Red Baron Engine

[Psychographic]

According to the info in the kit, it's a "1914 in-line 6 cylinder fuel injected overhead cam Mercedes Benz aircraft engine". I've searched quite a few variations of that wording and could not come up with any decent pictures of the engine. I would like to add some detailing to the kit's engine, basic things like distributor/mag and plug wires, fuel lines, oil lines (if it has any external ones)and any other obvious details. I know the engine is undersized, but I don't care about that.

If anyone knows where I could find some good pics, has any, or knows a better phrase to put in a search engine, I would sure appreciate it.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Psychographic

[Ace-Garageguy]

I LIKE what you've got going here.

If my memory serves me well today, I recall the engine in question is in fact (based on) a seriously scaled-DOWN version of a Daimler-Benz in-line aircraft engine from about 1914.

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/mercedes-engine/daimler-mercedes-d-iii-series-engine

 

I don't have access to my kit at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the induction system is NOT as it was on the aircraft installation...a dual updraft carb rig.

I think the model represents the "fuel injection" as having throttle bodies similar to a Hilborn mechanical system, so you'd do your fuel lines like that, with a high-pressure mechanical pump added wherever you can make it look reasonably legit.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[paul alflen]

WASN'T THE REAL CAR BUILT WITH A PONTIAC SPRINT 6 MOTOR?? I THOUGHT I READ THAT IN THE PROMOTIONS BOOK I THINK? THEY COULDN'T FIND A MERCEDES ENGINE AT THE TIME? WAS IT BUILT BY CHUCK MILLER OR TOM DANIELS???

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, paul alflen said:

WASN'T THE REAL CAR BUILT WITH A PONTIAC SPRINT 6 MOTOR?? I THOUGHT I READ THAT IN THE PROMOTIONS BOOK I THINK? THEY COULDN'T FIND A MERCEDES ENGINE AT THE TIME? WAS IT BUILT BY CHUCK MILLER OR TOM DANIELS???

The real car was built AFTER the model, and did in fact use a Pontiac OHC six. The actual engine represented in the kit would have been HUGE, which is why it's significantly scaled-down for the fantasy model.

The Poncho six is about the right size to go in the engine bay.

[Snake45]

Google-image says:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fokker+d7+engine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX3rfHiZzaAhWnuFkKHcoHDaMQ_AUICigB&biw=1264&bih=806

[Pete J.]

Did some research on this engine when I was working on a Red Barron and the engine was taken from a aircraft model. The engine is actually a Daimler DIII and was used in a number of WWI german aircraft.  When I scaled the engine out from the Red Barron kit, it is 1/48 scale.  Monogram had a number of kits that this may have come from.  As Bill mentioned, this engine has twin updraft carburetors which would have not worked on a car.  That is because on the aircraft, the intake ran through the crankcase to preheat the air.  This was an early attempt to deal with carburetor icing which was a serious problem with aircraft  but would be unecessary on a auto.  Kind of the opposite of a intercooler.  I am pretty sure that it was a cost savings for Monogram.  Just plugging in a piece from another kit that looked cool.  Also it followed the "German" theme.  Really a mishmash of parts.

[Snake45]

16 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

When I scaled the engine out from the Red Barron kit, it is 1/48 scale.  Monogram had a number of kits that this may have come from. 

Hmmmmm. I can't think of any 1/48 aircraft kits from Monogram that might have had this engine when the Red Baron appeared. They eventually had a 1/48 Fokker D7 (ex-Aurora), but that was late '70s and I don't think it had much if any of an engine.

[OldNYJim]

Some really interesting info in this thread!  It's a timely one too - the Red Baron is 50 years old this year!  Tom Daniel is selling special new prints of the car on his website, and I'm just gathering parts to do a special anniversary build of one myself

David, yours looks GREAT!  What a cool idea to swap the nose out!  Is there a build thread for this somewhere?  LOVE it!

[Pete J.]

4 hours ago, Snake45 said:

Hmmmmm. I can't think of any 1/48 aircraft kits from Monogram that might have had this engine when the Red Baron appeared. They eventually had a 1/48 Fokker D7 (ex-Aurora), but that was late '70s and I don't think it had much if any of an engine.

