Gotta pay to play but OUCH

[Ace-Garageguy]

17 minutes ago, Xingu said:

Are you a professional automotive/mechanical engineer?  YES.

Have you or your team designed a vehicle of this caliber from scratch? I HAVE DESIGNED SEVERAL VEHICLES, AND MULTIPLE SYSTEMS, PARTS, AND RETROFITS, AS WELL AS REPAIR PROCEDURES FOR 200MPH+ COMPOSITE AIRCRAFT (THAT IN ONE CASE, THE FACTORY SAID WAS IMPOSSIBLE; OUR SOLUTION RECEIVED INDEPENDENT ENGINEERING APPROVAL FROM ONE OF THE FAA'S  DESIGNATED ENGINEERING REPRESENTATIVES, WHO HAPPENS TO BE ONE OF THE LEADERS IN COMPOSITE AIRCRAFT DESIGN). I AM CURRENTLY WRAPPING UP A $200,000+ 700 RWHP VEHICLE FOR A CLIENT. BESIDES BEING THE LEAD ENGINEER WITH FINAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERY DECISION, AESTHETIC AS WELL AS TECHNICAL, I'M ALSO PHYSICALLY MAKING THE MAJORITY OF THE CUSTOM PARTS AND INTEGRATING VARIOUS ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS.

Do you know any of the design parameters/goals set before the engineers on this vehicle? HOW COULD I? BUT OBVIOUSLY, RATIONAL SERVICEABILITY WAS NOT AMONG THEM.

If not, you are in a position to have an opinion, not claim that the "engineers" are idiots. You can criticize if you like, but please do not make it out that you could have done better and that the ones that actually designed and built this car are not engineers.

The manufacturer does claim that it is designed to drive continuously under full load with all 4 turbos at max boost. I have no idea if it really can. The Porsche engines were designed to be rebuilt after every race, if they made it to the end. A 24 HOUR RACE. IT'S CALLED LEMANS.

Which may be why they made sure to have somewhat easy access to the engine compartment. If removing the body can be considered easy. THE REAR BODY SECTION COMES OFF IN SECONDS-LITERALLY. 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Xingu]

Did any of these start as a blank piece of paper or were they modifications to an existing car? Are any of these designed to pass the Government standards and tests to be allowed into the country and driven on the street? There are differences between what is allowed on the track and what is allowed on the street. I don't think many of the super rich want to buy a brand new street car that is covered in dzus fasteners.

My point is, you have no hands on knowledge as to what was involved in building this car or building the bridge in Florida. Yet, you claim everyone that is working on these projects is a so-called engineer or an idiot, simply because you believe you would have done it differently. You pump yourself up, by putting others down. I do not have to take you at your word, just because you claim to be an expert, or because you slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. You may be a capable engineer or you may not, but do your really have to list all your achievements whenever someone disagrees or argues with you. I think there is some kind of syndrome that encompasses this type of behavior.

I am fairly certain you are intelligent enough to get your point across without patting yourself on the back or by putting others down. Just state the facts. If you think something could or should have been done differently, explain what it is and how it would work.

Everyone else is just stating how crazy it is to have to spend $21,000 for an oil change. You have to tell us how stupid the "engineers" are and how easy it could be to design it differently.

[1930fordpickup]

Plain and simple, high end cars cost more.   When you put new shocks on your Benz the price goes up. 

In the video they said what they were doing was a 27 hour job.  Even if the shop rate was 100 an hour that does not add up to 21,000. 

[CapSat 6]

2 hours ago, Xingu said:

If I could afford this car, I sure wouldn't want to work on it myself. I would be too busy buying islands and whatnot.

[CapSat 6]

"As long as I’ve got my health and my millions of dollars and my gold house and my rocket car, I don’t need anything else.”...

