What Do New Kits Have Inaccuracies

[Harry P.]

Going back to Art's suggestion that the kit manufacturers should not show the public any test shots...

Moebius does show us. We see mistakes. They fix the mistakes–before the kits hit the shelves with mistakes intact.

I see that as a good thing. We need more Moebius-like thinking in the industry–not less.

[sjordan2]

Going back to Art's suggestion that the kit manufacturers should not show the public any test shots...

Moebius does show us. We see mistakes. They fix the mistakes–before the kits hit the shelves with mistakes intact.

I see that as a good thing. We need more Moebius-like thinking in the industry–not less.

Right on. I'm shocked that Art, of all people, would suggest such a thing.

[bobthehobbyguy]

I think Art is saying the negative aspect of showing the test shots outweighs the positive. Just look at some of the kit reviews and you will see what he talking about. If they stop showing the test shots it because of the way we have responded. Pointing out flaws is fine but we need to be mindful of how we do it.

[Art Anderson]

Going back to Art's suggestion that the kit manufacturers should not show the public any test shots...

Moebius does show us. We see mistakes. They fix the mistakes–before the kits hit the shelves with mistakes intact.

I see that as a good thing. We need more Moebius-like thinking in the industry–not less.

Harry,

There is a WIDE difference between constructive criticism and the outright vituperant comments I've seen whenever someone puts up pictures of any test shot model kit. Perhaps there's a bit more "leadership" needed?

Art

[Danno]

Going back to Art's suggestion that the kit manufacturers should not show the public any test shots...

Moebius does show us. We see mistakes. They fix the mistakes–before the kits hit the shelves with mistakes intact.

I see that as a good thing. We need more Moebius-like thinking in the industry–not less.

True. But that's constructive criticism.

All too often, especially with one particular manufacturer, the criticism seems to instantly take on the 'pile-on' mob mentality of destructive attacks on the ownership and personal swipes at staff members of the company.

Methinks that might be what causes Art to conclude it might just be best left not done.

[Harry P.]

Harry,

There is a WIDE difference between constructive criticism and the outright vituperant comments I've seen whenever someone puts up pictures of any test shot model kit. Perhaps there's a bit more "leadership" needed?

Art

I'll agree with your point that some of the "criticism" is thinly disguised bashing. A tough call, I guess, as to whether or not a company wants to gather public feedback of a test shot. It seems to be working for Moebius... but I see your point about some people just "piling on."

Not sure what you mean by needing more "leadership," but I suspect you mean tighter forum moderation? Another tough call... at what point does a member's comments cross the line from "constructive criticism" and enter "bashing" territory? Not always an easy black and white call to make.

[Tom Geiger]

Also moebius kit msrp is $30 vs $25 for revell and Amt. All depends on their business model and what they feel works for them.

Yes, this is the difference that may be that last $5 per kit round of design changes that the $25 kits haven't budgeted. Moebius has positioned itself to be a low volume boutique manufacturer. They are avoiding big box type retailers and going for the niche market of high end modelers.

In fact speaking with all three of the major companies, they are all focusing on the fact that us baby boomers are retiring and will have more time and money to focus on hobbies. Note the new subject matter is all geared to our tastes. This is the new Renaissance of the hobby that should carry it for the next 10-20 years.

Right on. I'm shocked that Art, of all people, would suggest such a thing.

No, I think this is a direct response to the overall disrespect shown to Dave in his last attempt to communicate with this board.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Some of it imo is how people present themselves. In some cases its not the message its the attitude that goes with the message. There is a handful of members on the board that do not understand the concept of civility. They feel if they are right then that entitles them to be rude. Call them on it and the scream bloody murder that they are being attacked.

As it has been mentioned before those few have done a good job of running off some of the industry insiders with their behavior. I would also guess that managed to run off members that just don't want put up with it.

A little civility goes a long way and you can still make your point clear.

[Daddyfink]

This is what these "Bad Kit" threads look like to me and the rest of the modeling community

[Guest]

Also moebius kit msrp is $30 vs $25 for revell and Amt. All depends on their business model and what they feel works for them.

MSRP means nothing. My LHS owner had all of his Moebius kits priced at $21.85. He had AMT and Revell kits priced higher. Some lower at $18.85. That's where I'll buy a Moebius kit if I ever buy one.

[Tom Geiger]

ki

MSRP means nothing. My LHS owner had all of his Moebius kits priced at $21.85. He had AMT and Revell kits priced higher. Some lower at $18.85. That's where I'll buy a Moebius kit if I ever buy one.

Then you have a good hobby shop!

[jbwelda]

>Moebius has positioned itself to be a low volume boutique manufacturer. They are avoiding big box type retailers and going for the

>niche market of high end modelers.

five dollars makes the difference between a "big box type retailer" and the "niche market of high end modelers"?

no, it doesn't. especially not at the 25 vs 30$ level.

and that isn't the only example of illogical thinking in this thread, nor the worst.

mostly its the elitist attitude that rubs me the wrong way.

jb

[johnbuzzed]

Some of it imo is how people present themselves. In some cases its not the message its the attitude that goes with the message. There is a handful of members on the board that do not understand the concept of civility. They feel if they are right then that entitles them to be rude. Call them on it and the scream bloody murder that they are being attacked.

As it has been mentioned before those few have done a good job of running off some of the industry insiders with their behavior. I would also guess that managed to run off members that just don't want put up with it.

A little civility goes a long way and you can still make your point clear.

If those "industry insiders" have been "running off" because of what they see in these posts, then, perhaps they should not be in the customer service area of the business. If they take comments personally, they are doing no good for anyone; neither their employers or their customers will benefit by their "running off". I've been there; I've dealt with customers, whether over-the-counter, in the field, via phone, fax and e-mail for most of my life, when I think about it- since I was 18. From landscapers that spoke little English to over-educated medical professionals, pet owners that wouldn't know a heartworm from a roundworm; civilian and military; corporate and private; domestic and international. Any comments that are posted here by their customers should get back to the head honchos at the various manufacturers and be acted on accordingly. They need to realize that the comments are not directed at them, rather, at the products. A little training on their end can go a long way; it's an investment in their business.

Edited April 29, 2015 by johnbuzzed

[om617]

Any comments that are posted here by their customers should get back to the head honchos at the various manufacturers and be acted on accordingly. They need to realize that the comments are not directed at them, rather, at the products. A little training on their end can go a long way; it's an investment in their business.

You know you dont have to use the word idiot or useless to make anyone feel like it. Also it kills off the fun of actually trying to make somthing if the response always are arrogant and rude. Constructive criticism and helpful advice (Pictures,blueprints etc) i assume is more helpful then "i cant belive you get it wrong because todays tecknologi and resources". These people deserve more appriciation for actually doing an effort at making classic car models.

Edited April 29, 2015 by om617

[bobthehobbyguy]

John you miss the point the insiders have been driven off by the rude behavior and not the comments about the products. Its not the message its the attitude that goes with the message. There is no justification for rude behavior!! Unfortunately there are some who don't understand that and think they can do what they please.

[johnbuzzed]

I am not justifying rude behavior, nor am I justifying childish reactions to that rude behavior. The people who work for the manufacturers are professionals- they should have the necessary training to deal with irate customers in a constructive manner. It's one of the necessary costs of doing business.

[Art Anderson]

I am not justifying rude behavior, nor am I justifying childish reactions to that rude behavior. The people who work for the manufacturers are professionals- they should have the necessary training to deal with irate customers in a constructive manner. It's one of the necessary costs of doing business.

"Childish reactions"? Really now! To begin with, pics clearly identified as "test shots" and yet so many viewers seem to gloss right past the keyword, that being "TEST"? Irate customers for a test shot? Again, what part of "test shots" is so hard to understand?

Test shots are part of a "work in progress", meaning that the model kit in question is NOT ready for production, but are essential in determining what is correct on the model, and what must be changed/corrected before that particular kit is approved for production. However, the experience has been that far too many readers of such posts appear to have assumed that just because a test shot was photographed, and those pictures published, that they represent exactly what the final model kit will indeed look like--regardless of anything said to the contrary, and regardless of the presence of the words "Test Shots". And, that, John, was when the really nasty comments began showing up, not just nasty, but in some cases entirely without basis in fact.

In a way, it's neat that a model company would show stuff from "behind the scenes", but that does come with a huge risk--first impressions can be lasting impressions with many (if not most!) of us, be it in regard to a model kit or anything else we may see in our lives.

Witness the upcoming Moebius '61 Ventura: Several commented on an impromptu photo taken of a first round test shot body shown to potential buyers (for wholesalers and hobby shop owners) at last fall's iHobby: Immediately claims were being made ON this forum that the rear deck was way too long, the body was out of proportion. However, that body shell is/was created with photographs of the real car, with very visible measuring sticks laid on it, showing its correct proportions (I've seen those, BTW), from front to rear. and overall dimensions were gleaned from more than one authoritative source. Of course, as might be expected, several claimed responsibility for pointing out what they saw as out-of-proportion (including some who have posted in this very thread) and allege that they caused a redesign. Nothing could be farther from the truth in that regard. The model in question meets all the proportions carefully measured, and documented photographically (pretty easy to read a measuring tape and/or carpenter's folding rule in a picture, having every other inch blacked out, believe me!).

An issue was raised about the fins in the brake drums of those 8-lug wheels being not evenly spaced around their circumference! Guess what? They aren't on the real wheels either! The issue of the beltline window sill not having the little upward curve at it's juncture with the C-pillar? That had been noted internally before any pics of the body shell surfaced online. In fact, it was an issue pointed out early and often in the reviews of CAD and 3D scan files, not to mention early and frequently with regard to the 3D printed tooling mockup(s).

But in the end, the almost unending vociferous criticism that resulted does get very old, frankly. Especially when in comes to the point of being completely unconstructive--more harsh accusation than constructive. Add that to the inevitable frustrations that arise internally from professionals on the other side of the pond seemingly not following instructions, and it's just an awful lot for one product development person to have to deal with. In short, what could well have been an exercise in educating modelers as to just what all goes into creating a model car kit, it became a shouting, carping match that was really quite unnecessary.

