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One of the most famous race cars nobody seems to know anything about.....


Egilman

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Six months work off of nothing but downloaded photos from around the net...

Is it art? or the ruminations of someone with too much time on his hands...

Anyway it's a car.... It has an engine, will eventually have wheels... {chuckle}

Edited by Egilman
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7 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

Nice start on the Wasp.

That wasn't a guess was it... {chuckle} Yep, the Marmon Wasp.... Short lived car (racing life that is) but the first super car... Win, placed or shown in over 100 races in it's first season (1910) She was entered in anything that had a purse, Dirt Sprints, Speed Races, Endurance Races, Hill Climbs,   It's designer, builder and driver for that season, Ray Harroun, was named AAA's World Driving Champion... Then he retired citing that Race Car Driving was just too dangerous... 

In 1911, he was convinced to come out of retirement to run the Brand New Indy 500 mile endurance race for the Marmon Car Company.... He won... It was his last race....

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7 hours ago, Egilman said:

That wasn't a guess was it... {chuckle} Yep, the Marmon Wasp.... Short lived car (racing life that is) but the first super car... Win, placed or shown in over 100 races in it's first season (1910) She was entered in anything that had a purse, Dirt Sprints, Speed Races, Endurance Races, Hill Climbs,   It's designer, builder and driver for that season, Ray Harroun, was named AAA's World Driving Champion... Then he retired citing that Race Car Driving was just too dangerous... 

In 1911, he was convinced to come out of retirement to run the Brand New Indy 500 mile endurance race for the Marmon Car Company.... He won... It was his last race....

I've been collecting references to model one myself, so I recognized that chassis.

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23 hours ago, Richard Bartrop said:

I've been collecting references to model one myself, so I recognized that chassis.

Yep I was collecting images for over six months before I thought I had enough to start modeling... And even then I needed to find more and really research the car... It was built off the 1909 Marmon speedster with updated 1910 parts... It qualified as a 1910 car... They didn't change the wheelbase or track of the chassis just re-arranged it... Other than the parts needed to do the rearranging and the redesigned engine it was a basic Marmon speedster... Marmon entered two cars in the first Indy 500, the Wasp and a basically stock 1911 Speedster... The Wasp came in 1st, (mostly the result of Ray Harroun's tire change strategy) and the Speedster came in 5th if memory serves.... 

It wasn't the fastest car on the track but it was, when driven within it's limitations, the best car on the track...(on many tracks nationwide)

Here is the latest iteration....

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Added the Rear Spring mounts and version 1 of the springs themselves, but I do need to rework the rear springs, right now they are a maze of small disjointed parts....

I'll keep plugging along best I can...

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Still plugging along....

The Rear Springs took a little longer than I had anticipated.....

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Still need the bolts and shackles for them but once they are done, I'll move into setting up the rear axle...  

Once it's a rolling chassis, I can start on the bodywork....

A close-up...

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Onwards...

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Well she's got a tail, not completely dressed for the job yet, but soon to be fit for the task.... But then ladies are like that.... (at least the ones I've been associated with)

screenshot_542.png.e9e5e90db375bd971ff44433c7778721.png

 

I gots a question? I don't really mind talking to myself, but since I'm the only one active in here is there a reason a mod needs to approve my every post?

My bona fides should be established by now, and I can offer up references...

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2 hours ago, Egilman said:

 

I gots a question? I don't really mind talking to myself, but since I'm the only one active in here is there a reason a mod needs to approve my every post?

My bona fides should be established by now, and I can offer up references...

 

The board auto-moderates every user until they reach 25 posts. 

It can't be turned off for specific users, it's all or none. 

And if we turn it off, the spammers bombard us with all kinds of spam nonsense.

So it stays in place.

 

 

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1 hour ago, iamsuperdan said:

 

The board auto-moderates every user until they reach 25 posts. 

It can't be turned off for specific users, it's all or none. 

And if we turn it off, the spammers bombard us with all kinds of spam nonsense.

So it stays in place.

 

 

Oh I understand Dan, MSW does a similar thing.... But the info for how long it remains in place is no where to be found on the board, (and I looked) so the only way was to ask...

Apologies if it upset anyone...

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44 minutes ago, Muncie said:

This is looking good.  Very interesting to see the details of this car and it's been enjoyable to follow your progress.

Thanks Steve, I don't feel so lost anymore.... I like to do detailed studies of a subject... then reverse engineer it... That was part of my first job out of tech school.... (too many years ago to count)

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Hi again, have been a little bit under the weather as of late so not much going on...  So I thought I would show some of the work that has gone into this....

The Car, the Marmon Wasp,  is part of the HAER collection of outstanding American Engineering.... I have the drawings they made of the current car I know representative only not real accurate... (but good for use in comparable proportions)

Here is an image of the work so far superimposed on the left side drawing of the car..

