MCM Forum - expert work expected?

[Jantrix]

This has popped up in two threads in the last two days that I'm involved in, and when I try to get my club members involved here, they wrinkle their nose and say things like "No, they are all elite/expert/pro/stuck up jerk builders who have ignored or bashed my work in the past". Or people seem to think that their work is not up to snuff for this forum. We've got a bad rep guys.

Don't get me wrong we have a lot of fantastic builders here, but how has this reputation gotten so bad?

I don't want to turn this into thread #1,462 on the subject of critique, but is it really that bad here?

And how can we fix it? I'd really like to hear from some of the new guys on this.

Or do we even care about the reputation?

[Ramfins59]

Wow. I wouldn't have guessed we had such a bad rep here.

Like you said Rob, it could have to do with negative comments and/or critiques that some members post, but, isn't that to be expected on a public Forum like this.

As far as "ignoring" posts, maybe it's a case of "If you can't say anything good, then don't say anything."

Personally, I like it here and really don't care what or how other people feel about it. As you say though, it would be interesting to hear how most of the "newbies" feel about it.

[freakshow12]

I have had a good experience here so far. I look at pretty much every build and I comment on many. Sometimes if the build is not my cup of tea I will just carry on to the next one. Biggest thing that even I myself have to realize is the diverse group we have. We have a wide range of abilities, budgets and ages here. Some guys don't have huge stockpiles to pull from or endless money for parts or products in which to create from. I notice some builders do improve on each build and some stay the same. Some builders ask for advice and some don't, that's where I'm careful to give it or keep it to myself. I have seen simple things like someone suggesting a wash on a grille or similar get all blown up. My thought is if you put it up here be prepared for the good and bad from it. I think the core group here is pretty level headed

[Aaronw]

There are some loud mouths, but for the most part I get the feeling people don't post out of a I'm my own worst critic kind of thing "my models are not good enough". I see a lot of people make that comment when asked why they don't post pics of their models.

Granted the crickets that accompany some postings can be pretty loud, and that is common if it is an average model outside of a fairly narrow genre (muscle, rods or racing). I don't think it is a secret a good number of the vocal posters are old guys with a narrow set of interests.

There was a time that criticism could be rather harsh, but I haven't seen much of that in the past few years. If anything it has gone a little softball, even losing much constructive comment.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Aaronw

[Harry P.]

There was a time that criticism could be rather harsh, but I haven't seen much of that in the past few years. If anything it has gone a little softball, even losing much constructive comment.

And then there those that say exactly the opposite, that too many guys post too many harsh criticisms. Which proves the fact that you can't please everyone no matter what you do. So what we try to do here is be the best model car forum, and let others decide for themselves whether they want to be a part of it or not. We can't force anyone to have any particular opinion of us... everyone is going to form their own opinion. The problem happens when people go around badmouthing this place because they have a personal axe to grind with someone here, or they've gotten criticisms of their models. In other words, it's not an accurate judgement of this forum as a whole.

Some guys who are not very good builders may feel like this forum is too hard on others, or that we don't like models that don't pass some sort of unwritten test. That's BS. We welcome all builders at all skill levels... but it's a two-way street: We welcome everyone, regardless of talent or skill level, to post their work here. But you have to remember that by posting your work here, it's only fair to allow the other members to comment on that work. You can't post your work here and then expect to have some sort of gag order enforced where we only allow attaboys and "nice build, dude" comments. Not going to happen. This is an open forum, opinion-wise.

If you want only pats on the back, maybe this isn't the forum for you. But if you value other people's input and suggestions and knowledge, and you want to grow and learn and get better as a modeler, then this is the place to be.

[Art Anderson]

A good rule of thumb (for those who would post replies to someone else's work: Why not think of just what sort of response would YOU prefer?

Art

[Gothicz House Of Kustomz]

First off, I get payed almost 500.00 for my builds, and I post them, when I do them, because I want to hear other peoples ideas, good, bad, whatever, I could never understand why, people get so butt hurt, when someone says something bad???? I see great work here, and I see whopping lot of potential builders here, what I don't see is HONESTY, yeah I have seen carp here too, I see no reason to bag on someone about their build, I would however like to give incouragement, or let the builder know about a spot, and how to go about fixing it, or adding to it, what ever, but I am mass gun shy, about doing something like that, (once bitten twice shy), I want people to be brutal, honest, on my posts, good or bad, I have been doing my style for over 35 years, I will never stop building just because someone says, the roof line is lower on the left, and NO! I'm not a rivet counter, I hate those kinda builders, but hey we all hate something, I post because, I WANT TO HEAR FROM ALL BUILDERS, good, bad, or otherwize, I mighta went off track here, if so I'm sorry..

