Bootlegger '40 Ford

[ANovaScotian]

Open question...

If you were a Bootlegger in Tennessee and you had a stock 1940 Ford Coupe to work with, what engine would you replace the standard Flathead with or what would you do to the Flathead to squeeze some more horses out of it?

Looking for realistic options, however I will entertain the more exotic ideas as well, as long as I can fit it into the AMT 40 Ford Coupe.

Regards

ANS

 

[Fat Brian]

What year is this fictional bootlegger operating in, that will greatly affect the options available.

[unclescott58]

What year are you building the car in? That can make a big difference.

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

After 1949, the then-new overhead valve Cadillac V8 was a popular choice. The also new-at-the-time Olds V8 would have been a winner too.

Prior to '49, the standard flathead hop-up mods would have been multiple carbs, a more open dual exhaust system, and reground camshafts...with of course porting-and-relieving done internally.

The very similar but larger Mercury flathead was also often swapped for the smaller Ford engine.

 

 

[ANovaScotian]

What year are you building the car in? That can make a big difference.

 

 

Lets say 1940s through the mid '50s

 The also new-at-the-time Olds V8 would have been a winner too.

That would be the infamous "Rocket 88" I presume?

[unclescott58]

Lets say 1940s through the mid '50s

That would be the infamous "Rocket 88" I presume?

Only one Olds V8 the time. It or the Caddy OHV V8 would have to be the choice. That was simple.

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Lets say 1940s through the mid '50s

That would be the infamous "Rocket 88" I presume?

Yup. Oldsmobile introduced the engine in 1949, and it soon dominated several classes of racing, as well as being one of the faster production cars of the day.

The OHV Caddy was probably more common as a 'shine-runner engine though.

[Ace-Garageguy]

The Olds engine is available in the fairly recent Revell '50 olds kit (be sure to get the one with the 3-speed gearbox...one of the kits has an automatic, and it would not have been the choice...BUT...the Olds engine could be bolted to an adapter and then bolted to the standard Ford 3-speed trans too, as could the Caddy).

One of the best Caddy engines out there is available as a vintage parts-pack kit made by Revell.

It has a multi-carb induction setup and period-correct headers too.

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

...And if you're going to build a tanker, don't forget to beef up the suspension. A tank of 'shine weighs at least several hundred pounds.  

[my66s55]

A Caddy or Olds is definitely the choice, but a LaSalle trans would be more a likely option over a Ford trans.

 

  

 

[ANovaScotian]

Parts Pak Caddy might just fit the bill... Just have to get rid of all that chrome.

[Greg Myers]

Parts Pak Caddy might just fit the bill... Just have to get rid of all that chrome.

Bleach dunk

[Ace-Garageguy]

A Caddy or Olds is definitely the choice, but a LaSalle trans would be more a likely option over a Ford trans.

Yup...which is why I noted that the '50 Olds kit with the 3-speed manual would be the choice there. The Olds tranny in that kit is pretty much identical to a LaSalle.

Other LaSalle transmissions are available in the Revell Miss Deal Studebaker funny-car and the Revell Mickey Thompson Challenger I (four LaSalles in that kit).

Still, the Ford top-shift 3-speed WOULD hold up for fast road work IF it wasn't subjected to clutch-dumping acceleration, and the adapter for the Hydramatic in the Revell parts-pack Caddy engine would work very well as a starting point to mate a Ford gearbox to the Cad. It was a very popular swap too.

Disregard the yellow on the illustration below. The part # you want to replicate is 0301.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

... Just have to get rid of all that chrome.

I would recommend the smelly EasyOff oven cleaner. It gets the clear undercoat too, which bleach sometimes doesn't. These were stripped with EasyOff, then scrubbed with Comet and hot water, toothbrush. WEAR EYE AND HAND PROTECTION.

[my66s55]

The reality is that the Olds/LaSalle setup would be much more of a benefit to a rum runner as the Olds was noted for its strong bottom end and the LaSalle for its strength. Drag racers like Stone, Woods and Cook used the the Olds for this very reason.      

[ANovaScotian]

Thanks for the tips, but I've already got lots of Super Clean for all my paint and chrome stripping needs

[Ace-Garageguy]

The reality is that the Olds/LaSalle setup would be much more of a benefit to a rum runner as the Olds was noted for its strong bottom end and the LaSalle for its strength. Drag racers like Stone, Woods and Cook used the the Olds for this very reason.      

While the Olds Rocket engine and manual gearbox from a wreck could be ideal (in case you don't know, the 3-speed manual factory-available behind the early Olds OHV engine WAS essentially a LaSalle), what was best for racing isn't what always got built for tankers.

The actual fact of the matter is that the Caddy was the prevalent engine for swapping into tankers, around here anyway...simply because it was the largest displacement, highest horsepower STOCK late.model OHV engine available at the time. The first-gen Olds OHV engine was a 303 cu.in. machine, and the same vintage Caddy was a 331. The box-stock Olds 303 was initially rated at 130HP, while the stock Caddy 331 put out around 160. 

