06daytona Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Afx suggestions are good. I would like to add another suggestion. The poster needs to indicate if they want constructive criticism. If I see something that should be fixed or taken into consideration for future builds I want to know if the person is receptive to comments. Excellent suggestion. This way, there should be no noses out-of-joint because someone offered some well-intentioned criticism/advice to a poster who wasn't looking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Dave Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I have been made to feel very welcome here. I am a brand new builder and eager to learn. If my 64 years have taught me anything is that you need honest feedback and critique to improve on anything. This is especially true when trying to learn something new. So I will be asking for critical feedback when I finish my first kit in the hope that I can use that input to improve kit 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000-cvpi Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I too like it here on this forum, and the quality and talent of some of the members here is awesome, while some not so. I myself build in my OWN "comfort level" and I'm happy with the results. I do have FUN, and I believe that is very important in a hobby. I agree with the above quote. I build to the best of my abilities and I know that for now the important thing for me is to have fun building when I have time to do it. When my kids are older, I will start to really get serious with attempting to raise my skill level. On a related note, in my experience at shows, forums and talking at hobby shops, model builders are a thin skinned group as a whole. Look at this forum, and this post. Almost all grown men that for some can't handle constructive criticism even when it is obvious that they need it. I'm not perfect, my builds certainly aren't, and when I have posted a build I openly ask for advice, criticism or comments. I know that I have lots of areas that I need considerable improvement. I once saw a 60 year old man whine like a girl that he didn't win a lhs model contest because his glue bomb, brush painted truck was judged accurately. Just my $.02, and take it with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxer Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) I've been hooked on this forum since the first time here and have looked virtually every day and usually more than once a day .. for almost 6 years. There are always a few pages of new posts every time ... this in itself say something about the equality and interest generated here. No other forum I've been to has held my attention longer than a week or less. THAT'S the reason I'm here. Sure there are flareups by some inconsiderate, or even a misunderstood person, but that's life on the internet. I'm an average modeler but always will try something new if it's needed for a specific build, not just to add when not called for. I'm not near as prolific as many here but just enjoy building model cars. I feel very relaxed posting virtually all my works-in-progress because each has a special meaning to me personally (mostly cars I've owned) but I feel there are always parts of the build that others might get something from ... a different bodywork method or a cheap use of a bobby pin in a build. Comments I get are always helpful and encouraging from all levels of builders here ... this is one reason I'm surprised that some feel there is an elitist attitude here .. I find just the opposite. Edited November 7, 2014 by Foxer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Personally, and as has already been said, I feel if you post in a public forum, you should be prepared for any and all comments and criticism, good or bad and constructive or not. If your skin is that thin or you just simply can't understand that a constructive critical comment is meant to HELP YOU IMPROVE YOUR SKILLS AND IS NOT BASHING YOUR WORK, then the option is simple, JUST DON'T POST!!! That is one big reason I don't check out much but the general information topics in the Truck section, I got sick and tired of trying to help builders with constructive comments and then either getting bashed by the mob publicly in the forum or nasty PMs telling me my help was not wanted, so I just don't bother with anything in any workbench or under glass thread unless it is MY thread! Constructive criticism is a good thing, but some folks don't seem to grasp the fact that it can and should be delivered in a "courteous" manner (the quote is from the rules for the forum.) And, some people don't want to have "their" problems pointed out in public. Is that wrong? A good rule of thumb (for those who would post replies to someone else's work: Why not think of just what sort of response would YOU prefer? Art I fully agree with Art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 And, some people don't want to have "their" problems pointed out in public. Is that wrong? If a person doesn't want any problems pointed out or commented on, that person shouldn't post pictures of his work on a public forum. It's just that simple. It's not fair that a person should post pictures, then expect all the other members to not point out anything they see or limit them to only positive comments. It's a form of tacit censorship, it goes against the whole point of what a public forum is, and it won't fly here. When you post your work here, every other member has the right to comment on it, good or bad. As long as the comments are in regards to the model, not the person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Hand Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Seems the same usual suspects, are the ones with the strongest opinions/views on this thread title. And from my view point its also seems in my opinion I was some what right with a comment I made else where. Edited November 7, 2014 by Cool Hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Harry, how about if the person who posts just ASKS for comments, critiques, etc, instead of just assuming that his or her build might just be trashed in public? It happens, and it's not right. Picture being at a contest and hearing one modeler pointing at another modeler's build as he or she yammers away about the paint or chrome or engine details or whatever. OUT LOUD, FOR ALL TO HEAR. Yeah, that's mature and desired. Uh-huh. You didn't address the fact that some people don't want their shortcomings pointed out in public in a very adult manner. Go back thru the posts regarding the Charger and you'll see how this whole thing