Edited July 20, 2018 by CapSat 6

[Ace-Garageguy]

3 hours ago, Xingu said:

Did any of these start as a blank piece of paper or were they modifications to an existing car? Are any of these designed to pass the Government standards and tests to be allowed into the country and driven on the street? There are differences between what is allowed on the track and what is allowed on the street. I don't think many of the super rich want to buy a brand new street car that is covered in dzus fasteners.

My point is, you have no hands on knowledge as to what was involved in building this car or building the bridge in Florida. Yet, you claim everyone that is working on these projects is a so-called engineer or an idiot, simply because you believe you would have done it differently. You pump yourself up, by putting others down. I do not have to take you at your word, just because you claim to be an expert, or because you slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. You may be a capable engineer or you may not, but do your really have to list all your achievements whenever someone disagrees or argues with you. I think there is some kind of syndrome that encompasses this type of behavior.

I am fairly certain you are intelligent enough to get your point across without patting yourself on the back or by putting others down. Just state the facts. If you think something could or should have been done differently, explain what it is and how it would work.

Everyone else is just stating how crazy it is to have to spend $21,000 for an oil change. You have to tell us how stupid the "engineers" are and how easy it could be to design it differently.

Personal attacks against forum members are not allowed.

If I had posted the remarks you did, highlighted in red, I'd be chastised and told that my remarks, at the very least, bordered on "abusive". 

But I guess when you're a moderator, the rules of conduct don't apply. There's a syndrome that encompasses that type of behavior, most definitely. But maybe we should let Gregg decide.

I don't really care if I'm banned at this point. I've offered hundreds, maybe thousands, of helpful bits of fact-derived advice here, on real cars as well as models, BASED ON THE VALIDITY OF MY OWN EXPERIENCE. Denigrate it all you want if it makes you feel better.

I stand by my statements.

Anyone who designs and builds a bridge that collapses before it's even finished is an idiot.

And anyone who designs a car that costs $20 THOUSAND for an oil change is an idiot as well.

There are many MANY things in the world that I think are just dandy.

But these two instances are NOT among them.

And putting other people down by patting myself on the back? Get a grip. Your straw-man arguments lead nowhere.

It's YOU who started attacking my professional qualifications to be allowed to voice an "expert" opinion regarding sound engineering practice. I simply countered your assertions with some of my background and experience. And ANYTHING I post regarding my accomplishments is simply to establish the value of my information, contrary to the legions of the inexperienced and uninformed on the internet who voice and endlessly repeat useless opinions unfounded in fact.

When you're in a position to hire me to design or build something for YOU, I'll consider sending you a complete resume.

In the interim, here's one of my clean-sheet-of-paper designs done under my own name:

https://contest.techbriefs.com/2010/entries/transportation/871

 

[Xingu]

I truly don't think you realize how many times you tell us about your background & achievements, how many posts and countless hours you have poured into this site and how many times you have proclaimed that the majority of the world has completely forgotten how things work or how to work with their hands and brains.

Yes, we have all seen your eco 3-wheeler (the partially completed model has been posted several times). While I personally don't think it is practical on today's roads, I hope that you do eventually complete it.

I am not calling you stupid or an idiot. In fact, I think you are a fairly intelligent person who puts a lot of thought into everything you do. I just wish you would stop telling us, we get it. Whether you feel you are degrading others to make yourself fell superior or good, it is surely how it comes across (I doubt I am the only one that feels this way).

I don't ever want to ban anyone, I want us to all get along.

You, or anyone else, are always free to send a message to Gregg or Dave if you feel I have crossed the line. I am not perfect and my buttons can be pushed just like anyone else.

[iamsuperdan]

 

 

Substitute good for "reliable," and you have a Bugatti.

 

 

Plain and simple, ease of maintenance was not a design parameter or consideration for this car. It was designed for maximum performance and reliability, darn the costs. And the ultra-rich people who Bugatti cater to really don't give a hoot about maintenance costs.

If the folks at VW said that the Bugatti had to be able to do everything it does, and be easily and cheaply serviceable, I'd bet they'd still be working on the design.

 

It's big difference from this car, that was designed with purpose, to say a mid-90s GM. Those cars were given a look, then the engineers were told to make everything fit and work. Which is why you need to remove washer fluid tanks and engine compartment cross braces to change a battery, or remove an upper engine mount and move the engine just to get to one bank of spark plugs on the V6. Or unbolt body panels to change a battery on a C3 Vette. At least a Bugatti was designed with purpose.

 

 

Now everyone just relax and calm down.

How did Richard Pryor put it? Have a Coke and a smile and...whatever else he said. 

[Freeman Cars]

I've been watching this post all afternoon. Michael you threw the ball at Bill and he threw back hard and I don't think you can handle it. You questioned his qualifications and he answered you. 

Now getting back to the original subject matter: I live on the Central Coast of California and we see cars like this daily. I've been serving vehicles like this in my restoration shop for over 20 years. I'm with Bill on the initial impression that somebody wasn't thinking about the serviceability of a car. Going through this sort of thing with a lot of different Ferraris I asked a representative of Ferrari of North America why they did certain things. His answer was, the dealers have to have a way a making money after they sell a car. They don't sell very many Ferraris, Bugattis, or whatever; so the service department has to keep the dealer alive between sales. That's exactly what I was told word for word. The owners of these cars usually have so much money they don't care. Many of my clients I never meet, I just talk to "their people".

As far as Bill goes, I always follow his posts and as one car guy to another I can tell he knows what he's talking about, even though we have never met. As far as you as a moderator, Michael, you're no Harry.

[Xingu]

48 minutes ago, Freeman Cars said:

As far as Bill goes, I always follow his posts and as one car guy to another I can tell he knows what he's talking about, even though we have never met. As far as you as a moderator, Michael, you're no Harry.

I can handle it.

I knew most of Bill's qualifications before I asked the question. No one will come close to what Harry was able to do here.

[modelercarl]

Michael threw the ball at Bill and he committed a bad error on it.  He countered with his usual egotistical back slapping claims without any backup at all as he has always done.  It you read his second paragraph about the $200,000+ vehicle he is designing,  responsible for all design decisions and integrating a variety of electronic systems for and wait....physically making most of the custom parts for.....this sounds like a rather spurious claim. 

In addition Michael's point is well taken.....regular followers of this forum have heard these type of comments from Bill over and over.  It is like he has some sort of inferiority complex and needs to hear these comments regularly.

In  my opinion Michael is a very reasonable and fair moderator who takes the task seriously.

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 hours ago, modelercarl said:

Michael threw the ball at Bill and he committed a bad error on it.  He countered with his usual egotistical back slapping claims without any backup at all as he has always done.  It you read his second paragraph about the $200,000+ vehicle he is designing,  responsible for all design decisions and integrating a variety of electronic systems for and wait....physically making most of the custom parts for.....this sounds like a rather spurious claim. 

In addition Michael's point is well taken.....regular followers of this forum have heard these type of comments from Bill over and over.  It is like he has some sort of inferiority complex and needs to hear these comments regularly.

In  my opinion Michael is a very reasonable and fair moderator who takes the task seriously.

You just gotta love this guy...also violating the rules against personal attacks while sucking up to a moderator. Impressive behavior for an adult man. 

And yeah, my remark also violates the rules. So ban me. I'm sick of the double-standard for behavior in evidence here.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[SfanGoch]

See below.

Edited July 21, 2018 by SfanGoch

[SfanGoch]

48 minutes ago, modelercarl said:

Michael threw the ball at Bill and he committed a bad error on it.  He countered with his usual egotistical back slapping claims without any backup at all as he has always done.  It you read his second paragraph about the $200,000+ vehicle he is designing,  responsible for all design decisions and integrating a variety of electronic systems for and wait....physically making most of the custom parts for.....this sounds like a rather spurious claim. 

Hmmmm.........have you ever built, let alone designed, anything other than a model? There are a boatload of guys on this board who would not hesitate blowing their own horn if they possessed even 5% of Bill's knowledge, experience and abilities. There are, in fact, a bunch who do. Zei gezunt to them. It's their prerogative to do so. Bill doesn't brag or pat himself on the back. He knows what he's talking about and simply states the facts based on years of hands-on experience, not as asides from armchair Exner or DeLorean wannabes. If anyone else knows as much about automotive engineering and design, just rebut whatever you disagree with using sound, factual information to state your case. When you get into impugning somebody's bona fides as nothing more than egotistical braggadocio............well, Chief, you already lost the argument. As the old saying goes, "If you got it, flaunt it." If you don't, pay attention. You might learn something.

[modelercarl]

Well I guess I should outline my bona fides.  In 1964 when I got out of the Army  (3 years in the 513th Intelligence Group, primary responsibility for intelligence in Europe), I enrolled at Lawrence Institute of Technology, Southfield, MI.  on the GI Bill.  Course of study was mechanical engineering.

After about 6 months of study I got a job at Pioneer Engineering, Warren, MI. as an entry level draftsman while continuing my studies 3 nights a week at LTU.  At Pioneer I was being trained in the special machine group.  This group was doing design of complete high production machine systems used by the automotive and diesel engine manufacturers of the US.  Over the course of the next three years I was recruited by competitors of Pioneer and eventually ended up at Modern Engineering, Berkley, MI.  I worked there for 4 years eventually becoming assistant group leader for the Lamb Machining Systems group.  Lamb was the premier high production special machine design and build company in the world.  Eventually I was recruited by Lamb to join their organization as an assistant project engineer in 1971.

Over the next 30 years I rose through the ranks to Project Engineer, Engineering Manager and finally Director of Engineering.  During that period I had responsibility for profit and loss, engineering, and assisted manufacturing and service departments from initial concept to final acceptance of our equipment in the customer's plant.

Products we designed and built machines for ranged from 100 station transmission housing machines, 5 machine systems for diesel engine block manufacture ($35,000,000) to small machines and systems for master brake cylinders.  Also included were all other sizes necessary to produce a wide variety of engine components and drive train components.  This equipment was built for the 3 major US car and truck manufacturers, all of the major US diesel engine manufacturers and ZIV in Russia and Daewoo in Korea.  We designed and built equipment for several European manufacturers as well

For about 5 years Lamb entered the auto body manufacturing system market also.  We designed and built  systems for robotic welding of body panel subassemblies and complete bodies for the 3 major automotive companies in the US.

During my career I not only learned quite a bit about engine and drive train components and their functions but also picked up a wide range of knowledge in the course of visiting and spending many days in customer plants around the world.

I have also become computer literate and can research anything that might interest me or I want to learn more about.

 

[Badluck 13]

...okay then.....back on topic....$21,000 for a oil change? And to think I complain paying $75 for a oil change on a PowerStroke .

[SfanGoch]

Impressive list of credentials,  Carl. Remember this at Camp King?  

 

 

Re oil change, AutoZone only charges $19.99 including a new oil filter. 

Edited July 21, 2018 by SfanGoch

[Joe Handley]

3 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

remove an upper engine mount and move the engine just to get to one bank of spark plugs on the V6.

That's kind of an issue with any transverse mounted V-Engine in a front driver, just worse if it happens to be a pushrod engine.........especially in a minivan..........................

 

Not sure if Dad's '06 Town and Country will ever get new plugs, I know with my 200, if and when I do, I'll probably buy the MSD Pentastar V-6 coil packs and swap them out while I'm in there, kinda want to get the RPM Motorsports intake tube for a "while I'm in there" mod.

[Ace-Garageguy]

10 hours ago, modelercarl said:

Michael threw the ball at Bill and he committed a bad error on it.  He countered with his usual egotistical back slapping claims without any backup at all as he has always done.  It you read his second paragraph about the $200,000+ vehicle he is designing,  responsible for all design decisions and integrating a variety of electronic systems for and wait....physically making most of the custom parts for.....this sounds like a rather spurious claim. 

