What if?

[johnbuzzed]

On a lighter side: What if we (as individuals, of course) all still had all of the models that we had put together over the course of our lives, way back to the beginning, as well as the unbuilt and in-the-works kits that we let go for whatever reason?

[johnbuzzed]

What if NASCAR didn't count laps under caution as actual race laps?

[Harry P.]

Still, there was very limited production of civilian cars and trucks. You would need government approval to purchase one based on your need. For instance a doctor making house calls may have qualified for a new car. Or others involved in war production may have qualified for new trucks. Otherwise it was make due with what you had.

Actually there was an existing small stockpile of civilian cars when we entered the war, and like you said, you could qualify for one of those cars if you could prove to the government that you were an "essential driver." As the war went on, that small stockpile of civilian cars was gradually assigned to these "essential drivers" until the stockpile was used up. There was no civilian auto production from early 1942 until the war ended in 1945, when the auto plants were converted from military production back to civilian auto manufacturing.

There was one Chevy plant that continued production of civilian GM auto parts (not auto production) throughout the war in order to help keep their existing civilian cars on the road.

[johnbuzzed]

Would be neat to build a B-24 with the Ford blue oval here and there, or Corsair with the Goodyear logo, or a Wildcat or Avenger with the GM logo.

[mistermodel]

Amen to the post of 1:14 by Kyle.

What if Sprint Cup cars - you know, "stock cars"- were required to run the same types of engines that were available in them from the factory? No "corporate" or aftermarket motors.

fords would win all the time ,that's what.lol

[kalbert]

Actually there was a existing small stockpile of civilian cars when we entered the war, and like you said, you could qualify for one of those cars if you could prove to the government that you were an "essential driver." As the war went on, that small stockpile of civilian cars was gradually assigned to these "essential drivers" until the stockpile was used up. There was no civilian auto production from early 1942 until the war ended in 1945, when the auto plants were converted from military production back to civilian auto manufacturing.

There was one Chevy plant that continued production of civilian GM auto parts (not auto production) throughout the war in order to help keep their existing civilian cars on the road.

I gave up, you don't have to belabor this point anymore, and Tom's post was in agreement with you. You couldn't sit there and allow another forum member to have the last word, even if it was in support of you. You must open your mouth and add your piece, just to be sure we all know that you know more about it than he does too. Well played sir, a classic know-it-all approach.

[Agent G]

Sometimes "more stuff" and not "better stuff" is just what's needed, as exemplified by the Sherman tanks and Soviet small arms of WWII. They weren't better, there were just a lot more of them and they were less complex, ergo, easier to maintain and less subject to harsh conditions than their counterparts.

The Sherman was never intended to fight against other tanks. US Army doctrine provided for "Tank Destroyers" to handle that job. Realization of the error came too late, thus quantity took presidence.

Now simplicity is another thing. Massed produced, simple to operate and simple to maintain armored vehicles/weapons/equipment were the backbone of both armies mentioned.

The M1 Garand was the only gas operated semi automatic rifle in use by any of the combatants at the beginning of the war. Germany took 5 years to develop a similar weapon, Great Britain Russia and Japan never fielded one at all. Simple, is not an adjective used to describe a M1, yet rugged reliable and superbly accurate are.

Without a global war to spur development, where would we be today?

Without a cold war and a space race, where would we be?

Of course the aliens contributed greatly. Ask anyone here in Nevada.

G

[Harry P.]

Of course the aliens contributed greatly. Ask anyone here in Nevada.

At least the CIA finally admitted that there really is an Area 51. That's progress!

[lordairgtar]

I learn something every time Harry posts. If you others can't deal with it, then don't read. My historical automotive library pretty much jibes with whatever Harry says. Everyone has opinions, so everyone needs to just chill. Someone else here had extensive knowledge of a certain make of car, but as usual, some of you got into a pissing match with him and now, I lost a great source of info because he or she won't post on it anymore.

[Fabrux]

But seriously, though, what if GM had been involved in bailing out American Motors? Say they went through with their rotary engine and both the Vega and the Pacer got it. Both cars fly off dealer lots and the Kenosha plant helps build Vegas instead of Chryslers...

[Tom Geiger]

I learn something every time Harry posts. If you others can't deal with it, then don't read. My historical automotive library pretty much jibes with whatever Harry says. Everyone has opinions, so everyone needs to just chill. Someone else here had extensive knowledge of a certain make of car, but as usual, some of you got into a pissing match with him and now, I lost a great source of info because he or she won't post on it anymore.

