I wonder if R2 listens ?

[Mike Kucaba]

  On 9/5/2014 at 4:55 PM, High octane said:

Just because a half dozen people complain about a mistake, doesn't mean that Round 2, Revell, or anybody else is going to fix it.

Yeah and it seems like it's the same 6 minus 4 that always complain. I suppose they won't be happy until all kits are "re-tooled" to placate their opiinons.

[martinfan5]

  On 9/5/2014 at 11:22 PM, Tom Geiger said:

It was once said that a company won't change a product where only 1% of their customers would notice. We are a miniscule but vocal minority.

According to Ed, Revell does not pay any attention to what is said online, which is kind of dumbfounding really, he said something to lines of, it doesnt matter what they think or say.

But there is one thing you are forgetting, we our not Revell's customers, the distributors are the customers.

Edited September 5, 2014 by martinfan5

[Tom Geiger]

  On 9/5/2014 at 11:51 PM, martinfan5 said:

According to Ed, Revell does not pay any attention to what is said online, which is kind of dumbfounding really, he said something to lines of, it doesnt matter what they think or say.

Jonathan, I know Ed Sexton cordially for many years of our association through NNL East. He wouldn't say something outright like that. The truth is they read and watch our hobby and what we say and do. I also have met and have had nice conversations with people from the other two companies. Never in our hobby's history have we been in better hands. All of them come from the hobby and truly understand the market. Much better than we do.

What is true is that they learn a lot more looking at show photos and seeing what we all do with their products. It gives them insights into what to include in future kits. They watch the aftermarket and what sells in that small niche. They also understand that those who complain the most build the least. There are a lot of people whose hobby is "posting on message boards".

Also important to note how very small these companies are today and the lack of staff and funding for projects. These are busy people, getting product out the door. They literally don't have time to look at some of the nitty little things we suggest - demand they fix on existing tools.

And we are the most fanatical of model car hobbyists... that is those of us heavily involved in the hobby that post on boards, belong to clubs and attend shows. We represent a very small fraction.. some say 1%, probably smaller, of the overall kit buying public. Our opinions are taken with a grain of salt since we complain about things that the other 99% of the market wouldn't even notice.

[w451973]

  On 9/5/2014 at 2:14 PM, Steven Zimmerman said:

Only way to tell is to actually measure them ..."I think"....or "they look" I understand, but measure them. BTW, almost ALL L-60's manufactured by different companies were different in width and height. I personally believe the new white lettered 'POLYGLAS GT' available in the new AMT wheel sets (L - 60 / f - 60) are GREAT looking, and I hope they sell all they can produce! One thing I have found as I grow older - What we remember vs. what actually WAS, are two different animals. I 'remember' the G - 70 being a HUGE tire.....but it wasn't.....'Z'

Well if we did'nt use "I think" or "they look" when building our models for detailing and correcting them then they would all look like the same person built them. I'm glad you think they are great looking. You are welcome to your opinion but so am I and they are inaccurate. I agree with the memory as we get older but here are the "actual" tire sizes and facts.

http://www.kelseytire.com/pages/preformancetires2.html

[w451973]

  On 9/5/2014 at 2:53 PM, Brett Barrow said:

Personally I like 'em. if the L looks right on the front, use it. Wipe the letter(s) off with lacquer thinner if it bothers you that much.

I'll try to find my calipers and see how these measure up tonight...

Here's the 1:1 sizes if anybody wants to tackle this first:

F60-15 overall diameter 25.9", section width 9.20" (would be 1.036" and 0.368" in 25th scale)

L60-15 overall diameter 27.86", section width 10.50 (1.11" and 0.42")

Here are the actual correct sizes for real Goodyear Polyglass GT tires. http://www.kelseytire.com/pages/preformancetires2.html

Doing the math.........

L-60-15 should be 1.122 tall, section width of .485 and tread width of .360 and

F-60-15 should be 1.050 tall, section width of .369 and tread width of .330. so you can see how much difference there is.

