, and agreeing to disagree on what is a philosophical and semantic issue is where I'll shut up.
Daddyfink Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 The whole idea of ebay if for folks to sell and make money, for themselves and ebay! This is not a social experiment on fairness and being nice, it is a business. If the seller wishes to sell it for that price and someone is willing to pay it, who an I to tell them they are wrong. Would I pay it, no, I have that choice, like everyone else, and will exercise it. The only thing I have against it is how many pages it takes up that I have to weed through to get to something good! It is almost like SPAM on ebay to me. Caveat Emptor!
Chuck Most Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 If somebody walked up to you and offered $75 for your Revell 1990 Mustang LX, would you say "no, it's only worth $20"? I would sell it for $75. I might... but first I'd suggest the guy seek out the services of a good head-injury specialist.
gtx6970 Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) I agree with Harry on this one. Seller has ovboiusly stumbed onto a profitable idea. As far as parting out vintage kits,,,,,,, if no one is willing to pay the price to buy it whole,,,, why not part it out ? A seller can't afford to sit on dead inventory forever and still be profitable. You would be surprised how many people that have vintage kits needing only small parts to complete the one they have. I know a guy who has been doing it for years ,,,and doing quite well at it As far as finding a used junker ( of any kind or any age) that actually has saleable parts on it for $75 ,,,,,,,,,,,,good luck with that Edited September 22, 2013 by gtx6970
Erik Smith Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 The only thing I have against it is how many pages it takes up that I have to weed through to get to something good! It is almost like SPAM on ebay to me. Caveat Emptor! Yes. I agree. Going through seven hundred NASCAR decals to find a model...ugh.
Mark Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Yes. I agree. Going through seven hundred NASCAR decals to find a model...ugh. The only thing that bugs me is that eBay lets this stuff "roll over" time after time after time, and you've got to plow through that flotsam to get to anything decent. Every once in a while, I do a search under "Pyro" to look for a couple of kits. I've seen the same four dollar instruction sheets turn up in every search I've done in the last three or four years. I guess eBay wants to keep the "available item" count up there...
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Question for Bill, then I'll let it go. If I read you correctly, what this guy is doing is "immoral" based strictly on his asking price, correct? He's not misrepresenting anything, he's not trying to fool or con anyone, he's up front and honest in his descriptions...right? It's about his prices. So when did he cross from honest seller to immorality? If he sells a bumper for 5 bucks, it that "immoral?" What if he sells it for 3 bucks? Still "immoral?" Or is he ok at 3? Who decides at what price level "immorality" sets in? And how is that price level determined? See what I mean? How can you tie the concept of morality to an asking price?
Tom Geiger Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) I don't get why so many of you guys characterize this guy as "immoral" or "slimy" or whatever. He's not trying to fool anyone, he's not trying to con anyone, he's not trying to pretend the stuff he has for sale is anything other than what it is. He's not saying the stuff is "rare" or "hard to find" or anything. He lists his parts, he lists his price. In his descriptions he goes out of his way to make it very clear what exactly he is selling. Very open and honest. There isn't even a bit of con going on here. You as the potential buyer are completely free to either buy from him or not. But how is it that if you decide you don't want to pay his asking price, that makes him "immoral" or "slimy?" I don't know the guy, never have dealt with him, but I just don't see how you can fairly label the guy as immoral or whatever. It's called the free market. How is what he is doing in any way "immoral?" Completely agree! Guys, most of your replies are that of hobbyists not businessmen. As a hobbyist, I am happy to send you a part you need for free if it helps you finish a build. I give away a lot of parts. I sort my parts into little plastic bags for fun. Everything I do in the hobby is for fun, friendship and relaxation, not profit. On the other hand, there is a business side to this hobby, Those involved in it, whether they are kit manufacturers, resin casters or kit / parts sellers need to be able to earn a return on the time they invest so they can feed their families. Your position is like saying you should do your job for free. In fact I just checked something. Modelhaus lists front and rear bumpers for the AMT '51 Chevy kit. These are pretty common parts and I'd be happy to send you a pair from my parts box for free. Still, if you want the Modelhaus version you will pay $15 plus $5 shipping for a total of $20. And nobody has a problem with that! But if I took my bumpers and listed them on eBay for $20 with free shipping, I'd wind up the subject of a thread here! Not fair guys! Edited September 22, 2013 by Tom Geiger
southpier Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 but Modelhaus has excellent quality and good reputation
Tom Geiger Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 but Modelhaus has excellent quality and good reputation So does AMT, I'd be selling their parts. And I just noticed that PJ Toys is being discussed on the Moebius Ford truck thread too. As we know, "any publicity is good publicity". And you know that people here not acquainted with him, went to eBay and are looking at his auctions. And somebody bought something!
Guest Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 I agree with Harry in that no one has to buy from this guy. Apparently, some people feel that they do. Basically, it boils down to buyers who are knowledgable and those who aren't.
Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Question for Bill, then I'll let it go. If I read you correctly, what this guy is doing is "immoral" based strictly on his asking price, correct? He's not misrepresenting anything, he's not trying to fool or con anyone, he's up front and honest in his descriptions...right? It's about his prices. So when did he cross from honest seller to immorality? If he sells a bumper for 5 bucks, it that "immoral?" What if he sells it for 3 bucks? Still "immoral?" Or is he ok at 3? Who decides at what price level "immorality" sets in? And how is that price level determined? See what I mean? How can you tie the concept of morality to an asking price? I understand your position entirely Harry, and I agree in principle...to a point. That's what makes this a difficult problem for me to argue one side or the other. A question similar to yours can be raised about how "fair and reasonable interest" on loaned money is differentiated from "usury". Opinions vary there as well, but there are specific legal definitions that separate the two...depending on local laws or social mores. Is it "moral" for a pawnshop to charge 300% annual interest on a SECURED loan (and KEEP your property if you miss a payment), when credit-cards are limited to around 20% or so on UNSECURED loans?? They get it because they can, by taking advantage of people who have no access to lenders who charge "fair" interest rates. Does that make it right? I think if the guy was asking about 1/2 of his current prices, I'd still find them high, but possibly "fair and reasonable". Anyone who will pay his current asking prices is mentally handicapped, so by definition he's taking advantage of ANYONE who pays his prices. Again, QED. Edited September 22, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy
Danno Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Completely agree! Guys, most of your replies are that of hobbyists not businessmen. As a hobbyist, I am happy to send you a part you need for free if it helps you finish a build. I give away a lot of parts. I sort my parts into little plastic bags for fun. Everything I do in the hobby is for fun, friendship and relaxation, not profit. On the other hand, there is a business side to this hobby, Those involved in it, whether they are kit manufacturers, resin casters or kit / parts sellers need to be able to earn a return on the time they invest so they can feed their families. Your position is like saying you should do your job for free. In fact I just checked something. Modelhaus lists front and rear bumpers for the AMT '51 Chevy kit. These are pretty common parts and I'd be happy to send you a pair from my parts box for free. Still, if you want the Modelhaus version you will pay $15 plus $5 shipping for a total of $20. And nobody has a problem with that! But if I took my bumpers and listed them on eBay for $20 with free shipping, I'd wind up the subject of a thread here! Not fair guys! TRUE dat!!!
Danno Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 but Modelhaus has excellent quality and good reputation Only because somebody hasn't been ripping them as 'immoral.'
Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Still, if you want the Modelhaus version you will pay $15 plus $5 shipping for a total of $20. And nobody has a problem with that! But if I took my bumpers and listed them on eBay for $20 with free shipping, I'd wind up the subject of a thread here! Not fair guys! Apples and oranges. Modelhaus sourced the originals, bought materials to make molds, MADE molds, bought materials to MAKE parts, actually MADE the parts, then PLATED the parts...kinda a whole different ball of wax. They expended EFFORT to PRODUCE something, and I have no problem paying for that EFFORT, and the MATERIALS that made it possible. I do have a problem with paying for buy-low, sell HIGH HIGH HIGH.
Thatswhatshesaid Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 I think the issue a lot of people have with this guy is that he is selling 'parts' but the 'parts' are obviously coming from a complete kit that has been taken apart. Its also really annoying to look for a certain 'complete' kit and have to weed through 200 listings of his 'kit' part by part. I'm not saying what this guy is doing is immoral or shady. There is a sucker born every minute. For me its just an annoyance factor. I will say that his not combining of shipping is a little shady though. $5 per part to ship and he can't put two in the same envelope?