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The drawing shows a forward lean to the chassis, and yes the car does have a 1.23 degree forward lean... (but it's a lot easier to draw it flat on plane) There are other discrepancies between the model and the car of today... I'm building it as close to  race day as possible, and the drawing represents her as she is today... I do have the basic dimensions of the car, 115.5" wheelbase, 187.5" overall length, 56.5" track at the rear wheels, 69.5" overall width, (measured at the front wheels) The overall height is 59.5" at the fin, (and no the fin doesn't lean forward as drawn even on the car today) and 56.5" to the top of the rearview mirror... (the first rearview mirror ever used on a race car, some claim used on any car but research hasn't been able to nail that one down) According to Ray, the mirror wasn't much use, it vibrated so much it was almost pointless... Besides it was only installed to get the car around the rules about having a mechanician ride around the track with the driver acting as a spotter... Everyone else in the race except Ray had a passenger....

The HAER drawing if anyone is interested...

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The car as tested in 1910.....

 

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There are noticeable differences between the car as built and at the first Indy 500...

 

The Car on race day...

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Anyway, this was the start of my journey in modeling this unique race vehicle....

Onwards.....

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1 hour ago, Bainford said:

That last photo is about the best I've seen in period. Great photo. I may have to snag a copy.

Thanks Trevor!

That one I did some Gimp work to make it more useable.... It is a nice shot... Lotsa details

Everything I've put up has been published on the web, I have some I can't put up and I know the difference, but if anyone claims a copyright to any image I post, please take it down... OR, tell me and I will take it down... Some of them I have done some work to to heighten their usefulness in dragging out details... 

I have over 100 images of the Wasp and Marmon Speedsters in general including a Marmon sales brochure from the period for the speedster showing the internal mechanical layout...

All of them obtained off the net, public fora and the like and most have been up for months... (probably a pretty good fair use claim) BUT! no matter, If anyone wants me to take one down, it's gone...

I won't steal anyone else's work or property...

ISM is a good source so is Classic Cars... and then there is the old school source the local library...

Good Luck...

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Well, another update....

A redesigned/revised Rear End, relocated Rear Springs and Rear Wheels and Rims from the 1910 version of the car.... And yes she carried 12 spokes on the rearsscreenshot_545.png.05a6a0d020b814f5b1f638145ed99f50.png

No tires yet, and details are still lacking but I'm making headway.... I do have the 1/16th inch steel plate reinforcers in the file, just turned off at the moment, details needing to be done are the lug plates and clamps for affixing the Tires/Rims to the wheels....

I'll probably go back to the front axle so I can mount up some front wheels and settle the ride height/forward lean issue.....

Onwards...

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And now with tires!!!! 

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1911 version of Goodyear 34x4.5 racing tires... (actual dimensions: 35.125x4.625 inches inflated on 25 inch rims) Looks like I'm going to have to lower the Axel some more, at least an inch to account for the forward lean....

(going to require another re-configuration of the springs, I think increasing the curvature a bit)

Now on to the front end...

Edited by Egilman
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And we now have a rolling chassis....

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Still needs a LOT of details and tweaking before she's a finished chassis....

But she's got good rubber all around now... (and I went ahead and tweaked the rear springs, that's what took so long, I had to rebuild them from scratch)

Onwards

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Well, I was piddling around with this trying to figure out which way I wanted to go... I did the upper radiator tube and then though that it would be much better if I finished out the driveline so the Rear axle will get completed....

So I installed the Flywheel and Clutch....

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Next up is the shift mechanism, and the shift gate, and the part of the driveline that reaches the thrust bearing.... (with two universal joints)

With that I'll be able to set the final position of the load crossmember and the pivot point of the rear suspension....

Onwards....

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Beautiful rendering of a very famous car.

I wish AMT had tooled this up when the did the Thomas Flyer in the 1970's.

Would have made a great pair of kits.

Of course, nobody will ever cut steel for a kit of this car now. But, it is nice to dream.

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Well, the die casters have done this car, (inaccurately I might add) and a couple of limited edition kits have been made, also inaccurately... There is a 1914 Mercedes GP winner out there, and the maker, (FPP, out of Portugal I think) also makes the 1914 Indy winner version in resin.... (almost identical) I have a copy of it on my shelf... It's gorgeous...

That's my inspiration for this one, and several others that haven't been modeled at all... The crazy idea is to do all the Indy 500 winners, but I really don't think that is going to be possible, there isn't enough time left to do that...

I haven't decided if I'm going to kit this one for 3D printing yet, but the thought has occurred to me...

I agree no one is going to make an injection kit, there just isn't the mass market for it... 

Sometimes model manufacturers miss the boat, they are famous for it...

Edited by Egilman
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Doing a bit more, This took a little bit of time cause I had to find a few more detail images.... then, figure out how to represent the parts....

Axle Mount Plates and Rear Shock Absorber mounts....

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The lower Axle Mount also incorporates the Shock Mount and Jacking plates The upper shock mount hangs off the frame....

The images I found are detailed high res images which show the truss rod attachment points and gave me a much more detailed look at the Differential Cover....

This allowed me to adjust everything accordingly...

Next up is the spring shackles and bolt heads for all the mating parts.... And adding the 1/2 inch truss rods....

Onwards....

Edited by Egilman
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