[w451973]

  On 9/5/2014 at 3:21 PM, Steven Zimmerman said:

AMT 'new' F 60, mic. 1.028 dia. , ,section width measured .354....AMT L 60, 1.00 overall dia. and section width, 0.42, pretty close, IMHO !.....'Z'

Please see my above posts.

[Brett Barrow]

I know Ed too, we actually had a nice chat at IPMS Nats about the anti-Revell faction on MCM and all the words they've put into his mouth or statements that have been taken out of context. We got a good laugh over a few of them. He reads this stuff, trust me. He's never going to respond to it personally because that's not his style, but he reads it.

[w451973]

  On 9/5/2014 at 4:16 PM, Brett Barrow said:

So, when we grab the pitchforks and torches and march on Round2's offices demanding they re-tool the Goodyears, they're just gonna laugh at us, right?

So when you inaccurately correct someone with merit it makes you right, huh ? Again, see my above posts with the "actual" correct tire sizes.

[martinfan5]

  On 9/6/2014 at 1:32 AM, Brett Barrow said:

I know Ed too, we actually had a nice chat at IPMS Nats about the anti-Revell faction on MCM and all the words they've put into his mouth or statements that have been taken out of context. We got a good laugh over a few of them. He reads this stuff, trust me. He's never going to respond to it personally because that's not his style, but he reads it.

Reading it, and listening are two different things, "your" friend Frank, told me that he talk to Ed as well, and Ed told him they do not take anything said on forums or Facebook into consideration.

Just posting what I have been told from somewhat reliable sources, and I figured that with Frank being your friend, it might be reliable.

  Quote

Jonathan, I know Ed Sexton cordially for many years of our association through NNL East. He wouldn't say something outright like that. The truth is they read and watch our hobby and what we say and do. I also have met and have had nice conversations with people from the other two companies. Never in our hobby's history have we been in better hands. All of them come from the hobby and truly understand the market. Much better than we do.

Tom, I did not pull what I said out of my rear end, and I never said they dont pay attention to us, I said they do not listen, or take what is said online into consideration, there is a big difference, I have heard from many different sources that I deem very reliable, and I am not just talking about the person I named aboved, that they do not listen to what is said online.

Sure, I agree, we are the 1% of builders, I tend to think its a little bit bigger number than that, but we are a small majority of the builders, so that is understandable, but what about Facebook?, I think a good portion of the builders on FaceBook, that would be a good place to listen, but again, my understanding is they ignore that too.

Revell needs to have a little bit more interaction with the builders, they have a FaceBook page, maybe they should use it more and actually interact with the people.

You mention the shows, again, shows make up a very small number of us, not the majority of builders, so I find it odd that they interact at shows, but dont online, but consider online the smallest portion, which that is just frankly, stupid , pretty much every one uses the internet, forums are dying, FaceBook is where a lot of the builders are at, both us and the casual weekend builder.

Again, I am not just making this up, I have no reason too, and if I am wrong, then I am wrong, so be it, and that means that the people that said this are incorrect, but some of them have a very close relationship with him, so again, who do I believe ?

Edited September 6, 2014 by martinfan5

[Brett Barrow]

  On 9/6/2014 at 1:42 AM, martinfan5 said:

Reading it, and listening are two different things, "your" friend Frank, told me that he talk to Ed as well, and Ed told him they do not take anything said on forums or Facebook into consideration.

Just posting what I have been told from somewhat reliable sources, and I figured that with Frank being your friend, it might be reliable.

I know Frank from the hobby shop I work at, I also know how he's taken things Ed said out of context and told it to other people on this board because I was standing there when it happened (a conversation I had with Ed and Dave Metzner about the Meng F350 at NNL East that the only person within earshot was Frank and I later read members of this board post the line like they were standing there when it happened) so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel. I consider him a friend, sure, but I don't know that he and Ed actually talk back and forth. Anybody can walk up to Ed at a show and "talk" to him. Edited September 6, 2014 by Brett Barrow

[Brett Barrow]

  On 9/6/2014 at 1:34 AM, w451973 said:

So when you inaccurately correct someone with merit it makes you right, huh ? Again, see my above posts with the "actual" correct tire sizes.