The best machine shop in these parts is owned and run by the son of an early drag-racing legend and one of the planet's best machinists / engine builders. The old man is reputed to have got his start building fast cars for runners, and his own '40 Ford coupe...not a tanker, just a very fast street car...ran a full-race Caddy engine (which I know for a fact). 

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[my66s55]

The LaSalle short shaft was only used in the 50 Olds, no other years. The actual engine of choice was a souped up flat head. In a few instances a Caddy ambulance engine.   

[Ace-Garageguy]

Short-shaft or long-shaft doesn't matter. The LaSalle was used for the strength of the gearsets. Either short-or long can be run behind anything. Anything. They were very popular adapted to flathead Fords too.

WHICH particular trans came in which years I'd research IF I were building a REAL period car. It's not something I keep in my tiny little brain, but I recommended the '50 Olds KIT because it has the LaSalle-derived gearbox.

The fact that it was an OEM gearbox fitted behind a "Rocket" Olds engine would make for an easier swap...if you happened to have one. Simple.

One more time...hot flatheads WERE the norm until the free-breathing OHV engines from Detroit began hitting the junkyards. Not just ambulance engines...though that's what's endlessly repeated by the internet experts. The actual fact is that the Series 75 Caddy (massively heavy limos and other BIG cars) had some of the highest output engines. Probably available as ambulance power, but certainly not JUST ambulances...and not necessary to go really fast in a lightweight '40 Ford. ANY of the early OHV Detroit V8 engines would be a huge improvement over a full-race flathead, and you can bet the 'revenooers' had the hottest production stuff available.

Anybody who could ran a new OHV engine. They made more reliable power box-stock than highly modified flatheads.

A tank of 'shine won't do you much good if your engine comes apart while you're running, and big-power flatheads have a tendency to do that...especially when built with the technology of the day...no billet cranks or ARP bolts, etc.

Flatheads have long strokes, tiny bores, skinny little rods, 3 main bearings and they don't breathe worth a damm. They have a relatively low upper limit to what peak power you can get out of one just for short drag-racing blasts. A road-racing engine (which is essentially what a 'shine-runner would be) would necessarily have to make less peak power than a drag engine if it was expected to stay together.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[ChrisBcritter]

How does the Parts Pack engine compare with the one in the '59 Cadillac kits? I understand the '59 has a Hydramatic, but does the '59 need any external mods to represent an earlier engine? I have a couple of them on hand already.

[Ace-Garageguy]

How does the Parts Pack engine compare with the one in the '59 Cadillac kits? I understand the '59 has a Hydramatic, but does the '59 need any external mods to represent an earlier engine? I have a couple of them on hand already.

The '59 engine is still in the gen-one Caddy OHV family, and looks much like the earlier ones.

1949       1959       

[Spex84]

"Rodder's Journal" #70 has an article on a (supposedly original) moonshiner '39 Ford.

From the RJ website:

"Moonshiner John Phillips purchased his ’39 Ford Standard coupe new and built it to run liquor in Alabama and Georgia. Much like early stock cars, the Standard was stripped of all its nonessential components and fitted with a radical full-race flathead. Throughout the coupe’s storied career, Phillips corresponded with some of hot rodding’s biggest speed manufacturers—including Vic Edelbrock Sr.—for speed equipment and go-fast advice. Miraculously, the car hasn’t changed since it rolled into storage in 1953, and we have the full feature on the survivor in TRJ #70."

I've read the article and while I'm not quite convinced the car is 100% legit, there were some really cool tidbits of info:

-trunk held shut with turnbuckles so it can't pop open

-floating model T spring added so the car looks normal both loaded and unloaded

-oversized truck radiator, with hood sides crudely hammered so the wide radiator fits

-slightly wider steel wheels

-extra headlight/fog light

]http://nebula.wsimg.com/190597b38eed4e68573bb3217a91e08a?AccessKeyId=7C2E9993607837544222&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[slusher]

Thunder Road is about running shine and one car was a 49 Ford. Look up the car and see if there was any details about the car. Robert Mitchem was in it. Hope I spelled his name right.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Thunder Road is about running shine and one car was a 49 Ford. Look up the car and see if there was any details about the car. Robert Mitchem was in it. Hope I spelled his name right.

The general consensus among people who claim to have either seen the car up close or studied high-quality photos of it or "talked to the guy who worked on it for the movie" is that it was fitted with a Ford Y-block engine.  

[Ace-Garageguy]

 

"Moonshiner John Phillips purchased his ’39 Ford Standard coupe new and built it to run liquor in Alabama and Georgia. Miraculously, the car hasn’t changed since it rolled into storage in 1953

Pretty cool. And note the car was retired in '53...maybe because the old flathead wasn't a match for the tax men any more, and it was just easier to buy a later model car ...like a '50 Olds...than to swap in another engine.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy