Joe Handley Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Does any new car of the same size weight less than its equivalent model from the 60's or 70's? Scott Probably not, my XJ Cherokee and Dad's first XJ were built 10 years apart (his was an '88 while mine is a '98), and even though they're the same basic vehicle (lots of parts interchangability), mine is at least a 200-400 pounds heavier than his first was. Granted, his first was about as stripped at possible (didn't even have a passenger side mirror!) And mine is the high end Limited model, but mine also has a more intensive HVAC system and bigger dash to accomidate it, more electronics, dual airbags, further unibody stiffening, ect, and that all adds up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 It's tough to define "equivalent model". The recent Mustangs, if I'm not mistaken, are also considerably heavier than their older brethren. The current Camaro is around 3700 lbs. The '69 was around 3300. But here's a thought. A Cirrus SR22 airplane has 4 seats, a 550 cu.in., 300+ HP engine, an over-30 foot wingspan, it FLIES and goes almost 200 MPH (while carrying 4 fat adults and over 80 gallons of fuel). It also has at least twice the onboard electronics of a car, two complete sets of controls, air conditioning, AND a parachute that lets the whole mess down gently in the event of catastrophic failure. It weighs less than 2500 pounds. My point is that 4100 pounds of car is sloppily, ridiculously innefficient to carry one out-of-shape butt to work and back. What's the fuselage made out of though? Are those some sort of metal, 'glass, or some other sort of composite skinned and what kind of material is it framed in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DynoMight Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 What's the fuselage made out of though? Are those some sort of metal, 'glass, or some other sort of composite skinned and what kind of material is it framed in? Probably real thin aluminum, glass is probably lexan/plexi. Engine and prop is probably 400 pounds at the most. Frame is probably aluminum tubing, wires. Skin is probably some type of cloth that is hard, but really light, probably Fiberglas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) What's the fuselage made out of though? Are those some sort of metal, 'glass, or some other sort of composite skinned and what kind of material is it framed in? Probably real thin aluminum, glass is probably lexan/plexi. Frame is probably aluminum tubing, wires. Skin is probably some type of cloth that is hard, but really light, probably Fiberglas. In actual fact, there is no "frame" in a Cirrus. Since 1995, one of my specialties has been the structural repair and reconstruction of these aircraft after severe damage, and I've become intimately familiar with their engineering. I also worked extensively on composite sailplanes with similar construction back in the '80s The fuselage is a monocoque design, which simply means the skin is "stressed" and carries the structural loads. It's made very much like a plastic model airplane, The fuselage is made in two halves in molds, and literally "glued" together. This is 1/2 of the fuselage skin, in the mold. The fuselage shell itself is a foam-core composite sandwich. The foam core is roughly 1/4" to 1/2" thick, and the fiberglass skins average about .050" thick. My avatar is a single-passenger, single-seat vehicle using the same technology. The design weight is around 600 pounds (MUCH heavier than necessary if it didn't have to incorporate crash-protection for operation in a world full of heavy vehicles). Edited August 24, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 That would explain why they're as light and expensive (more than $800k) as they are then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) That would explain why they're as light and expensive (more than $800k) as they are then. I knew somebody would say that. When introduced, the aircraft was in the $200,000 range. Lotsa upgrades and redesigns have pumped the price WAY up over the past few years, BUT...THE TECHNOLOGY IS ADAPTABLE TO MASS-PRODUCED CARS, and COULD BE COST-COMPETITIVE. Economics of scale, ya know? And just like the oil-companies, most car companies persist in living in the past, doing business-as-usual with grossly heavy vehicles that incorporate silly bells and whistles in a vacuous nod to "progress". And the whole "even though we have solutions to ALL the world's problems staring us in the face, we're going to drag our feet and go forward as slowly as humanly possible, because we're either too stupid to recognize the future when it's knocking on the door, or we're just too afraid to make BIG changes" mentality IRKS THE LIVING SNOT OUT OF ME. Edited August 24, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 What irked me tonight ? Some jerk riding my bumper with his bright on because I was doing the speed limit . Did he not see the people in front of me , like I could run them over. So I just tapped the brake , did not phase him . So I braked slowly so he would not hit me then got over to the right lane moved up in traffic . He must have thought it was his lane and his lane only ! Like the bikers that block the intersection because they are special or something . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 I guess my next questions will be; #1. How does it "crash", especially in extreme situations? #2. How does it handle cold, and I mean the nasty, bone freezing cold we just had this winter? #3. How well would the governing agencies and insurance industy handle the vehicles made from it? #4. How would the typical, mechanically ignorant, consumer respond to a vehicle built from it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) I guess my next questions will be; #1. How does it "crash", especially in extreme situations? Composite materials can be designed into just about any configuration imaginable, and structures can be built that collapse progressively and predictably. The knowledge and techniques exist (and have for some time). It's just the widespread will to use them that's missing. #2. How does it handle cold, and I mean the nasty, bone freezing cold we just had this winter? Composite aircraft routinely live outside in severe environments, just like Corvettes. #3. How well would the governing agencies and insurance industry handle the vehicles made from it? With foot-dragging and hesitation, just like they do with everything new. There was resistance to composite materials in aircraft for decades, but now the entire structure of the Boeing 787 is made of the stuff. #4. How would the typical, mechanically ignorant, consumer respond to a vehicle built from it? Again, with foot-dragging, hesitation and loads of "experts" proclaiming it's unsafe. Just like folks "knew" the world was flat, that the Sun and stars revolved around the Earth, that heavier-than-air flight (the airplane) was impossible...acceptance of a new and better way to see the world and live in it always takes unnecessary time. Market penetration and acceptance won't be instantaneous, any more than it was for the automobile when it was introduced. But you have to start somewhere. My all-composite, stressed-skin design (my avatar) was intended to be a proof-of-concept demonstration that the technology was "safe" and could be "affordable", The McLaren MP4 already uses a carbon composite "tub" monocoque passenger cell. As does the Lambo Aventador... ...and BMW's little i3 From EV WORLD.COM: "BMW i3 Reportedly Will Be Built in Half the Time of Conventional Steel Car In addition to fewer parts, the carbon fiber and aluminum chassis electric car will be 250 to 350 kg (551 to 771 lb) lighter than a comparable electric car. Published: 01-May-2013 The BMW Group (Munich, Germany) revealed more details about its forthcoming all-electric, composites-intensive i3 passenger vehicle in its annual report, issued on March 19. Norbert Reithofer, chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG, says the first preseries BMW i3 rolled off the production line in January. Designed specifically to run with zero emissions in an urban environment, the commuter car will come onto the market by the end of the year. “Several hundred advance orders have already been received for the BMW i3,” adds Reithofer. The BMW i3 sports a carbon fiber-reinforced polymer (CFRP) passenger cell and an aluminum chassis and, says BMW, the vehicle sets new standards in the field of lightweight construction. BMW also reports the production times are reduced significantly by employing unique manufacturing methods and significantly fewer parts, simplifying assembly. The BMW i3 reportedly will require only half the time necessary to produce a conventional automobile." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carbon fiber is only ONE OF MANY composite material choices and fabrication techniques available to automobile designers...if they choose to look forward. The current Cirrus SR22 G3 /5 uses a carbon wing spar, and carbon reinforcements at critical locations. The Lancair Legacy kitplane is mostly carbon fiber... ...but Cirrus has been able to substitute cheaper foam-core fiberglass in their own design for much of the carbon in the Lancair, a result of experience and learning what works well in other composite aircraft. It's only a matter of time before composite materials see widespread use in surface-vehicles, but it's going to be later rather than sooner. Unfortunately. The Lotus Elite had an ALL-COMPOSITE fiberglass-stressed-skin-monocoque structure in 1957. It weighed 1100 pounds and could easily give 35 mpg. The rest of world is just now beginning to catch up. Edited August 24, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slusher Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 What irked me tonight ? Some jerk riding my bumper with his bright on because I was doing the speed limit . Did he not see the people in front of me , like I could run them over. So I just tapped the brake , did not phase him . So I braked slowly so he would not hit me then got over to the right lane moved up in traffic . He must have thought it was his lane and his lane only ! Like the bikers that block the intersection because they are special or something . Seems like everyone is in a hurry these days. I get tailgated all the time. I guess they think we should pull off on the side of the road for them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 That what was what I was thinking also. He was in a big hurry but seemed to pull into the same parking lot I did. I took a right and then a left into the parking lot, I went a dto a different store than he seemed to be going to. It was just weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 The McLaren MP4 already uses a carbon composite "tub" monocoque passenger cell. As does the Lambo Aventador... ...and BMW's little i3 From EV WORLD.COM: "BMW i3 Reportedly Will Be Built in Half the Time of Conventional Steel Car In addition to fewer parts, the carbon fiber and aluminum chassis electric car will be 250 to 350 kg (551 to 771 lb) lighter than a comparable electric car. Published: 01-May-2013 The BMW Group (Munich, Germany) revealed more details about its forthcoming all-electric, composites-intensive i3 passenger vehicle in its annual report, issued on March 19. Norbert Reithofer, chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG, says the first preseries BMW i3 rolled off the production line in January. Designed specifically to run with zero emissions in an urban environment, the commuter car will come onto the market by the end of the year. Several hundred advance orders have already been received for the BMW i3, adds Reithofer. The BMW i3 sports a carbon fiber-reinforced polymer (CFRP) passenger cell and an aluminum chassis and, says BMW, the vehicle sets new standards in the field of lightweight construction. BMW also reports the production times are reduced significantly by employing unique manufacturing methods and significantly fewer parts, simplifying assembly. The BMW i3 reportedly will require only half the time necessary to produce a conventional automobile." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carbon fiber is only ONE OF MANY composite material choices and fabrication techniques available to automobile designers...if they choose to look forward. The current Cirrus SR22 G3 /5 uses a carbon wing spar, and carbon reinforcements at critical locations. The Lancair Legacy kitplane is mostly carbon fiber... ...but Cirrus has been able to substitute cheaper foam-core fiberglass in their own design for much of the carbon in the Lancair, a result of experience and learning what works well in other composite aircraft. It's only a matter of time before composite materials see widespread use in surface-vehicles, but it's going to be later rather than sooner. Unfortunately. The Lotus Elite had an ALL-COMPOSITE fiberglass-stressed-skin-monocoque structure in 1957. It weighed 1100 pounds and could easily give 35 mpg. The rest of world is just now beginning to catch up. Thank you for the response! I'm not that familiar with those kinds,of aircraft (I'm more used to stick and plastic coating or molded foam R/C stuff), and still haven't had a chance to educate myself on how ground vehicles might utilize that technology. Now for my latest irk, I ran out to get dinner for Dad and myself and when I pulled onto the cross street from both the highway and our block, there were people walking down the road, in the dark, wearing dark enough clothes that I saw the skin on their legs (surprisingly light in tone for my neighborhood) before their pants and especially shirts. Now it's bad enough that they were walking down the middle of the street instead of along the curbs, but there are also sidewalks they could have been using too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneckrodder Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 The fact that if i dont get a california hauler re issue soon im going to go nuts...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Gravity is stronger today than it was 40+ years ago. Maybe that is why my pants dont fit anymore, gravity is pulling everything around my middle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 What irked me tonight ? Some jerk riding my bumper with his bright on because I was doing the speed limit . Did he not see the people in front of me , like I could run them over. So I just tapped the brake , did not phase him . So I braked slowly so he would not hit me then got over to the right lane moved up in traffic . He must have thought it was his lane and his lane only ! Like the bikers that block the intersection because they are special or something . Were you in the right or left lane? This happens to me in the right lane all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1930fordpickup Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Were you in the right or left lane? This happens to me in the right lane all the time. I was in the left lane on a four lane main road. The people in the right lane are always turning into and out of the stores ( and there was a spot in the road that was closed ) so you do not ride in that lane for to long. The road was full of cars in front of me , he had no place to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 With all due respect, the left lane IS for faster traffic. If you wish to observe the speed limit, do it in the right lane, and good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatswhatshesaid Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 With all due respect, the left lane IS for faster traffic. If you wish to observe the speed limit, do it in the right lane, and good luck! Where is the like button? I want to hit it about 20 times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclescott58 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 With all due respect, the left lane IS for faster traffic. If you wish to observe the speed limit, do it in the right lane, and good luck! I too agree with this. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Irwin Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 With all due respect, the left lane IS for faster traffic. Not according to the state of Indiana, pass and get back right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Not according to the state of Indiana, pass and get back right. Kinda the same thing there Craig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelo7 Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 (edited) The left lane is for faster traffic only in the Interstates or big Highways. That's the only place you see the sign that says, "Slower Traffic Keep Right". And even there, if you tailgate anybody on the left lane you are wrong. Tailgating is wrong anywhere. Edited August 24, 2014 by angelo7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Irwin Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Kinda the same thing there Craig. No one is to stay in the left lane. (I don't know how they explain 3 or more lanes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 No one is to stay in the left lane. (I don't know how they explain 3 or more lanes) Easy. The left lane is for people who know where they're going and want to get there on time. The center lane is for people who are running ahead of schedule and want to kill some time. And the right lane is for the clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Handley Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 LOL, Harry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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