Ask yourself: Would YOU (and by YOU I mean anyone reading this) willingly subject yourselves to such a mess? Somehow, I doubt that--so why even suggest that someone else do such?

Art

[sjordan2]

I say forge ahead with the test shots in spite of any rude criticism (stupidity is its own reward and doesn't interfere with my appreciation of the process). The result will be better for everyone.

[johnbuzzed]

"Running away" is a childish reaction. Dealing with the situation in an adult manner is the professional way to do things. This is known as "basic customer service". If they can't deal with their jobs and the possibility of flak heading their way, they should turn it over to someone at their location who is capable of being an adult. Not all customers are going to be happy. That's part of the job. Get over it and move on, or find something else to do.

We have seen more than enough opinions as to why there are inaccuracies in kits, old and new. Some are valid reasons, some are poor excuses. I think that by now, we all know, realize and accept the fact that there never has been, never can be and never will be a 100% totally accurate kit of any subject due to limitations from various causes. But to try to gloss over an error such as a too-short roof or erroneous body contours or dimensions with lame excuses is ridiculous.

This is not rocket science or nuclear physics. We enjoy building scale replicas of mechanical objects. We, as a community, have come to expect the products offered by the manufacturers to be at least accurate in contour and dimension, with scale fidelity. I'm not referring to seat-adjustment levers or lack of a dimmer switch or other such small details. If any of the manufacturers can't or won't see fit to provide us with products that have these basic qualities- and employ reps that prefer "running away" when they are confronted with complaints and questions about their products- well, then maybe they will suffer the same fate as Palmer Plastics did. I would hate to see that happen, but it's a tough world in business, and if you want customer loyalty and satisfaction- i.e., if you want to stay in business- don't run away from the customer.

Art, re-read my post #139.

Edited April 29, 2015 by johnbuzzed

[Art Anderson]

John,

I did read your post, very carefully, and I stand by what I wrote.

Art

[charlie8575]

This is not rocket science or nuclear physics. We enjoy building scale replicas of mechanical objects. We, as a community, have come to expect the products offered by the manufacturers to be at least accurate in contour and dimension, with scale fidelity. I'm not referring to seat-adjustment levers or lack of a dimmer switch or other such small details. If any of the manufacturers can't or won't see fit to provide us with products that have these basic qualities- and employ reps that prefer "running away" when they are confronted with complaints and questions about their products- well, then maybe they will suffer the same fate as Palmer Plastics did. I would hate to see that happen, but it's a tough world in business, and if you want customer loyalty and satisfaction- i.e., if you want to stay in business- don't run away from the customer.

I think that this paragraph, along with Art's thoughts a few posts above (which I happen to agree with completely,) sum up everything nicely from both sides of the table.

And BOTH of these comments reinforce one basic factor that seems to be missing in business dealings today: common courtesy.

I think John is absolutely correct in that people in the industry must be able to take the heat or get out of the kitchen. I think that applies to management or subordinates in any field, whether it's toy and hobby, computers, food processing, non-profit, medicine or any other field you wish to insert.

Unhappy customers are normal. 100% customer satisfaction is a pipe-dream. And I think anyone with some common sense and ability to observe the world at work will agree with that.

But, by the same token, as Art has pointed out, and I think quite rightly, reducing your dissatisfaction, no matter how legitimate the concern or grievance, into pitchfork and torch flailing helps nobody, especially if people do in fact become afraid of harassment, whether perceived or real, and that's something nobody should have to deal with.

Questions and comments should be a part of any product development, regardless of the category we're discussing.

If I'm developing a kit, I want questions. I want input. I want feedback in case I missed something.

That makes a better product for all of us. But only if the manufacturer is willing to listen.

I don't want an angry mob. When you get the angry mob, people tend not to listen, and all too often, to everyone's detriment because of some short fuses and legitimate grievances poorly expressed, issues go unresolved and fester.

Tell me again, who does help?

Charlie Larkin

[bobthehobbyguy]

Charlie well said. I totally agree.

[Bob Ellis]

Here is another way of looking at it.....

Unless you are Juho from Finland , who makes absolutely amazing scratch built prototype cars, your best bet is any new kit from Revell or Moebius (and any others). All you risk is $25-40, and poof, you have all the building blocks to a different model you didn't have before.

Art is probably correct, there is not enough money and manpower to make models the way it was 50 years ago. And even if it was, the demographics of the buyers today are different to support the business.

Let's do the best we can assisting Revell, Moebius and others ( I just remembered Galaxie) and see what happens. It always seems that some great modeler figures out how to make any shake the box model come out better. I am referring to the guy who added 2 chrome bar to the incorrect Revell '67 Camaro grille. I am sure all of you can find other examples.

It's been an interesting discussion. Thank's Art for bridging the past. Maybe this will help develop new kits. If not, I will still buy what is available and work with what I have.