So the L60's are spot on in diameter and a scale 1.5 narrow (but correct for "standard" L60 size - and I know that Round 2 has plans to reuse these tires with other brand markings) and the F60'a are a scale half an inch too small in diameter and width? Then you sir, have better eyes than I. I'll gladly trade you one pitchfork and torch (never lit) for any of these tires you currently have in your possession.

[martinfan5]

  On 9/6/2014 at 1:59 AM, Brett Barrow said:

I know Frank from the hobby shop I work at, I also know how he's taken things Ed said out of context and told it to other people on this board because I was standing there when it happened (a conversation I had with Ed and Dave Metzner about the Meng F350 at NNL East that the only person within earshot was Frank and I later read members of this board post the line like they were standing there when it happened) so I wouldn't take what he says as gospel. I consider him a friend, sure, but I don't know that he and Ed actually talk back and forth. Anybody can walk up to Ed at a show and "talk" to him.

We are playing a game of he said, he said, like I said, I have no reason to make this up, and I have gotten the same info from a few other people as well, take that for what its worth.

Its very possible that I took what I heard and put my own spin on it as well, but what I did seem to understand is online to them is not a valuable source of information when it comes to their products, and how people feel about them. Again, I just heard online, does that mean both forums and their FB page?, or just forums, I dont know. I have no doubts that they read this forum and Scale Auto's forum, I think thats a given, but how much of what they read do they care about?, is it important to them whats being said?. Again, what I have heard is its not. I would hope that is not true, I would hope they would care about what is being said on here or other locals online.

[Art Anderson]

As someone mentioned above, we who frequent and post on message boards such as this are but a very small percentage of model car kit buyers and builders (consider that any LHS or other retail store selling model kits moves a lot more kits than just we and others we are acquainted with could ever hope to accumulate); and the same is true as well of those modelers who stop to chat with any representative from any model company at an NNL or other model car event.

In any business producing and marketing consumer products (from real cars down to tiddly-winks) I think it's a safe bet that people in positions of responsibility in those companies simply have to pay attention to what consumers are saying, as if for no other reason, we consumers tend to "vote with our wallets" do we not?

It seems to me that we would all do well to stop and consider that while any model company exec might pick up a gem of an idea from anyone at any time, they ought not to be held "feet to the fire" because they seemingly ignore any one person's comments or suggestions.

Art

[Snake45]

  On 9/5/2014 at 5:05 PM, Monty said:

Agreed. Sometimes that happens when thousands complain, too. AMT & MPC managed to get a somewhat accurate grille & front end on their versions of the '69 Mustang, while Revell's version, with arguably better detail elsewhere, is a snub-nosed beast. Allow me to coin a new term for it: Palmer-lite.

Preach It, Brother Monte!

[Art Anderson]

  On 9/4/2014 at 9:44 PM, Mike Kucaba said:

I just would like in reissues, where there are holes meant to be cut out in a hood,they would stop making the groove to scribe out to open this area up. It seems to always telegraph thru and scars the underhood detail like bracing. I also don;t know of too many modelers who need any help in cutting a hole in a plastic model

Bear in mind that with Round2, virtually every model kit they produce is done in tooling cut decades ago, and is hardened steel. With that, I suspect it's pretty hard to modify that tooling by simple re-grinding, without potentially causing other problems--and to avoid that would mean tooling up a new section of the once-acceptable but now no longer desired mold, cutting away the old part to insert a new block of steel--again not necessarily a simple process.

