Educate me on Model T speed equipment

[misterNNL]

Thanks for posting those original Frontenac brochure pages. Did anyone else notice that one page states that this conversion makes it "easier" to use a supercharger(!). Really,a blown Fronty Ford four cyl engine! I don't suppose any photos if such a set up exist do they? What blower would have been available then and where can I get enough reference material to start building one?

[Ace-Garageguy]

41 minutes ago, misterNNL said:

Thanks for posting those original Frontenac brochure pages. Did anyone else notice that one page states that this conversion makes it "easier" to use a supercharger(!). Really,a blown Fronty Ford four cyl engine! I don't suppose any photos if such a set up exist do they? What blower would have been available then and where can I get enough reference material to start building one?

Here's a blown SOHC head, chain driven side-saddle blower. This and other fascinating racing T engine pix and info are available here 

(but to see the pix, you need to sign up for an account):  https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723&showall=1

[Ace-Garageguy]

54 minutes ago, misterNNL said:

I assumed the high hood line was a result of whatever body was originally used as a starting point or maybe the hood is not too high but the seats are too low by comparison.

Here's an example of a weirdly tall down-draft carb setup on a twincam Frontenac. Obviously, if you want to get this under the hood...

                                                  

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's some more vintage speed parts. Some T, some A, and some flathead and later, but all fascinating if you're into old go-fast.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/09/09/speed-parts-spotters-guide/

[Dirty Dave]

I just remembered another kit source for vintage banger speed parts would be the (rare) Lindberg 4 Cylinder Dragster. It has what appears to be some sort of OHV conversion head, though the exhaust valves appear to remain in the block.

The kit was based on this car:

 

[Mr. Metallic]

14 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

My guess would be to accommodate some tall downdraft carbs. The Frontenac head itself doesn't add all that much height.

Tall and narrow bodywork wasn't at all unusual, but the white car above is just...well...

I think, for whatever reason, the seat, or at least the cushion is missing. Look at the driver position compared to the steering wheel. It's like he's sitting on the floor.

The bodywork is tall, but I think the drivers position is over-exaggerating it. But, I have been known to be wrong

[misterNNL]

13 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Here's a blown SOHC head, chain driven side-saddle blower. This and other fascinating racing T engine pix and info are available here 

(but to see the pix, you need to sign up for an account):  https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3723&showall=1

Thanks again Bill for another link. I just registered today. I probably will build a replica of this chain driven Frontenac with the supercharger for a future project.

[Aaronw]

5 hours ago, Dirty Dave said:

I just remembered another kit source for vintage banger speed parts would be the (rare) Lindberg 4 Cylinder Dragster. It has what appears to be some sort of OHV conversion head, though the exhaust valves appear to remain in the block.

The kit was based on this car:

 

 

From what I've been finding, it seems many of the OHV conversions are OHV intake only, with the exhaust remaining in the stock L head location. Not sure why, except I gather there was a lot of guessing as to the best valve arrangement and the ratio, both in number of valves and size. Also some experimentation with the shape of the combustion chamber.

[jaxenro]

I know I am a bit late but this is a OHV Frontenac with add ons like water pump and oil pump which would be really valuable. The Frontenac OHV came in multiple versions the "T" was the touring, the "S" was the speedster, and the "R" was the racing one but visually they were the same. All are a contemporary to the 1920's

you might want to read this as well I came across it when researching Disteel wheels

 

http://www.tmodelman.com/wanderwell.php

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by jaxenro

[misterNNL]

You should probably consider adding some serious suspension upgrades for replicating a T that has to travel 5,000 miles. I would also add a period tool box and multiple spare tires already mounted on their rims for quick on the fly repairs. To withstand 5K of pounding on bad roads I would run disc wheels instead if the wooden factory spokes. Be sure to keep us posted on your choices and progress with the project. This should be fun to watch!

[Mike999]

This might give you some ideas.  Here's a link to a photo collection of a RAJO-equipped Model T Speedster tricked out for touring. This is a 1918 Model T chassis with a 1912 Speedster body. The link also has some history of RAJO equipment.

