Any chemists out there?

[Joe Handley]

Exactly, sugar cane ethanol's biggest drawback is that if you make alcohol from it, you have only alcohol, where with corn, you still have feed for livestock that is supposed to be of a higher nutritional value that just feeding them that corn straight from the field. You then also get corn oil and other byproducts from it as well. Oil does have a big advantage in distribution, and I have heard stories of them doing a variety of things to keep it that way, right down to threatening station owners who carry their product and biofuel in various ways, label such biofuels at their stations as not being "their" products, even though the gas and diesel may not be either, there is even a theory that prohibition was more to get rid of biofuel competition to then Sen. Rockafeller's Standard Oil and other oil companies.

[1930fordpickup]

The roadblocks of progress are made by the people with more than us Joe.

[Joe Handley]

The roadblocks of progress are made by the people with more than us Joe.

Very true!

[Aaronw]

Exactly, sugar cane ethanol's biggest drawback is that if you make alcohol from it, you have only alcohol, where with corn, you still have feed for livestock that is supposed to be of a higher nutritional value that just feeding them that corn straight from the field. You then also get corn oil and other byproducts from it as well. Oil does have a big advantage in distribution, and I have heard stories of them doing a variety of things to keep it that way, right down to threatening station owners who carry their product and biofuel in various ways, label such biofuels at their stations as not being "their" products, even though the gas and diesel may not be either, there is even a theory that prohibition was more to get rid of biofuel competition to then Sen. Rockafeller's Standard Oil and other oil companies.

I think the distribution is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Certainly the oil companies are not doing anything to encourage distribution of alternative fuels at their stations, but there is also the demand side. With only a relatively small number of alternative fuel vehicles out there (and those not all using the same alternate fuels) it often isn't cost effective to a station owner to "waste" a pump on those fuels. Of course the number of alternative fuel vehicles is also limited due to the poor distribution of fueling stations.

I'm in a notably green part of the state, so there is a higher than average number of alternative fueling stations available because more people around here own cars using these fuels. Still nowhere near as convenient as getting fuel for a car using conventional fuels, and of course travel out of the area can become an issue.

Those that offer dual fuel capability are a logical stepping stone. We have a truck at work that runs on compressed natural gas, but it also has a regular gas tank it uses when the CNG runs out. Plug in hybrids use gas when the batteries run down so it isn't a major problem if you don't have a charging station away from home. Bio-diesel vehicles can be run with regular diesel and I believe the E85 cars can also run on regular unleaded when E85 isn't available.

That flexibility will help the alternative fuels spread by making the cars less of an issue to own, while slowly creating the demand for these other fuels.

[Atmobil]

Back in 2007 I did a test on my 74 Mercedes 240D running it on a mix of parafin and used cooking oil. Worked just fine and if I had managed to get a proper filteringsystem going with tanks and pumps to keep it in I would have gotten very cheap fuel out of it. I knew a guy that was running a resturant at the time and got the used cooking oil from them for free. I had to buy the parafin but even when I was buying it in small quantities I got a fuel price that was about half the price of normal diesel and if I had bought in bigger quantities and with the cost of building and running a proper filtrationsystem I would have ended up with a fuelprice of about one third of normal diesel.

Now, this is in Norway, and here the fuel is A LOT more expensive than in the US. Back in 2007, one liter of Diesel was about 10-11 Kroner or about 2 dollars.

I have heard that you guys in the states have gotten cheaper fuel over the last year or so as the global oil prices have gone down but we have not. We are paying about 14-15 kroner for one liter of petrol and about 1 krone less per liter for diesel.

At the moment there is about 8 Norwegian Krone for 1 US Dollar so that is about 1,8USD for one litre. That works out at price of 6,8 USD for one US gallon.

As others have said, the biggest reason for not having other types of fuel is politics an economics. Most of the price of fuel here in Norway is taxes and Norway is also a big oil nation so for the Norwegian state (including the people) it is the best thing to use fossil fuels as long as possible. At the moment there is a very big green wave and we are seeing a huge amount of electric cars on the roads as these have no taxes on them when buying them and they don't have to pay for road tolls or parking and can drive in the buslanes and you get cheaper bank loans and cheaper insurance on them (and they are building more and more chargingstations for them) but that is also mostly politicaly and economicaly motivated as it gives the nation a reputation for being green at the same time as we are getting ever richer on the fossil fuels.

I have read somewhere that it should be possible to make a usable gas from the excrements from animals. Research in this field is greatly underfinancied it seems.

[Joe Handley]

One thing to keep in mind Aaron, while the number of Flex Fuel cars is smaller than the nation wide fleet of non flex fuelers, there are still 18 million of them prowling the street, that's a whole lot of potential E85 sales, then throw in the cars that are capable of running higher levels of Ethanol (discovered by accident that my Jeep can handle up to 25%), as well as diesels that can burn B20, that's a whole lotta oil not used for transportation that can be put into other things........like more plastic models! Biggest problem with running E85 is finding at a reasonable price, at Speedway I paid $1.69 last night vs $2.69 if I were going to run regular, but there is a local BP that just started carrying it last summer, but is currently selling at $2.39 vs $2.79 and tend to maintain that $.30 spread, then of the 180k (IIRC) gas stations, there are currently only 3,458 of those stations that also carry E85, or even the lower percentage blends. If most, if not all stations carried, or an even level of about 50% of those 180k stations carried E85 and kept that $1/gal spread I paid last night, that could increase the sales of Ethanol to people willing to use it in their flex fuelers.