Reissued older kits (which is essentially what Round 2 is doing right now) almost never are produced in production runs anywhere near as large as when a particular kit was first introduced (a newly tooled model car kit might see, say, a production run of 100,000 to 120,000 kits). A reissue of a model kit that's not seen the light of day as a new release in 40-50 years may well only see a short run of perhaps 10,000 or so. If making and installing a new tooling insert into an old tool were to cost say, $10-grand, that will add a dollar to the cost of the model kit FOB the factory dock, which could well translate to another dollar and a half by the time the model kit reaches a store's shelf. At some point in a discussion behind closed doors, someone will (and rightly so) ask the simple question: "If we make this change to this old tooling, how many more kits will we sell?" If (as probably is often the case) the answer is either "I don't know." that will almost assuredly end the discussion, If whomever proposed the idea to begin with throws out a number for the discussion, he/she will surely be asked to substantiate such a figure, the result often being the end of the discussion with a negative answer from upper management.

There are some who read and post on this (and other model car message boards) who have been a part of such product meetings (I myself spent almost 3 years working for Playing Mantis, in product development for Johnny Lightning diecast model cars just before PM was sold to RC2) and those are questions that are regularly asked by management people whose job it is to move the entire company forward, keep the balance sheet in the black. Even sales and marketing gets into those discussions, as they simply have to know what price-point any given model kit can be sold at (even the mass merchandisers, hobby wholesalers and any savvy hobby retailer get considered, as they are just as price-sensitive as you and I are!).

So, any modification to a model kit tool simply has to "pass muster", that is be something that is clearly recognizable as a difference or upgrade to an older (in the case of the kind of thing mentioned in the post which started this thread) kit tool, if it is to actually get done. Again, the key phrase almost always will be: "If we make this change, invest the dollars, how many more units will we sell because we did?" And that is a very tough question to have posed.

Art

[Mike Kucaba]

I should have mentioned that the kit I specifically was thinking about was tooled in the late 88-90's (AMT's 1966 Chevy II.)

This always frustrates me as I had laid down a near perfect paint in the color of my 1:1 Chevy II with lacquer and after a couple days of drying,there was the image of the that score line. Frustrating to say the least. At this point in model car manufacturing, I would have thought that the model companies knew there customer base at that time.

FWIW my other statement still stands. I don't know of any modeler that doesn't know how to put a hole anywhere in a plastic model.

In a batch of parts/built-ups I had a 1964 Ford Falcon that someone thought it would b cool to have an engine in the rear and cut a gaping hole in the trunk! With a dull knife

[Art Anderson]

  On 9/6/2014 at 6:23 PM, Mike Kucaba said:

I should have mentioned that the kit I specifically was thinking about was tooled in the late 88-90's (AMT's 1966 Chevy II.)

This always frustrates me as I had laid down a near perfect paint in the color of my 1:1 Chevy II with lacquer and after a couple days of drying,there was the image of the that score line. Frustrating to say the least. At this point in model car manufacturing, I would have thought that the model companies knew there customer base at that time.

FWIW my other statement still stands. I don't know of any modeler that doesn't know how to put a hole anywhere in a plastic model.

In a batch of parts/built-ups I had a 1964 Ford Falcon that someone thought it would b cool to have an engine in the rear and cut a gaping hole in the trunk! With a dull knife

As a hobby retailer when that kit came out, in 1987, there apparently was still some old-school thinking in Dyersville, and quite possibly some fairly tight cost considerations as well: Where today, someone such as Moebius or Revell more than likely would not cut corners with such as thinned channels on the underside of a hood in order to make it "easy" for someone to cut out a hole for an injector scoop or a blower (both companies are pretty much beyond that with new tooling--in a case such as this "Mold two hoods".

In the 80's though, was still the "transition" of this hobby from being one primarily populated with young kids to that which we have today, pretty much an adult hobby. Even as late as the first RCHTA trade shows in Chicago, I was pretty much turned off by AMT/Ertl reps a their booth who seemed to be of the genre "By Cracky! How the heck are ya? Come see the new kits guarranteed to get the kids into your shop for the neatest model kits from AMT/Ertl! (and yes, I encountered one of those at RCHTA as late as 1991!)