Actually that is the kit I was thinking of.  The kit has been around for quite a while. It was originally an Aurora kit and also boxed as a Revell kit.    I have not seen the Fokker kit but I find in highly unlikely that the company or Tom Daniels would have paid for the development work or choosen that engine from an odd scale just for that kit.  It is much more likely that they scrounged through the parts bin and found something that would work.  

[Snake45]

18 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

Actually that is the kit I was thinking of.  The kit has been around for quite a while. It was originally an Aurora kit and also boxed as a Revell kit.    I have not seen the Fokker kit but I find in highly unlikely that the company or Tom Daniels would have paid for the development work or choosen that engine from an odd scale just for that kit.  It is much more likely that they scrounged through the parts bin and found something that would work.  

Well I have one in the stash, from the initial Monogram reissue of the late '70s or early '80s. I'll try to check this evening to see if it even has an engine (don't think so), and what the date was on it. IIRC Red Baron came out in the late '60s or very early '70s, while Aurora was still very much alive. 

[aurfalien]

Hi,

Well you could start with this engine and see where it takes you;

http://armorymodels.com/148-d-iiia-late-aircraft-engine-w-exhaust-collector-for-fokker-d-vii/

 

[Snake45]

2 hours ago, Snake45 said:

Well I have one in the stash, from the initial Monogram reissue of the late '70s or early '80s. I'll try to check this evening to see if it even has an engine (don't think so), and what the date was on it. IIRC Red Baron came out in the late '60s or very early '70s, while Aurora was still very much alive. 

Just took a look at it. Copyright 1979, so that was years AFTER the Red Baron came out. And it does have an engine, but I looked at the RB instruction sheet and I don't think they have much if anything in common. 

Good theory, though. 

[Can-Con]

Guys, I'm pretty sure the engine in the Monogram Red Baron kit was tooled up with the rest of the kit and not cribbed from somewhere else.

In fact, I'd bet my entire stash of show rods on it.

[Psychographic]

8 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I LIKE what you've got going here.

If my memory serves me well today, I recall the engine in question is in fact (based on) a seriously scaled-DOWN version of a Daimler-Benz in-line aircraft engine from about 1914.

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects/mercedes-engine/daimler-mercedes-d-iii-series-engine

 

I don't have access to my kit at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the induction system is NOT as it was on the aircraft installation...a dual updraft carb rig.

I think the model represents the "fuel injection" as having throttle bodies similar to a Hilborn mechanical system, so you'd do your fuel lines like that, with a high-pressure mechanical pump added wherever you can make it look reasonably legit.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Bill, that is a big help. The carb is similar, there is a blob about the same shape, but it has a tube on top running up to a scoop, instead of running under the engine. Also the manifolds going to the cylinders are tiny looking compared to the one in your pics

12 minutes ago, Can-Con said:

Guys, I'm pretty sure the engine in the Monogram Red Baron kit was tooled up with the rest of the kit and not cribbed from somewhere else.

In fact, I'd bet my entire stash of show rods on it.

I agree, and would also bet your entire stash of show rods on it.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Psychographic

[fordf-100]

That is awesome looking! I really like the front end, is that a 1/32 scale P-40?

[Psychographic]

1 hour ago, fordf-100 said:

That is awesome looking! I really like the front end, is that a 1/32 scale P-40?

It's a Revell 1/48

[unclescott58]

Tom Daniel has talked about designing this kit several times. The engine was not taken from any other kit Monogram or anything anybody else had in their inventory at the time. The engine is based on a real WWI Mercedes aircraft motor. Again as noted, it was scaled differently from the rest of kit. For it would have been way too big otherwise. But, it was designed and tooled up specifically for this kit. Several of Daniel's designs took liberties with scale to get the right look. The Beer Wagon is another great example. A real Mack AC it was designed after is much larger than what the Beer Wagon would be in real life. 

The only Daniel kits that I can think of that used parts designed originally from other another kit, is Rommel's Rod. And maybe the Badman '55 Chev. Other than that. Everything else as far as I know, was specifically tooled up for each kit.