started. And, again, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, AS LONG AS IT IS PRESENTED IN A COURTEOUS MANNER. You seem to be missing that point. I expect it and have offered it myself, sometimes in a PM. Go back thru the posts regarding the Charger and you'll see what I mean. Edited November 7, 2014 by johnbuzzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthehobbyguy Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 For me I am only interested in helping people that want to be helped. Doesn't mean I will offer false praise. I will make a comment on some aspect I like if possible. To me the rest is believing in an idyllic world. The people that don't want negative feedback are not going to see that everybody has the right to comment positively or negatively to their work. In their mind thier work is perfect and needs no improvement. Sometimes the way things actually work is totally different from reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 John... on a public forum, the public (the members) have the right to comment. It's understood that if you post pictures of your work, your work is open to comment. If you don't want members to comment, don't post your work. Like I said, it's inherently unfair for one member to post their work on a public forum and then insist that all other members are only allowed to make positive comments. That's just not how a forum works. Criticism and critique is not only a valid part of how a forum works, it's an inherent part of how a forum works. As long as the comments are directed at the model and aren't personal, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) You just don't get it, Harry. Not at all. We attended a public forum for the candidates a few weeks ago. Two had their turns with opening statements, answering questions, etc. The challenger lead his closing remarks, regarding the incumbent's past performance, with: "...to put it in legal terms, it just sux." I don't know about you , but that is no way to conduct oneself with courtesy in a public forum. That person could have used different terminology, rephrased it or however you want to put it, and gotten the same point to the public without the spectacle, and without coming across as a boorish lout. He lost. "...be courteous to others"- that's from Gregg's rules regarding this forum (italics mine) Now, go back and read the posts about the Charger again; maybe you'll see what I mean. Edited November 7, 2014 by johnbuzzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunkypeanutbutter Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I don't think you get it. There's a difference between constructive criticism and "trashing," as you put it. Say somebody makes a Bel Air and paints the chrome trim on. Guy is a new modeler and gets some paint outside the lines. You could say one of these two things: Constructive: "Try putting masking tape around the trim when you paint it. I find that it helps me get better results." Trashing: "Your trim sucks!" Everybody here has a right to be respected as long as they themselves are respectful. Trashing somebody's build is never respectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I don't think you get it. There's a difference between constructive criticism and "trashing," as you put it. Say somebody makes a Bel Air and paints the chrome trim on. Guy is a new modeler and gets some paint outside the lines. You could say one of these two things: Constructive: "Try putting masking tape around the trim when you paint it. I find that it helps me get better results." Trashing: "Your trim sucks!" Everybody here has a right to be respected as long as they themselves are respectful. Trashing somebody's build is never respectful. Bingo. You got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) It's a curious thing, but some people actually seem to look at their own less-than-stellar work and think it's good, even exceptional. I don't know how it's possible to have a functioning brain (functioning well enough to get you through the daily grind, anyway) and be totally blind when it comes to objectively judging something you've built or repaired. I encounter this fascinating phenomenon in all aspects of life, from fabricators and welders to carpenters and painters, technical writers, programmers and product designers, architects and cooks, ad infinitum. I think it's mostly the folks who, for whatever reason, aren't capable of looking at their own work and realizing it could stand improvement, are the ones who cry "foul" at the first signs of criticism...even well-intentioned constructive and helpful criticism. I know my OWN work can certainly stand improvement in multiple areas, and I welcome input from people who do things better than I do. The willingness of people on this forum to share tips, techniques, and knowledge, is for the most part, pretty impressive. And seeing some of the truly exceptional work presented here is, to me, a source of constant inspiration to raise my own standards, to get more fluent with more materials and techniques, and to build better models as a result. As Harry and others have already said, it's unrealistic to put your work up on a public forum and to expect only attaboys...but that does seem to be what you get on some of the boards and FB pages. But no one can control what anyone else really thinks or feels, and people will continue to post not-great work, expecting praise. The only thing each of us can control is how WE OURSELVES approach making comments on posts. Try to be adult, be kind, genuinely helpful and constructive...or don't say anything at all. But most of all, think about, as Art reminded us, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE TREATED concerning your own areas of possible improvement. PS. For some insight into how people become praise-junkies, here's an interesting article on child development, called Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job!" http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm Edited November 7, 2014 by Ace-Garageguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 No, I think you are the one that just doesn't get it, John! As Harry has stated numerous times, THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, AND IF YOU DON'T (OR ARE TOO THIN SKINNED TO ACCEPT) ANYTHING BUT PRAISE, DON'T POST PUBLICLY!! I don't know (and frankly don't care) what this Charger you keep referring to has to do with the discussion, but it just seems to me, especially since Harry has stated the same thing at least 3 times just this morning, is just not sinking in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure why some of you think that I'm advising that only "attaboys" be posted. How many times have I referred to "constructive criticism" in my previous posts? From Businessdictionary.com: A recommended set of instructions that aims to collaboratively improve the overall quality of a product or service. Often containing helpful and specific suggestions for positive change, From dictionary.com: Constructive criticism: noun criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions From Collins English dictionary: constructive (kənˈstrʌktɪv ) Definitions adjective serving to build or improve; positive ⇒ constructive criticism And, I referred to being "courteous" to other modelers. "Attaboys"? No, not hardly. Respect and dignity for others (including one's self; re, the politician to whom I referred) : Yes. Edited November 7, 2014 by johnbuzzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) No, I think you are the one that just doesn't get it, John! As Harry has stated numerous times, THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM, AND IF YOU DON'T (OR ARE TOO THIN SKINNED TO ACCEPT) ANYTHING BUT PRAISE, DON'T POST PUBLICLY!! I don't know (and frankly don't care) what this Charger you keep referring to has to do with the discussion, but it just seems to me, especially since Harry has stated the same thing at least 3 times just this morning, is just not sinking in! Perhaps, you should check out the post to which I refer. And, if you "don't care", why are you reading these posts in the first place? "Outstanding? Seriously? You don't see a problem with how the disc-brakes are sitting outside of the wheels instead of within them? & the exhaust pipes just floating underneath the chassis?": In one member's post, to another, about a third person's model. Edited November 7, 2014 by johnbuzzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blunc Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 "What we have here is FAILURE to communicate." Regardless of what was posted about the Charger, I doubt Harry will vary much from his response regarding posting and photos. If someone responds negatively about a build then that is an opinion and is worth exactly what you paid for it...which means it's worth exactly nothing. Everyone that reads these forums will not always see things the same way as everyone else and will NOT process what was typed in the same manner and absolutely will NOT always know what is considered to be courteous (and may be posting while drunk). Rather than getting "butt-hurt" about a comment maybe a response like this could be crafted... " I see that you think my chrome trim sux, can you tell me in what way it sux and how I might improve on my next build?" (or you can get all whiney and after a while people will quit commenting on your posts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthehobbyguy Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The post is question was a perfect example of why this forum has a perceived reputation for being elitist as indicted by this thread title. The behavior was not acceptable and should not be found acceptable by justifying it with this is a public forum. It also does not follow with the policy stated at the top of most of the forums of making comments and criticisms only when asked. It also doesn't fit the implied policy of being civil to other members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 "What we have here is FAILURE to communicate." Regardless of what was posted about the Charger, I doubt Harry will vary much from his response regarding posting and photos. If someone responds negatively about a build then that is an opinion and is worth exactly what you paid for it...which means it's worth exactly nothing. Everyone that reads these forums will not always see things the same way as everyone else and will NOT process what was typed in the same manner and absolutely will NOT always know what is considered to be courteous (and may be posting while drunk). Rather than getting "butt-hurt" about a comment maybe a response like this could be crafted... " I see that you think my chrome trim sux, can you tell me in what way it sux and how I might improve on my next build?" (or you can get all whiney and after a while people will quit commenting on your posts) That sounds good and makes sense. I'll go along with that, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The post is question was a perfect example of why this forum has a perceived reputation for being elitist as indicted by this thread title. The behavior was not acceptable and should not be found acceptable by justifying it with this is a public forum. It also does not follow with the policy stated at the top of most of the forums of making comments and criticisms only when asked. It also doesn't fit the implied policy of being civil to other members. From the Board Rules and Guidelines: 2) Personal attacks will not be tolerated. We believe that encouraging and/or constructive criticism can help, but putting a person down does not accomplish anything for the community. Also, flaming, name calling, and off-color cartoons, images, or content are NOT permitted. (Italics mine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 From the Board Rules and Guidelines: 2) Personal attacks will not be tolerated. We believe that encouraging and/or constructive criticism can help, but putting a person down does not accomplish anything for the community. Also, flaming, name calling, and off-color cartoons, images, or content are NOT permitted. (Italics mine) That's what I've always said. Criticism/comments about the model are fine, personal slams are not. Putting a person down doesn't accomplish anything, as the rule says. John, I think you and I agree more than you realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuzzed Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Uh... if you say so, I'll agree with that. Besides, I'm getting a headache from the back-and-forth and switching screens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobthehobbyguy Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Top of workbench forum paraphrased Keep your comments, crticisms and sarcasms unless the poster has requested them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace-Garageguy Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Top of workbench forum paraphrased Keep your comments, crticisms and sarcasms unless the poster has requested them. I think in the future, I'll specifically request sarcastic responses. Sounds like fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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