Death of the "Camera Counter"

[Foxer]

Historical photos is interesting. Paper photos are prone to everything from just throwing in the trash to the photographer not making many prints. The digital age has given us mega amounts of already processed photos that rarely get printed but the digital copies get distributed in low resolution form all over the internet. The internet is a pretty safe place to store these archived photos. There is a site that archives almost every web page ... The Internet Archive   This surprised me by having a long gone web site I had 10 years ago. Try looking up a model car web page you miss or an old photo site that has gone the way of the paper photo. Our hard disks with all our photos don't last forever!

[Kit Basher]

I wonder what the current status is for using photos as evidence. My Dad, who was a professional photographer starting in the '40s, and took some crime scene photos, was concerned that digital photos would not be credible. Since digital photos could be easily altered without a trace, would they still have the same value as evidence. It's very difficult to alter a negative.

[Tom Geiger]

I recall a special room (with dark windows) being built in an office I used to work in, Mike. It was used to house the computer workstations for the AutoCAD guys. They kept it like a meat locker in there. How's that for a trip down memory lane?

I was in that environment way before AutoCAD existed. I started on CAD in 1981 on Intergraph and Autotrol systems, little green screens running off large main frames. We had two of those, the size of a mini van, each only able to support 4 of those little green screens.

And you are right... dark room, air conditioned to the max to keep the equipment cool, and the biggie that we forget about nowadays,  no smoking in the space because it was hazardous to the equipment.  As a non-smoker that was a treat because back then people could smoke at their desks... and they did!  Right next to you.  

[Roadrunner]

Oh yes, I smoked in every office I ever worked in, up until my last position, mostly because my boss (owner/president) had lung issues. 

[GeeBee]

We learned how to do everything the "old" way... load our own 35mm spools with bulk film, load our view camera film holders, delevop our own film (B/W and color), print in the darkroom, "burning" and "dodging" and the whole nine yards. I remember the process of developing 35mm color film was particularly tedious... the whole "chemical A to chemical B to rinse to chemical C to rinse to chemical D" etc. process took, I seem to remember, around two hours! 

 

That was the beauty of the Jobo system I used when I moved into developing my own colour film and prints, you didn't need as much chemicals in the drum  or tank and because they were being constantly agitated the times of the developing were quicker than using the old type of tank where you had to do it all by hand, and because the chemicals you were using were kept in the TBE unit so the chemicals were kept at the correct temperature 

If I had somewhere to have a darkroom I probably would have one, probably wouldn't use it that much as since buying a proper DSLR so I could used all my old Nikon lenses, but it would be good to at least have a go at the old way of doing things, i really used to love locking myself in the darkroom for a few hours.

 

[Foxer]

I was in that environment way before AutoCAD existed. I started on CAD in 1981 on Intergraph and Autotrol systems, little green screens running off large main frames. We had two of those, the size of a mini van, each only able to support 4 of those little green screens.

And you are right... dark room, air conditioned to the max to keep the equipment cool, and the biggie that we forget about nowadays,  no smoking in the space because it was hazardous to the equipment.  As a non-smoker that was a treat because back then people could smoke at their desks... and they did!  Right next to you.  

That had to be Autocad 1.0!

And my ashtray on my desk was always spilling over and people could tell drawings checked by me cause of the little burn holes.

[Tom Geiger]

 

That had to be Autocad 1.0!

And my ashtray on my desk was always spilling over and people could tell drawings checked by me cause of the little burn holes.

Back in those days I worked for a guy who chain smoked so bad that when he was working in the lie flat drawing files, he'd put his ashtray in one of the drawers (remember manual drafting on mylar?) !  One day he was finished and walked away and someone spied smoke coming from one of the closed drawers!   Fortunately it was just the little bonfire he always had smoking in his ashtray instead of the drawings catching fire.

And when companies started banning smoking, the first step was that people couldn't smoke in open areas, but were allowed to smoke in a private office. You had to be a manager to have an office, so suddenly there was a surge of promotion requests from departments.  So people got promoted for being smokers.

Oh I'm soooo happy companies banned smoking in the workplace.  

[Roadrunner]

I had forgotten all about this, but one company I worked at, in order to try and appease everyone, had a special room built inside, with huge negative pressure fans running all the time, and the smokers had to go in there to indulge. Oddly enough, the room had huge windows, so it was like being in a zoo.

[Tom Geiger]

Kevin, you reminded me of another story...  same company...  the engineering department decided to move all the files from the file room and put the cubicles of four smoking engineers in there to comply with the closed door smoking policy.  

They were supposed to go through the facilities department to make any changes... first for approval, and second for the work to be done properly by our contractors.  But they were doing this on the sly and made a big mess of it. They had unbalanced and unbolted file cabinets lining narrow halls, which was against fire code. They had some idiot reassemble the cubicles breaking mount points and all out of square.  

Once completed, the new occupants complained to facilities that the smoke never dispersed and it was too hot in there.  Well, file rooms don't get the air conditioning and ventilation as the office areas.  They're treated pretty much like closets!    So these idiots moved themselves into an unventilated room!  And these idiots were engineers!

Edited October 5, 2015 by Tom Geiger

[Crazy Ed]

<after a big ol' Snip>   So these idiots moved themselves into an unventilated room!  And these idiots were engineers!

    Their problem was they didn't pass it through their Engineering Tech! Remember, Sure Engineers Design, but it's the Techs that makes the Silly Things Work!

[Roadrunner]

That's too funny, Tom. The "painting yourself into a corner" mindset at work.

[Harry P.]

I wonder what the current status is for using photos as evidence. 