In addition Michael's point is well taken.....regular followers of this forum have heard these type of comments from Bill over and over.  It is like he has some sort of inferiority complex and needs to hear these comments regularly.

In  my opinion Michael is a very reasonable and fair moderator who takes the task seriously.

 

8 hours ago, modelercarl said:

Well I guess I should outline my bona fides....

 

Not a bad resume, apparently reflecting a successful career.

And though we went in completely different directions with our engineering talent and education, I feel no need to denigrate your achievements.

 

Still though, you persist in attacking mine, calling me a liar, and making insulting remarks regarding my personality.

 

Are you a clinical psychologist besides everything else? And what do you think gives you the right to insult me on a public forum in outright violation of the rules? Because you suck up to a moderator who himself violated the forum rules in his conduct towards me, you believe you can make derogatory remarks about me personally, simply because you disagree with my stated opinion that a vehicle that requires a $20,000 oil change is a joke, and anyone who pays it is a fool?

 

I'm reporting your post as a deliberate inflammatory and abusive attack on me, personally.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

12 hours ago, Xingu said:

I truly don't think you realize how many times you tell us about your background & achievements, how many posts and countless hours you have poured into this site and how many times you have proclaimed that the majority of the world has completely forgotten how things work or how to work with their hands and brains.

Yes, we have all seen your eco 3-wheeler (the partially completed model has been posted several times). While I personally don't think it is practical on today's roads, I hope that you do eventually complete it.

I am not calling you stupid or an idiot. In fact, I think you are a fairly intelligent person who puts a lot of thought into everything you do. I just wish you would stop telling us, we get it. Whether you feel you are degrading others to make yourself fell superior or good, it is surely how it comes across (I doubt I am the only one that feels this way).

I don't ever want to ban anyone, I want us to all get along.

You, or anyone else, are always free to send a message to Gregg or Dave if you feel I have crossed the line. I am not perfect and my buttons can be pushed just like anyone else.

I am responsible for what I say.

I am NOT responsible for how it makes you feel. 

If stating the facts of my background and experience to lend credence to the advice I offer is taken by any member as "degrading to others" it is a measure of THEIR insecurity, not any overt action on MY part.

I have NEVER deliberately initiated a personal attack on another forum member, or engaged in the name calling and insults I've been subjected to.

Yes, I have retaliated occasionally WHEN I'VE BEEN ATTACKED FIRST...and who STARTS the exchange is to blame, just like in any fight.

Hit me, I'll damm well hit you back.

[Xingu]

Since I am pretty deep into this one, I am leaving the decision as what to do with the reported content (there are several posts that have been reported) up to the other moderators.

You have implied that many folks suffer from Dunning-Kruger, those don't count?

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

24 minutes ago, Xingu said:

 

You have implied that many folks suffer from Dunning-Kruger, those don't count?

 

Many folks DO exhibit the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's real, and rampant. But I have NEVER singled out a specific member to tag with the label...and that's the point.

I have corrected people who have posted factual errors, and I have made remarks that posting incorrect information is damaging (and people have occasionally corrected ME when I've made a factual error...which I appreciate and to whom I have always responded graciously...because I value objective truth over maintaining my ego).

I DO NOT INITIATE THE NAME-CALLING, PSYCHOLOGICAL SLURS, ATTACKS ON QUALIFICATIONS, OR ACCUSE MEMBERS OF DELIBERATELY LYING...all of which have been done to me.

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Badluck 13]

It’s time to lock this thread. It has strayed far from the original topic.  It became a thread  for finger pointing and accusations. Not to mention listing your resume and credentials. 

If you wish to continue this conversation I suggest you do it in private message.  That way those who care about the original post are not subject to this 

As a final Note I feel I must address the comment about the moderator.  As a moderator it is very time consuming and difficult.  As moderators we need to read every word looking for anything against the rules and guidelines.  When things get out of control like this it makes it even more difficult.  In my opinion Mike does a great job!