These are fantasy vehicles. Designed to look good. Not to be 100% accurate scale wise.

[disabled modeler]

Ether way I love them always have....there fun to build and look good when done.

[Dirty Dave]

8 hours ago, unclescott58 said:

Tom Daniel has talked about designing this kit several times. The engine was not taken from any other kit Monogram or anything anybody else had in their inventory at the time. The engine is based on a real WWI Mercedes aircraft motor. Again as noted, it was scaled differently from the rest of kit. For it would have been way too big otherwise. But, it was designed and tooled up specifically for this kit. Several of Daniel's designs took liberties with scale to get the right look. The Beer Wagon is another great example. A real Mack AC it was designed after is much larger than what the Beer Wagon would be in real life. 

The only Daniel kits that I can think of that used parts designed originally from other another kit, is Rommel's Rod. And maybe the Badman '55 Chev. Other than that. Everything else as far as I know, was specifically tooled up for each kit.

These are fantasy vehicles. Designed to look good. Not to be 100% accurate scale wise.

Not just the Badman. He had his way with several of the older Monogram tools, yielding us releases like Son of Ford and Boss A-Bone, to name the first two that came to mind.

[Psychographic]

On 4/2/2018 at 1:58 PM, CabDriver said:

Some really interesting info in this thread!  It's a timely one too - the Red Baron is 50 years old this year!  Tom Daniel is selling special new prints of the car on his website, and I'm just gathering parts to do a special anniversary build of one myself

David, yours looks GREAT!  What a cool idea to swap the nose out!  Is there a build thread for this somewhere?  LOVE it!

 

[Pete J.]

Ok, here is the straight skinny on this engine and I was wrong!  I was doing some research  for this thread and came across Tom Danial's web site.  It had an email for Tom so I decided to contact him and see if he would answer.  To my surprise and delight, he did.  Here is his reply!

Dear Mr. Daniel,

 

  There is an intense conversation currently going on a couple of web sites about the engine used in the Red Barron hot rod.  All agree that it is a scaled down D III Daimler aircraft engine, but there is much discussion about the scale and origin of the engine.  Some contend that it was picked up from another monogram kit in a smaller scale.  Others say that the engine was designed strictly for this kit.  Over the years I have seen this subject come up many time.  Would you mind terribly settling this once and for all?  Thank you

 

Pete Johnson.  

 

Hello, Pete.

 

Be happy to clarify the motor matter as regards my Red Baron vehicle design.

 

Clearly, I had utilized many design elements pertaining to the German Military circa WWI.

 

A German motor was a must, but when I actually measured a D III (which was on display at Paul Mantz Airplane Museum in Southern California), it was about 6 feet long!  NO WAY could it be used in the rather short wheel base design I was developing for the Red Baron Show Rod. 

 

The easiest solution was to just shrink the size of that motor to fit the engine bay as designed; add the Alpenhorn exhaust stacks, and an ‘Americanized’ carb air intake casting.  So, it isn’t precisely 1/2 the original D III size - its just a one of a kind miniature - used for this kit only.

 

As an aside, a ‘specialty’ motor builder in the Black Forest in Germany - who builds one-off replica WWI aircraft engines for the uber wealthy sport flyers (under MB License), wants to build a working replica of my ’shrunken DB motor' at 1:1 scale.

 

#1 son - Kelly Daniel - dreams of building an EXACT 1:1 TD/Red Baron - and install that working (mini) DB mill in it for icing on the RB Cake.

 

TD

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Pete J.

[unclescott58]

8 hours ago, Dirty Dave said:

Not just the Badman. He had his way with several of the older Monogram tools, yielding us releases like Son of Ford and Boss A-Bone, to name the first two that came to mind.

You are correct. I forgot about those two. 

[Dirty Dave]

Side note: When building my "Mess-O-Schmitt" competition coupe, I used two of the Red Baron engines, siamesed at the crankcases, to create a V-12 version, before adding a crank-driven Paxton supercharger setup.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Dirty Dave

[Ace-Garageguy]

   Pretty cool.   

[Bainford]

The Mess-O-Schmitt is freaking awesome!!