Good question! Does anyone know if digital photos are admissible as evidence? Danno? Agent G?

[charlie8575]

Good question! Does anyone know if digital photos are admissible as evidence? Danno? Agent G?

Among other things, I am a trained paralegal. Many hats.

The short answer is, at least here, a lot of judges do not like digital photos because even "secure" photos can be toyed with.

I know of several judges that still insist on negatives, so if that means disposable cameras or black-and-white, then so be it. 

One of my friends who's a pro keeps his Hasselblad and a stock of black-and-white film around. If the local police call, he goes to the scene, takes pictures, and then a policeman goes back with him to his studio and watches him develop and print the pictures to ensure chain of custody per their regs. 

A couple friends of mine are PIs, and they use  both, depending on client request; potentially testy/touchy/important matters usually get film to make sure the judge doesn't toss anything. 

Charlie Larkin

[charlie8575]

That was the beauty of the Jobo system I used when I moved into developing my own colour film and prints, you didn't need as much chemicals in the drum  or tank and because they were being constantly agitated the times of the developing were quicker than using the old type of tank where you had to do it all by hand, and because the chemicals you were using were kept in the TBE unit so the chemicals were kept at the correct temperature 

If I had somewhere to have a darkroom I probably would have one, probably wouldn't use it that much as since buying a proper DSLR so I could used all my old Nikon lenses, but it would be good to at least have a go at the old way of doing things, i really used to love locking myself in the darkroom for a few hours.

 

Dad and I have been toying- somewhat seriously, with buying one of these. They seem like a good value for us, and with the amount of pictures we both take (Dad does a lot of medium format and sheet film,) and it'll give us what we need quickly. Into the dedicated film scanner and bingo- digital files. 

Charlie Larkin

[GeeBee]

There's plenty of second hand Jobo darkroom equipment on eBay, and they don't really go for that much, I nearly upgraded to the later CPE2 set up, but there's nothing wrong with the earlier CPE set up,the only problem I ever had with the processor is the coupling magnet came adrift, a bit of waterproof 2 part epoxy glue soon fixed it back into place, if I had somewhere I could set up a nice colour darkroom set up, I'd really like to have a go at using a few rolls of E-6 film and developing them myself, but I have so many transparencies that I really want to scan my money will be going on a decent film scanner.

[unclescott58]

Wow! Fun reading. One forgets how much things have changed in ones life time. Film and smoking. Never smoked. Always hated it. But, I did sell cameras and film at a local camera store chain back in the late 70's and early 80's. The stores were called Brown Photo, and were fairly popular in this area for years. Now long gone, of course.

I remember at one of our stores we had one guy who worked the film drop off/pickup counter, who could tell if somebody was dropping off film with some questionable pictures on them. Now, Brown Photo had a policy about not printing pictures of a sexual nature. But, if was "artful" and somewhat in good taste they would print them. This guy could tell when people, by their reactions, were dropping off these type of photos to be developed. And would remember their names. When the photos came back, he'd then open the envelopes up a look to see if he was right. 9 times out of 10 he was right! Needless to say, he got fired for this and few other things. But, it was amazing how he could pick them out.

[Joe Handley]

He had to have been "one of them" or he just got that good at reading people, spend enough time dealing with the public, that later is possible!

[High octane]

I remember a camera store back in the 50's that had a hobby department, yes back-in-the-day on Division Street in Chicago.

[Agent G]

The Laboratory Division provided an inexhaustible supply of sim cards for the Evidence Technicians digi cameras. One card per scene. Photos were reviewed in the camera at the scene to assure the scene was thoroughly and properly photographed. The card was packaged immediately after processing the scene in the presence of a supervisor. The card was then locked in a lock box in the ETU van. At the labs earliest convenience, usually driving time back to HQ, one set of pictures were printed as a working file and provided to the detectives. The file was downloaded to the lab hard drive. The card was then conveyed to the department property room as evidence. If the case went to trial the card was checked out of evidence and a court copy of all photos were printed. Keep in mind all the sets, working copies and court copies were up for discovery.

We never had photos challenged at trial.

G

Edited October 11, 2015 by Agent G

[fumi]

I don't know when digital cameras were invented, but if they existed when I was in college, they didn't exist in the mass market.

Digital camera was invented by a Kodak employee in 1975, and by 1989 they had developed the first DSLR.

Kodak rejected to marketing it, for fear that it would jeopardize their film sale.

[Crazy Ed]

     Back in '78 I was part owner of a Radio Repair Shop. While working on one of our customers radio repeter stations off of Page Mill Road in Palo Alto, CA I got to chat with a few of their Engineers that showed me their Computers that had Graphics on their screens and used a small with buttons to move a cursor around the screen. The place was Xerox's High Tech Labs. Boy talk 'bout missing the Boat!

[Foxer]

Digital camera was invented by a Kodak employee in 1975, and by 1989 they had developed the first DSLR.

Kodak rejected to marketing it, for fear that it would jeopardize their film sale.

guess they missed the boat on that one

[High octane]

guess they missed the boat on that one

A lot of companies "missed the boat" on some things or others, not just Kodak.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Digital camera was invented by a Kodak employee in 1975, and by 1989 they had developed the first DSLR.

Kodak rejected to marketing it, for fear that it would jeopardize their film sale.

Coulda been THE number one major player in digital photography...oh, but why would we want to do that ?

Kinda like some oil companies failing to embrace alternative energy sources. I mean, everybody knows oil will last forever, right?

[Chuck Most]

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to transcribe this from my Selectric II.

A II? And here I were thinking you were some Luddite with an original Selectric. Please don't tell me yours is the Correcting Selectric II...