That said, it's very possible to eliminate (or minimize to near invisibility) the "ghosting through" of such as the "groove" on the underside of that hood. None of the techniques I've seen posted on forums for as long as online forums have existed, nor either of the procedures I have used to counteract this problem are at all complicated.

Art

Edited September 6, 2014 by Art Anderson

[w451973]

  On 9/6/2014 at 2:11 AM, Brett Barrow said:

So the L60's are spot on in diameter and a scale 1.5 narrow (but correct for "standard" L60 size - and I know that Round 2 has plans to reuse these tires with other brand markings) and the F60'a are a scale half an inch too small in diameter and width? Then you sir, have better eyes than I. I'll gladly trade you one pitchfork and torch (never lit) for any of these tires you currently have in your possession.

Well since you seem to have a problem with me why don't we take this to pm's and you can really speak your mind there ? While we are at it you should get your eyes checked and learn some math. According to my dial calipers the tires are off. I can't speak for the new ones as I have'nt bought any yet. All I can speak for are the 40 year old F-60's and 20 year old L-60's. Why you are blowing it out of proportion with thie pitch fork nonsense I'll never know but thats your problem.

All I've done was ask a simple question, if R2 listens and then state my concerns about the old tires since they are tooling up new kits. I did not know I was stepping over some line and asking too much nor did I want to start anything with anybody. This is my first post ever on here saying anything about my dissapointment with a kit or part. I appreciate that R2 is reissuing some great stuff and doing some new things. I am grateful they are making the new white lettered tires. I just thought in this day and age of more detailed and accurate kits it would be nice to have some more accurate tires. I did'nt mean to step on anyones toes.

[Brett Barrow]

I don't have a problem with you, I was just trying to inject a little humor into the conversation. That's my style. Sometimes I forget this model car thing is serious business.

Using your Goodyear 1:1 measurements and Steven's AMT measurements-

L60's - should be 1.12" dia and .485" wide. They measure 1.12" dia and .420" wide, a difference of .065", or 1.625" in real life. (as I noted before, Goodyear's L60 was wider than the "standard" L-60. AMT will be using these tires with other brand markings in the future. I know this because one of them was my idea .)

F60's should be 1.050 and .369" wide. They measure 1.028" and .354, a difference of .022" and .015", .55" and .375" in real life.

If you honestly think this discrepancy is enough to warrant Round2 spending thousands of dollars to retool them, then I'll gladly send an email to AMT brand manager John Greczula on your behalf. I'm sure he'll read it.

[Ace-Garageguy]

This one listens...

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Edited September 6, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy

[unclescott58]

I'm simply amazed by this tread. This is as bad as some of the rivet counters over on the airplane blogs. Unbeleivable! So, rather than finding out how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. How many can dance in the space of the scale difference in AMT's tires?

Scott

Time for Superman on MeTV.

Edited September 6, 2014 by unclescott58

[Brett Barrow]

  On 9/6/2014 at 9:42 PM, plowboy said:

So, you're complaining about the tires that AMT made twenty and forty years ago? Maybe if you had bought an AMT kit or tires made in the current century, you wouldn't be so disappointed.

SAY WHAT!?!?!? It's the OLD tires he's been talking about this whole time?!?!? ->

[Brett Barrow]

  On 9/6/2014 at 10:12 PM, plowboy said:

That's what I gathered. I thought he was talking about the NEW tires too. You got any forty year old F-60s or twenty year old L-60s to measure?

Nope. I'm about ready to measure some twenty year old scotch after this thread.

[unclescott58]

  On 9/6/2014 at 10:26 PM, Brett Barrow said:

Nope. I'm about ready to measure some twenty year old scotch after this thread.

I haven't had a drink in over 35 years. I may have to join you.

Scott

[Snake45]

  On 9/7/2014 at 1:13 AM, unclescott58 said:

I haven't had a drink in over 35 years.

Scott

I'm coming up on 30 years in a couple weeks.