jeffs396 Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) My biggest beef with this seller is that his auctions pop up almost daily in my 'saved search results' email notifications... When I see I've gotten 10-12 hits on 'AMT Bronco', I know before scrolling down that it's his 'part out' auctions! but I still have to look thru in case not ALL are his and there might be a complete kit up for bid! Oh, and... Edited September 22, 2013 by jeffs396
Danno Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) I understand your position entirely Harry, and I agree in principle...to a point. That's what makes this a difficult problem for me to argue one side or the other. A question to yours can be raised about how "fair and reasonable interest" on loaned money is differentiated from "usury". Opinions vary there as well, but there are specific legal definitions that separate the two...depending on local laws or social mores. Is it "moral" for a pawnshop to charge 300% annual interest on a SECURED loan, when credit-cards are limited to around 20% or so on UNSECURED loans?? They get it because they can, by taking advantage of people who have no access to lenders who charge "fair" interest rates. Does that make it right? I think if the guy was asking about 1/2 of his current prices, I'd still find them high, but possibly "fair and reasonable". Anyone who will pay his current asking prices is mentally handicapped, so by definition he's taking advantage of ANYONE who pays his prices. Again, QED. Who says ANY lender charges "fair" interest rates? Harry's question applies across the board: Who has the moral authority to decide what is a "fair" price or interest rate and at what tipping point that "fair" price or rate becomes "immoral"? A free and open market self-regulates because the consumer has the right, privilege, and responsibility to decide for himself what he chooses to pay ~ and anyone who chooses to charge more than that personal price-point does so without the consumer's business. If the seller's price-point exceeds too many consumers' price-points, the seller fails . . . and morality/immorality doesn't even enter into the equation. To have someone - anyone - deciding "morality/immorality" of price-points for those too stupid to know what they are paying and whether it's a good price-point for them or whether they can afford it regardless, is to empower that 'someone' to arbitrarily make decisions for those "too stupid" people and usurps their freedom of choice. That's what's wrong with things today! Too many self-appointed nannys trying to make everyone else's decisions for them because they are "too stupid" to take care of themselves. In the golden olden days, snake oil salesman were run out of town by the consumers, not by someone deciding whether the snake oil was 'moral' or 'immoral.' Otherwise, I have no opinion on the topic! Edited September 22, 2013 by Danno
Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 ...I'm not saying what this guy is doing is immoral or shady. There is a sucker born every minute... So in your world, taking advantage of a sucker is morally okay? You feel no obligation to help out someone who may not be as smart or as knowledgeable as you? I just kinda think if a few more of us treated other folks, even suckers, like WE'D like to be treated (even when WE were being suckers) the world might be a little nicer place to live.
bill_rules Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Apples and oranges. Modelhaus sourced the originals, bought materials to make molds, MADE molds, bought materials to MAKE parts, actually MADE the parts, then PLATED the parts...kinda a whole different ball of wax. They expended EFFORT to PRODUCE something, and I have no problem paying for that EFFORT, and the MATERIALS that made it possible. I do have a problem with paying for buy-low, sell HIGH HIGH HIGH. But Modelhaus is selling copies of parts created and copyrighted by someone else. There's no "moral" issues there?
Guest Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Apples and oranges. Modelhaus sourced the originals, bought materials to make molds, MADE molds, bought materials to MAKE parts, actually MADE the parts, then PLATED the parts...kinda a whole different ball of wax. They expended EFFORT to PRODUCE something, and I have no problem paying for that EFFORT, and the MATERIALS that made it possible. I do have a problem with paying for buy-low, sell HIGH HIGH HIGH. Right! With Don's parts, you get a nicely chromed (or unchromed) part with no mold lines. You won't get that with a kit part. I'll gladly pay Don's prices for his parts! When you think about the amount of work that goes into his stuff, the price is a steal!
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Anyone who will pay his current asking prices is mentally handicapped... I assume you're being sarcastic. Obviously that statement isn't true. As far as the ebay seller's morals, you and I will have to agree to disagree.
Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Who says ANY lender charges "fair" interest rates? Harry's question applies across the board: Who has the moral authority to decide what is a "fair" price or interest rate and at what tipping point that "fair" price or rate becomes "immoral"? Your friendly government has set itself up as the MORAL ARBITER of most questions arising from human interactions. Laws, including usury laws, arose in response to MORAL issues, NOT the other way around, because PEOPLE don't always behave MORALLY. We seem to have forgotten entirely the concept of "right and wrong", and have come to rely solely on "legal or illegal" for our guidance.
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 But Modelhaus is selling copies of parts created and copyrighted by someone else. There's no "moral" issues there? Good question! Anyone have an answer?
mk11 Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 I have to disagree. He's doing absolutely nothing that can be honestly defined as shady or immoral. I could agree that it would be "shady" if he was trying to pass off his stuff as "rare" or if he tried to misrepresent his stuff in any way... but he's not doing that. Like I said, he seems to go out of his way to make it very clear what he's selling, so how you see him as "preying" on anyone is a mystery to me. To deem a man "immoral" because you think the prices he charges are too high doesn't make sense to me. Is Prada "immoral" because they sell handbags with a designer label on them for $500? Is Starbucks "immoral" because they charge five bucks for a cup of coffee? Are they "preying" on boobs who don't know that a cup of coffee can be had at McDonalds for a buck? Of course not. They sell a product at whatever price they want to set, and everyone is free to buy their product or not. Morality plays no part in it. It's simple free-market capitalism. As long as you don't misrepresent what you're selling as something it's not, price alone is not a "moral" issue, it's a question of what you think the market will bear. Apparently the market 'bears' a lot more than we think. There's a guy selling nos and obsolete mopar stuff online for absolutely outrageous prices that came to my attention because he tried to assimilate a used '68 Ford truck door into his pricing structure ($750 ) To many folk, these guys will always seem like the dark side of capitalism, slightly less despicable than the innkeepers that triple rates near natural disaster zones. mike
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