I was researching T speed equipment while building the ICM 1913 Model Speedster. Hop-up equipment for that year is easy: there ain't none. Looks like the first T speed equipment didn't appear until 1917 or so:

"About 1917, Craig-Hunt sold a 16-valve single overhead cam Ford racing head nearly identical to that of the 1912 Peugeot (DOHC) Grand Prix racing engine. Crude in the beginning, later versions of the Craig-Hunt head used an enclosed bevel gear and shaft setup to drive the cam, and a cross flow design with four ports on each side with two plugs per cylinder...Craig-Hunt cross-flow 16-valve single overhead cam heads (the first overhead valve heads built for the Ford motors) were built for racing only and not for touring cars or trucks.  Not surprising when you consider that each of the four valves per cylinder in early heads were advertised as 1½” in diameter (1 5/16” in later heads).  Price in 1918 was $85."

https://dyler.com/cars/6736/ford-model-t-rajo-speedster-cabriolet-roadster-1918-multicolor-for-sale

 

 

[jaxenro]

The link I posted to the Wonderwell expedition details two model T’s That actually did the Paris to Peking run in the early 1920’s. From the article they drove to the following:

 

Together, the two Ford cars covered Spain, Portugal, Morocco, Italy, San Marino, Switzerland, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Poland, Russia, Ro mania, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, crossing the Red Sea then to India, Burma, Indo-China, Siberia, Japan, the Sandwich Islands, and arrived by steam ship January 5, 1925 in San Francisco, for the last leg of the around the world tour.

[alan barton]

Here's a Fronty for you from the amazing engine collection at the American Museum of Speed in Lincoln Nebraska.

 

Edited May 27, 2019 by alan barton

[misterNNL]

Ok forums model T gurus....what are the three copper lines running to and from that crank driven device in the front? it seems like the more engine of this genre I see the more variations reveal themselves.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, misterNNL said:

Ok forums model T gurus....what are the three copper lines running to and from that crank driven device in the front? it seems like the more engine of this genre I see the more variations reveal themselves.

They're plumbing for an external oil pump, allowing pressure lubrication...like this setup:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/87949.html?1239556854

[Mike999]

And if you didn't add an external oil pump, look at the bottom right of this pic. The knurled brass cap with "Ford" script on it is the oil filler cap.

For anyone wanting to super-detail an ICM Model T, this is a stock 1913 engine.  It shows lots of details like the 2 nuts holding the valve-cover panels, bolts on the oil pan, the fan belt and the carb at bottom left. ICM provides those "T" bolts holding the exhaust manifold as 4 separate (and tiny!) parts.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mike999
goof

[misterNNL]

Thanks Bill, I thought it was probably something like that. Not too difficult to replicate either and those copper lines really pop against dark engine block colors.

[Modelbuilder Mark]

On 5/24/2019 at 11:13 AM, jaxenro said:

I know I am a bit late but this is a OHV Frontenac with add ons like water pump and oil pump which would be really valuable. (SNIP)

I know I am resurrecting a bit of an old thread, but I am in need of some input as I am trying to detail out a Fronty motor and I seem to be missing something.  In this motor above shows the lower radiator hose connection and is one of the only ones I have seen online.

On 5/26/2019 at 10:34 PM, alan barton said:

Here's a Fronty for you from the amazing engine collection at the American Museum of Speed in Lincoln Nebraska.

Yet on this motor, there is no such water line on the same side of the motor.

Is it this bit  lower connection of the chrome bit that is coming down from the Magneto drive on the top of these two pics? This second photo is why I ask, as you see the hose goes from the radiator down to the passenger side, roughly the same area. (right below the time stamp)

 

But I also saw this, only picture I have seen of this.(Lower right)

Edited February 21, 2021 by Modelbuilder Mark

[Danno]

I don't have an answer for you, Mark, as I am not that familiar with the Model T engine. However, don't lose sight of the fact that the examples you are looking at here are different configurations. The museum engine is clearly a competition set up and doesn't have all the same accessories as a stock engine would have. The engine in the lime green car does not appear to be a Ford and it has a front-mounted chain drive. As such it is configured much differently than a stock Ford T. The other one (in the dark car with the red steering column) appears to be much more consistent with a Ford T. I'd tend to go along that line, of the three examples you show.

 

On another note this thread brought to life, the "high" hood speedster.  

While all the conjecture about why the hood is so high is interesting, I have a totally different take on it.  Yes, it's a tall, narrow hood and radiator, but I don't think it is unusually tall at all. The "driver" is a kid. Not a full-grown adult. His diminutive size (due to being a kid) gives the illusion of the car being unusually tall -- if you are viewing the driver as an average-sized adult. He is not. So, I don't think it's all that unusually tall after all.  Just my 1-cents worth (after inflation).