Now if you want to talk Ethanol vs Natural Gas, I lean towards Ethanol. With my 200, I can run any grade of unleaded gas as well as up to 85% ethanol. So far as I know, The Natural gas duel fuel vehicles can run Nat Gas or Gas, but not a blend of the two. Something else that I would consider as an advantage to the Flex Fuel vs Dual Fuel is that flex fuel vehicles only require one fuel system that is capable of storing and distributing either fuel, where dual fuel has the complication of two complete fuel systems, granted that will give you extended range, but if you engineered a non dual fuel vehicle two use a bigger tank or to run 2 tanks, you could get the same effect.

[Ace-Garageguy]

The raw materials have to come from somewhere. Gasoline is a hydrocarbon so somewhere you need to get hydrogen and carbon as basic building blocks

Non petrolium based gas and diesel is possible, it just currently isn't cost effective vs. conventional means.

Exactly.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Hydrogen would be a great option, except that the Hindenburg made everyone terrified of it and the distribution system would be horrifically expensive to create.

A relatively cheap rooftop solar PV array can crack wastewater and rainwater into hydrogen and oxygen using only sunlight as its power source. A system capable of fueling a car daily for an "average" use cycle has been operated successfully. Honda has done much work in the field.

Lack of vision and a cowardly risk-averse business-as-usual mentality, political posturing and greed are all that stand in the way of essentially free, 100% renewable energy.

[Joe Handley]

I'm willing to be Greed and Political Posturing are the most likely suspects in that.

[Pete J.]

A relatively cheap rooftop solar PV array can crack wastewater and rainwater into hydrogen and oxygen using only sunlight as its power source. A system capable of fueling a car daily for an "average" use cycle has been operated successfully. Honda has done much work in the field.

Lack of vision and a cowardly risk-averse business-as-usual mentality, political posturing and greed are all that stand in the way of essentially free, 100% renewable energy.

Actually, I am a big proponent of hydrogen fuel. It has a heck of a lot going for it. First of all, when it burns it produces a single waste product - Water! No pollution of the atmosphere just pure H2O. It can be burned in an internal combustion engine or it could be used in a hybrid form as a fuel cell and again you only get water out the back side. Contrary to popular belief, in an accident it is far less explosive than gasoline and there is no need for a hazmat team to clean up a hydrogen spill. It is certainly no more difficult to transport, store and distribute than LP or CNG fuels and filling a cars tank is just as quick. The only real issues are corrosion and lubrication issues in an internal combustion engine. We just have to get past the Hindenburg thing and you are right, it could be produced at home with a solar cell array or on a large scale with any form of clean electricity and some water, even sea water would work.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Actually, I am a big proponent of hydrogen fuel. It has a heck of a lot going for it. First of all, when it burns it produces a single waste product - Water! No pollution of the atmosphere just pure H2O.

There is still the issue of oxides of nitrogen, which you get when you burn anything in a nitrogen-rich atmosphere like ours. But current catalytic converter technology deals with it nicely. The cats should last just about forever too, as there's no carbon-fouling like you get with petro fuels.

Lubricant life is enhanced, as there's no oil dilution like you get with liquid fuels either.

I was heavily involved with natural gas as an alternative fuel for years, and the technologies to use hydrogen are very very similar.

As far as the other difficulties, they have all been dealt with experimentally, and the only roadblock to implementation of H as a fuel is the will to do it.

At least one European test engine has developed more power running H that it did on petro fuels.

And, you can drive your rorty, big-cammed V8 well into the future with a clear environmental conscience.

[sfhess]

Henry Ford made a car that had body panels made of a sort of hemp-based plastic and burned hemp oil

http://www.thehenryford.org/research/soybeancar.aspx

[Pete J.]

The major problem with hydrogen is the water it produces. It is pure water and what most people forget is that it is one of the most corrosive liquids on earth. The exhaust system and the internal parts have to be built to handle it, but generally, that is not much of a problem.

[Ace-Garageguy]

2012 Indian research-development paper on H-powered IC engines. One of hundreds on various aspects of the topic.

http://www.ijetae.com/files/Volume2Issue4/IJETAE_0412_09.pdf

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy

[Pete J.]

2012 Indian research-development paper on H-powered IC engines. One of hundreds on various aspects of the topic.

http://www.ijetae.com/files/Volume2Issue4/IJETAE_0412_09.pdf

Interesting. It confirms just about everything I have seen on the subject. Darned the Hindenburg, full speed ahead!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Pete J.

[charlie8575]

I get the feeling that's the single biggest obstacle to progress.

That's almost always the case.

Charlie Larkin

[johnbuzzed]

Henry Ford made a car that had body panels made of a sort of hemp-based plastic and burned hemp oil

It was withdrawn from production due to driver hunger problems.