In the July issue of Model Cars, Darryl Gassaway penned the Editor's Corner for Gregg. He writes:

"My second topic is one that may cause some controversy, the Model Car Magazine Forum. Gregg asked me several times why I don't post on the forum and I admit my answer was one he doesn't want to hear. I rarely go to the forum because of all the bickering that goes on there. I know criticism can be a positive thing when it is presented in a positive way, but many people seem to enjoy pointing out mistakes and then beating the mistake into the dirt. Let's all be honest here, there has never been a perfectly built model. As builders we know that sometimes we have choices to make during the build. These choices separate the elite builders from the majority of us, but even the elite builders sometimes compromise during the building process. This builder puts their heart and soul into their builds, no one builds with the idea of creating a junky model. As modelers we should embrace each and every build regardless of the skill level of the builder. I hope the forum can become a friendlier place for all builders."

And that's a sad commentary. I posted it since I know a bunch of you won't see it because you don't get the magazine. Every time someone posts that we should support the magazine, guys here are brazen enough to find fault with that, saying "I'm just here for the free stuff."

[Casey]

But seriously, though, what if GM had been involved in bailing out American Motors? Say they went through with their rotary engine and both the Vega and the Pacer got it. Both cars fly off dealer lots and the Kenosha plant helps build Vegas instead of Chryslers...

The Wankel rotary engine had issues from the start, so it never really stood much chance of seeing production in a GM vehicle. If it had worked out and the Wankel's emissions output could've been decreased to acceptable levels, I'm sure there would've been some mini-cars from GM, and likely AMC, too. The AMVan pushmobile comes to mind as a potential recipient on the AMC side.

As with Chrysler, the Jeep brand and lineup is what really would've appealed to GM, and looking at the then current AMC lineup, it was pretty clear there was not much else to build upon. AMC partnered with Renault on the Alliance/Encore to get a modern, compact FWD car, as AMC never had the money to create all new vehicles. I don't things would've turned out much differently had GM purchased AMC instead of Chrysler. GM already had a plant in Janesville, WI, so adding another outdated plant in Kenosha, WI would've likely only added more debt.

Buying AMC seemed akin to buying a used donor car- you had to buy it whole, but you really only bought it with the intention of stripping off the good parts and scrapping the old, outdated, worn-out parts and shell.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I gave up, you don't have to belabor this point anymore, and Tom's post was in agreement with you. You couldn't sit there and allow another forum member to have the last word, even if it was in support of you. You must open your mouth and add your piece, just to be sure we all know that you know more about it than he does too. Well played sir, a classic know-it-all approach.

So sad that Harry is chastised for being a "know-it-all" when in reality he's simply offering more complete and correct information than some forum members might otherwise have access to.

So sad that answering a question with added information that puts things in a clearer context is viewed by some as exhibiting some sort of ego problem.

Beyond sad. It's pathetic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What if more people were happy that someone knowledgeable takes the time and makes the effort to provide correct information, rather than viewing it as a personal affront ?

[Tom Geiger]

. I don't things would've turned out much differently had GM purchased AMC instead of Chrysler. GM already had a plant in Janesville, WI, so adding another outdated plant in Kenosha, WI would've likely only added more debt.

Buying AMC seemed akin to buying a used donor car- you had to buy it whole, but you really only bought it with the intention of stripping off the good parts and scrapping the old, outdated, worn-out parts and shell.

Actually AMC was a good deal for Chrysler. The Jeep brand alone was worth the price. Chrysler shifted the Diplomat / Fifth Avenue RWD production to Kenosha and got some more miles out of that tooling and kept people working.

A funny thing happened at the 'New' Chrysler. Upon looking at what they got, they realized that this little company had just landed Motor Trend Car of The Year with the new Jeep Grand Cherokee with little to no resources. Chrysler was experimenting with shortening the design cycle of new cars then, and decided to try an experiment. They took the AMC design team, moved an equal number of engineers from Chrysler to Kenosha and told them to design something totally new, and to see how quickly they could do this. They didn't expect the car they designed to ever go to market, but once they were done there was something very interesting about the car so Bob Lutz put it in production... the car? The Viper!

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tom Geiger

[Guest]

What if Detail Master created their photoetched products on rubber backing, without the "sprue"?

Earlier on they were. I have a set for the 67 GTX from them on rubber backing.

[southpier]

. . . thread starters had spell check?