Gothic

PS, might need to cut back on my caffein intake just a LITTLE!!!!!!

Edited November 4, 2014 by Gothicz House Of Kustomz

[johnbuzzed]

I agree with Art. I also feel that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything. I do see a lotta stuff here about which I say nothing. Most times, that just means that I don't have enough time to check out every build and offer my compliments. Sometimes, not. If I do see something that I feel might be enhanced by something like a wash, a particular paint detail or something like that ("constructive criticism"), I'll either post my thoughts after complimenting the model or, depending on how the posts are trending, send them in a PM. There are not a lot of people here who bash other builders, but, those who do tend to stand out from the crowd. I might not have a lot of builds or in-progress stuff in the forums, and my building pace is slowing down, but I do wonder if some members who are so quick to criticize ever build at all.

But that kind of stuff won't chase me away. If I get tired of any one particular member for whatever reason, I'll block their posts. It's easy to do and it's an option that all of us have.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I would hazard to guess that in part, an opinion among some builders that there's "expert work expected" here has something to do with the currently fashionable idea in schools and child rearing that every effort, no matter how poorly executed, is worth the same grade or number of attaboys as even the best of the best of the best.

This attitude fosters mediocrity in everything, and denigrates the inherent goodness of striving for excellence.

All efforts ARE NOT equal, but every human is entitled to an equal measure of respect when being addressed. Criticisms of a builder's WORK should be focused on constructive suggestions as to what the builder can do to improve his skills, and I believe that most of the comments made here are either positively-reinforcing attaboys or are made in the spirit of helping the builder to recognize how he can become a better modeler...if he wants to.

A builder who shows half-assed work and expects to have heaps of praise poured on grainy paint and poor fit...well, he's not motivated by doing what he does WELL, and simply wants something unearned, something for nothing, that something being unconditional praise. We're not 2 or 5 or 7 year olds here, and no one should come here expecting to be treated as such.

[High octane]

I too like it here on this forum, and the quality and talent of some of the members here is awesome, while some not so. I myself build in my OWN "comfort level" and I'm happy with the results. I do have FUN, and I believe that is very important in a hobby.

[Casey]

This has popped up in two threads in the last two days that I'm involved in, and when I try to get my club members involved here, they wrinkle their nose and say things like "No, they are all elite/expert/pro/stuck up jerk builders who have ignored or bashed my work in the past". Or people seem to think that their work is not up to snuff for this forum. We've got a bad rep guys.

I think you need some new club members/friends if they called you all those names by default. No online forum is the perfect place for everyone, so if this one isn't right for them, there are other online forums for discussing scale models.

No group of individual members speaks nor represents the MCM forum as a whole, and we have a wide enough range of experience, skill, and personalities here that everything seems to flow fairly evenly, but we do have some occasional big waves. Doesn't make it good nor bad, just typical of what happens when large groups of people comes together to discuss a common interest.

[Jantrix]

I agree with Art. I also feel that if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything.

I gotta disagree here. From experience I can tell you that there is nothing worse when posting your work, than to have no replies. It is quite depressing.

In my opinion, if you have nothing nice to say, take a chance on a polite critique. At least then the builder doesn't feel ignored or beneath the notice of the better builders. That is what might be fostering this elitist reputation.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Jantrix

[tubbs]

I would hazard to guess that in part, an opinion among some builders that there's "expert work expected" here has something to do with the currently fashionable idea in schools and child rearing that every effort, no matter how poorly executed, is worth the same grade or number of attaboys as even the best of the best of the best.

This attitude fosters mediocrity in everything, and denigrates the inherent goodness of striving for excellence.

All efforts ARE NOT equal, but every human is entitled to an equal measure of respect when being addressed. Criticisms of a builder's WORK should be focused on constructive suggestions as to what the builder can do to improve his skills, and I believe that most of the comments made here are either positively-reinforcing attaboys or are made in the spirit of helping the builder to recognize how he can become a better modeler...if he wants to.

A builder who shows half-assed work and expects to have heaps of praise poured on grainy paint and poor fit...well, he's not motivated by doing what he does WELL, and simply wants something unearned, something for nothing, that something being unconditional praise. We're not 2 or 5 or 7 year olds here, and no one should come here expecting to be treated as such.

beautiful.... just beautiful. well said. a lot has to do with the media we are dealing with too, people can take printed words very differently. I feel that if you post something here, expect some bad critism, not every model is perfect like mine.... kidding!! bashing something because you don't like it is one thing, giving constructive ideas are another.