[johnbuzzed]

I think the distribution is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Certainly the oil companies are not doing anything to encourage distribution of alternative fuels at their stations, but there is also the demand side. With only a relatively small number of alternative fuel vehicles out there (and those not all using the same alternate fuels) it often isn't cost effective to a station owner to "waste" a pump on those fuels. Of course the number of alternative fuel vehicles is also limited due to the poor distribution of fueling stations.

I'm in a notably green part of the state, so there is a higher than average number of alternative fueling stations available because more people around here own cars using these fuels. Still nowhere near as convenient as getting fuel for a car using conventional fuels, and of course travel out of the area can become an issue.

Those that offer dual fuel capability are a logical stepping stone. We have a truck at work that runs on compressed natural gas, but it also has a regular gas tank it uses when the CNG runs out. Plug in hybrids use gas when the batteries run down so it isn't a major problem if you don't have a charging station away from home. Bio-diesel vehicles can be run with regular diesel and I believe the E85 cars can also run on regular unleaded when E85 isn't available.

That flexibility will help the alternative fuels spread by making the cars less of an issue to own, while slowly creating the demand for these other fuels.

I remember when deuce-and-a-halfs could run on just about anything.

[chunkypeanutbutter]

Kerosene, diesel, gasoline, waste oil, maybe more.

[Pete J.]

I think one of the major issues with fossil fuels is not just the damage they do to the environment but the fact that they are better uses for a limited resource. I don't think most people realize all the different things we use it for such as chemicals, pharmaceuticals, paints, and many other things. Don't forget if we run out of this stuff, there will be no plastic for models! Fuel is just one use and there are plenty of substitutes. We just happen to have a huge infrastructure in place to use the stuff. If you were to start from scratch today to develop that infrastructure, I think it would just be too costly and we would be using something else.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Pete J.

[Joe Handley]

This^

[von Zipper]

One cow can produce up to 1,000 liters of emissions each day

The average cow poofs out enough methane in one day to run a refrigerator for 24 hours.

[Joe Handley]

Check this out!

http://cumminsengines.com/cummins-ethos-28l-engine-demonstrates-50

[Art Anderson]

Not sure about the sugar cane after the run through the Plant but the corn is used for Cattle/Pig feed over here by me. I have heard that it was Henry Ford that sold the ethanol movement to South America, with his big push for the Soybean being raised in the US for uses like plastic and other things. This is back in the 30's and look how little we have moved toward a better option.

Uh, the Brazilians didn't need Henry Ford to sell them on the ethanol idea--in fact almost no country needed that! Ethanol is what Granny Clampitt called "Corn Squeezin's, better known as White Lightning, Moonshine, and more politely, just about any alcoholic beverage you can name. Of course, ethanol for motor fuel has to be far more completely distilled than hooch, in order to get the water out of it, a process that in itself is not particularly energy efficient. In the case of Brazil, they settled on the idea of making ethanol from cane sugar at a time BEFORE their considerable oil reserves were discovered (mostly offshore rigs), so it was the best alternative for a developing but still 3rd World country having not much in the way of exports to fund the purchase of foreign sourced crude oil.

Motor fuel has always been ruled by two things: Cost, and portability. As for cost, consider that there isn't much "free" hydrogen in our atmosphere, given that it's the most flammable of all gasses, combines readily with oxygen. It can be reduced from air, by supercooling the air, and then as the various gasses that compose our atmosphere evaporate from the resulting liquid, can be "skimmed off" so to speak, before any other gasses can evaporate (that's one of the products of Linde, for example. Hydrogen can be gotten by breaking down water, but that's not exactly energy efficient either--it takes a LOT of electricity to produce hydrogen in that way, at least to this point. Perhaps someday, the "magic bullet" will be discovered or created that does it, but it ain't there yet. Ab out 5 or 6 years ago, researchers at Purdue University found a micro-organism that in water, actually breaks that water down into hydrogen and oxygen, but yet that process, as it exists right now--would take innumerable acres of land in order to do that, not to mention the immense collection system it would take just to capture the resulting hydrogen.

On the way to that, however, is CNG, or Compressed Natural Gas. That is a very clean-burning fuel, and with all the gas discoveries in the past decade or so, a very plentiful fuel. On Wednesday of this week, CityBus of Lafayette IN (where I live) opened the first CNG dispensing station in the State of Indiana--to fuel their new generation of city busses--CNG fueled.

Some day, who knows when or how far out in the future, SOMEBODY is going to figure out how to make a combustible fuel for automotive engines that is both energy-profitable (meaning that the input of energy is significantly less than the energy output of the end product--something that is still very illusive in today's technologies), but until that time comes, most all the schemes for creating synthetic fuels is at best an even trade of one form of energy for another.

Art

[Art Anderson]

One cow can produce up to 1,000 liters of emissions each day

The average cow poofs out enough methane in one day to run a refrigerator for 24 hours.

Not to mention the methane emissions from some 8 BILLION human beings on this planet, and the probably trillions of termites as well.

Art

Edited April 10, 2015 by Art Anderson