[southpier]

In the July issue of Model Cars, Darryl Gassaway penned the Editor's Corner for Gregg. He writes:

"My second topic is one that may cause some controversy, the Model Car Magazine Forum. Gregg asked me several times why I don't post on the forum and I admit my answer was one he doesn't want to hear. I rarely go to the forum because of all the bickering that goes on there. I know criticism can be a positive thing when it is presented in a positive way, but many people seem to enjoy pointing out mistakes and then beating the mistake into the dirt. Let's all be honest here, there has never been a perfectly built model. As builders we know that sometimes we have choices to make during the build. These choices separate the elite builders from the majority of us, but even the elite builders sometimes compromise during the building process. This builder puts their heart and soul into their builds, no one builds with the idea of creating a junky model. As modelers we should embrace each and every build regardless of the skill level of the builder. I hope the forum can become a friendlier place for all builders."

And that's a sad commentary. I posted it since I know a bunch of you won't see it because you don't get the magazine. Every time someone posts that we should support the magazine, guys here are brazen enough to find fault with that, saying "I'm just here for the free stuff."

I read that, too. and thought to myself: why doesn't he lead by example.

[johnbuzzed]

Earlier on they were. I have a set for the 67 GTX from them on rubber backing.

Are you sure that's Detail Master and not Model Car Garage?

[Aaronw]

On the no WW2 end of things I think it is fair to say it is close to a draw. The war definitely pushed some technology forward, while holding other less militaristic technology back.

More to the point of where it applies to the subject of this site is where automotive tech may have gone without the World War and cultural shifts that came from the returning veterans. The Corvette and Thunderbird were both inspired by the relatively new interest in small European styled sports cars as many returning GIs were interested in the cars they had seen while serving in Europe. Similarly returning veterans were very closely affiliated with the hotrod and custom motorcycle movement post war.

[Guest]

Are you sure that's Detail Master and not Model Car Garage?

i will have to look. You may be right.

[lordairgtar]

So viper could have been the new AMX had AMC had money to do that car.

[Agent G]

On the no WW2 end of things I think it is fair to say it is close to a draw. The war definitely pushed some technology forward, while holding other less militaristic technology back.

More to the point of where it applies to the subject of this site is where automotive tech may have gone without the World War and cultural shifts that came from the returning veterans. The Corvette and Thunderbird were both inspired by the relatively new interest in small European styled sports cars as many returning GIs were interested in the cars they had seen while serving in Europe. Similarly returning veterans were very closely affiliated with the hotrod and custom motorcycle movement post war.

Motorcycles as well. Some would say returning veterans were the fuel that propelled the motorcycle and motorcyclists, into the mainstream.

G

[Joe Handley]

So viper could have been the new AMX had AMC had money to do that car.

I suddenly wish there was an easily acquired AMX kit!

Edited September 12, 2013 by Joe Handley

[mikemodeler]

I was back in Kenosha visiting my parents last week and happened to drive by the old AMC/Chrysler factory and it has been leveled! Still saw a lot of AMC cars in the area but nothing like the 70s and 80s! Even as recently as 8 years ago you could see the influence of both makes on the town as there were plenty of older AMCs on the road as well as new Chrysler products.

Sad to see parts of our manufacturing history disappear but it is a reality of the changes we have seen in this country. I find it ironic that the domestic manufacturers are the ones tearing down factories and the import brands are expanding and building their facilities here.

[Harry P.]

A funny thing happened at the 'New' Chrysler. Upon looking at what they got, they realized that this little company had just landed Motor Trend Car of The Year with the new Jeep Grand Cherokee with little to no resources. Chrysler was experimenting with shortening the design cycle of new cars then, and decided to try an experiment. They took the AMC design team, moved an equal number of engineers from Chrysler to Kenosha and told them to design something totally new, and to see how quickly they could do this. They didn't expect the car they designed to ever go to market, but once they were done there was something very interesting about the car so Bob Lutz put it in production... the car? The Viper!

Ok, at the risk of "kalbert" jumping all over me again for being a "know-it-all," I have never heard this version.

I was under the impression that the Viper was conceived at the Chrysler Advanced Design Studios in Carlsbad, California, in the late '80s, Bob Lutz liked what he saw, and being a "car guy" rather than a bean counter, gave the green light to produce it. I have never heard any version where Chrysler engineers were sent to Kenosha and told to come up with something new, or where any AMC designers were involved.

Again... not to be a "know it all," just want to hear more about this, as I've never heard this story before.