[cobraman]

I will admit I like getting good comments on my builds but truthfully what do you really get from them other than a good feeling ? I think I get more out of the comments that point out a defect in my building and I have plenty. Things like Harry mentioning mirrors. Makes me think "I better put some mirrors on this thing". I think honest criticism that points out how to improve or suggest a better way moves you forward. I for one welcome it. I have visited other model forums and this is the best by far in my opinion. You want to see some nasty comments and mean opinionated people, go on some of the gun forums. Oh boy ! I hardly spend any time on those anymore.

[jefropas]

I'm pretty new, and I don't think that way at all. I'm glad I found this place, honestly. I value the opinions here, as well as the wealth of knowledge. Sure, like every forum, there will ALWAYS be dissenters on any subject, but until they outweigh everyone else, the forum thrives, and this place thrives! If it ain't broke....

Jeff

[tubbs]

I would hazard to guess that in part, an opinion among some builders that there's "expert work expected" here has something to do with the currently fashionable idea in schools and child rearing that every effort, no matter how poorly executed, is worth the same grade or number of attaboys as even the best of the best of the best.

This attitude fosters mediocrity in everything, and denigrates the inherent goodness of striving for excellence.

All efforts ARE NOT equal, but every human is entitled to an equal measure of respect when being addressed. Criticisms of a builder's WORK should be focused on constructive suggestions as to what the builder can do to improve his skills, and I believe that most of the comments made here are either positively-reinforcing attaboys or are made in the spirit of helping the builder to recognize how he can become a better modeler...if he wants to.

A builder who shows half-assed work and expects to have heaps of praise poured on grainy paint and poor fit...well, he's not motivated by doing what he does WELL, and simply wants something unearned, something for nothing, that something being unconditional praise. We're not 2 or 5 or 7 year olds here, and no one should come here expecting to be treated as such.

beautiful!! well said. I think that the media we are dealing with has a lot to do with it also. people can take written words very differently. if something is wrong with the build, the person who posted it should not get mad if someone corrects him. if you totally bash something because you don't like it, that's one thing, but if you give constructive ideas to help someone, they shouldn't take it negatively. not everyone builds a perfect model like me..... KIDDING!!

[johnbuzzed]

I gotta disagree here. From experience I can tell you that there is nothing worse when posting your work, that to have no replies. It is quite depressing.

In my opinion, if you have nothing nice to say, take a chance on a polite critique. At least then the builder doesn't feel ignored or beneath the notice of the better builders. That is what might be fostering this elitist reputation.

I'll go along with you there. But the key word in your post is "polite"- that fits in with the "be courteous" in Gregg's rules. I think this all started with a not-at-all-courteous critique ("Outstanding- seriously? You don't see a problem...") of another modeler's work; that person ( I won't mention that his name is Cliff) who offered said critique seems to have vanished. Kinda like Kevin Harvick, but I digress. Keep in mind that the comment in quotes was not even offered to the builder of the model in question, but to another modeler who commented on the model. The person who offered that criticism should have, could have and had no reason NOT TO offer it to the builder in a constructive manner. Quite possibly, all this would have been avoided

Edited November 4, 2014 by johnbuzzed

[Aaronw]

All efforts ARE NOT equal, but every human is entitled to an equal measure of respect when being addressed. Criticisms of a builder's WORK should be focused on constructive suggestions as to what the builder can do to improve his skills, and I believe that most of the comments made here are either positively-reinforcing attaboys or are made in the spirit of helping the builder to recognize how he can become a better modeler...if he wants to.

Agreed, but at the same time, it is no fun to get a laundry list of issues. Pick one and work on that. An obviously inexperienced builder is far more likely to respond to a post pointing out a way to do BMF better, or how to improve a paint job, or how to get the wheels straight, or focusing on removing seams.

Any one of those is a perfectly valid comment and appropriately worded, helpful (tip on how to get better great, what a terrible paint job not so much), but all of those at once can be crushing.

Also target the comments to the level of the builder, if it is a factory stock build with very good technique, but the color is wrong for a car of that year, perfectly valid comment. If the paint job is badly executed, then the choice of color is the least of their worries and just piling on.

Last, is there really nothing nice to add, maybe even just the choice of color, or maybe the concept even if poorly executed?

While I have seen (mostly in the past) some comments that I think were just mean, most that have resulted in hurt feelings were just tactless, but not malicious.