 

??

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

On 2/21/2021 at 11:23 AM, Modelbuilder Mark said:

I know I am resurrecting a bit of an old thread, but I am in need of some input as I am trying to detail out a Fronty motor and I seem to be missing something.  In this motor above shows the lower radiator hose connection and is one of the only ones I have seen online.

Yet on this motor, there is no such water line on the same side of the motor.

Is it this bit  lower connection of the chrome bit that is coming down from the Magneto drive on the top of these two pics? This second photo is why I ask, as you see the hose goes from the radiator down to the passenger side, roughly the same area. (right below the time stamp)

But I also saw this, only picture I have seen of this.(Lower right)

 

The yellow engine with the green head has the stock water port blocked off with a black blanking plate just visible behind the carb. Here's the bare block clearly showing that water port.

Stock T cooling, below.

The yellow engine has an aftermarket coolant manifold on the opposite side, where these square-drive plugs used to live. The plugs are there to facilitate removal of casting core sand from the water jacket during production.

The block has been machined to accept studs to hold it in place.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ace-Garageguy

[Modelbuilder Mark]

Thanks Danno/Ace

As I have been looking around the web, I see WAY more modified Fronty motors than stock. I did see the inlet that you are referring to on the motors I have, but based on the molded in hose, it looks like it goes into the front cover, with no available mounting location on the front.

That being said I like the shaft driven water pump/Magneto on the passenger side of the motor and had started fabricating that. This is the set up I want...

The two motors I am aware of are the one in the Cinder Bug kit (the one I am currently working on) and one from the fruit wagon. They each have their strong and weak points. The question I have, is that Cinder Bug has the generator molded in, and none of these that have the shaft to the pump/magneto have the generator. If I use the Cinder Bug motor, will I need to grind it away? 

(I fully acknowledge I am not a mechanic. Any resemblance to actual functional electrical systems is purely implied, and not guaranteed ?)

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Modelbuilder Mark

[tim boyd]

Thanks to a reminder from Alan Barton, there is actually a third Model T engine to use as a basis for a Fronty conversion.  It's the engine in the c.1975 1/2 release of the all-new (at that time) AMT 1923 Model T Roadster kit - the one with the illustration of a green street rod version on the box art.  (This kit was recently reissued for the first time since 1975....)   

The same engine was also in the Model T Panel Delivery and Woody-style Depot Hack kits, which shared most of the tooling with the Model T Roadster.  I haven't had the time to look it up myself, but Alan says the detail of this engine is significantly better than the ones in the 1960's AMT Trophy Series '25 T and '27 T kits.....TIM  

[Richard Bartrop]

I bought the reissued "new" '23 T, and both the engine and frame are indeed nicer than what was in the old '25T kit.  Also, unlike the '25 T engine, the Fronty head from the '27 will fit on this one.

Also a question for people with real world knowledge.  One of my projects is a '20s vintage Mercury speedster, and while I'm tempted to equip it with the DOHC Frontenac head, I'm also wondering just how practical they would actually be for street use, seeing as they were advertised for racing only.

[Mike999]

Anybody need an excuse to buy another book?  "The American Hot Rod" by Dean Batchelor has a wealth of information about vintage speed equipment, who made it and how it was used.  Batchelor writes from personal experience, he was hopping up cars and driving on the California dry lakes from the 1930s. 

The first chapters of the book cover modifications and speed equipment for the Model T, followed by the Model A, the Model B '32 Ford 4-cylinders and of course, the Flathead.  A lot of old-timers didn't care for the Ford V-8 when it was first introduced, and kept hot rodding their Ford 4-cylinder engines.

I've had the book for years and only looked at the pix, but recently read it for the first time.  It's a great read.  Batchelor worked the night shift at Lockheed in Burbank after WWII.  He and his friends would get off work, eat breakfast, then drive to the dry lakes north of Palmdale/Lancaster and spend all day Saturday there.  Then Batchelor would drive back to Burbank, take a shower and go dancing at the Hollywood Palladium.  Meaning he was doing some serious driving in those pre-freeway days, and didn't sleep for the whole weekend. 

The American Hot Rod: Batchelor, Dean: 9780879389826: Amazon.com: Books

[misterNNL]

On 5/27/2019 at 3:31 PM, Ace-Garageguy said:

They're plumbing for an external oil pump, allowing pressure lubrication...like this setup:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/87949.html?1239556854

Thanks Bill. I thought you would know.