[Jantrix]

I'll go along with you there. But the key word in your post is "polite"- that fits in with the "be courteous" in Gregg's rules. I think this all started with a not-at-all-courteous critique ("Outstanding- seriously? You don't see a problem...") of another modeler's work; that person who offered said critique seems to have vanished. Kinda like Kevin Harvick, but I digress. Keep in mind that the comment in quotes was not even offered to the builder of the model in question, but to another modeler who commented on the model. The person who offered that criticism should have, could have and had no reason NOT TO offer it to the builder in a constructive manner. Quite possibly, all this would have been avoided

Well it sure brought it too mind, but my online club members have been upset at this place for quite a while. And I have heard poor opinions of this forum from others at contests and shows in my area.

[johnbuzzed]

I goofed; the quote should be: "Outstanding? Seriously?", etc. Mea culpa..

[Ace-Garageguy]

... my online club members have been upset at this place for quite a while. And I have heard poor opinions of this forum from others at contests and shows in my area.

... when I try to get my club members involved here, they wrinkle their nose and say things like "No, they are all elite/expert/pro/stuck up jerk builders who have ignored or bashed my work in the past". Or people seem to think that their work is not up to snuff for this forum...

So, that's the problem...one of perception, valid or not.

Does being a "good" builder automatically make one an "elite, stuck-up jerk" ? Well, in some peoples' minds, being good at something IS a reason to "hate on them" (not a phrase I'd normally use, but appropriate I think).

And don't forget, unfortunately, people often parrot the opinions of others without any actual experience or interaction to back it up.

There are also two entirely different ways to look at a model. One is the objective technical skill of the modeler...paint gloss, realistic appearance achieved by weathering, part fit, nice clean foil work, scale-correct details, etc. These things are valid targets for "constructive criticism" if they're poorly done. The other is more subjective...design and proportion, color choice, overall understanding of the particular genre a model might represent, etc. These are the things we either "like" or not. Criticism becomes more a matter of taste with these items.

Now, what's the solution?

[johnbuzzed]

How about just offering constructive criticism in a courteous manner, and not as an aside to another modeler? It's not that difficult, especially when one thinks for a few seconds before pressing "post".

Edited November 4, 2014 by johnbuzzed

[chunkypeanutbutter]

Heck, I know I'm pretty mediocre. I have good points but I still have problems with suspensions for pete's sake. I don't build exactly accurate models all the time, but if I think it's good, I'll post it. I welcome people to say what's wrong with it. Take my rustbucket DodgeA100: first it was just a rusty body. Then a couple people said, "Looks good, but why is just a body in Under Glass?" That motivated me to dig around for the rest of the parts and I feel it's one of my best ones.

I need to do some routine maintenance on it but I'm having trouble finding time here.

As for the community, I feel everyone here is gracious and kindhearted. Even when there is something wrong with a model, nobody is really a jerk about it, and most times the modeler know about the fault, and a laugh is had by all including the builder on the air of the mistake,

As a showoff I'm glad I found this forum. It's also good for farming ideas and drooling over other people's beautiful cars.

Mine aren't even CLOSE to theirs but I haven't had anybody say "Mine's better, yours sucks" to me, nor have I seen anybody say this AT ALL.

I think the forum is fine.

[slusher]

So, that's the problem...one of perception, valid or not.

Does being a "good" builder automatically make one an "elite, stuck-up jerk" ? Well, in some peoples' minds, being good at something IS a reason to "hate on them" (not a phrase I'd normally use, but appropriate I think).

And don't forget, unfortunately, people often parrot the opinions of others without any actual experience or interaction to back it up.

There are also two entirely different ways to look at a model. One is the objective technical skill of the modeler...paint gloss, realistic appearance achieved by weathering, part fit, nice clean foil work, scale-correct details, etc. These things are valid targets for "constructive criticism" if they're poorly done. The other is more subjective...design and proportion, color choice, overall understanding of the particular genre a model might represent, etc. These are the things we either "like" or not. Criticism becomes more a matter of taste with these items.

Now, what's the solution?

Bill, well said and really very true.

I always try to be positive but we have some great builders here of all skill levels. I have to say I have been treated as an equal since I have been here and any question answered. I can't see this forum stuck up or unfriendly in any way. I have nothing but respect for the guys here.

[MrObsessive]

I'm of the camp of "If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all". I'll admit that there are some posts that I've not commented on because the pics are so bad. Blurry, dark, etc......I have enough trouble with eyesight as it is without trying to make out what's in the pic.

Nevertheless, I'm also not the confrontational type, and don't always have the mind to either say something on the board, or PM the person.

If there are certain details in a build that someone may be overlooking in a WIP for example (one situation comes to mind), I have PM'd that individual. Not everyone handles criticism well, so better to do it that way, than to air it in public.

As Harry said however--------if you post something on a public forum, be prepared to take the slings and arrows!