Big John Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Looking good EG. I've been stumped on the cone clutch and the bottom of the engine,/oil pan, what do you have for reference for those parts? Since this screen shot I've added the magneto and shaft linkages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted January 30 Author Share Posted January 30 (edited) 18 hours ago, Big John said: Looking good EG. I've been stumped on the cone clutch and the bottom of the engine,/oil pan, what do you have for reference for those parts? Since this screen shot I've added the magneto and shaft linkages. Thanks, My references for the engine are nothing but the pics I've been able to collect off the web, I've used those for the actual in car configuration as it was a one off design specifically for the Wasp.... Although is was based upon the Marmon 32 engine.... The clutch is also a standard Marmon designed part, originally a 1909 clutch, that was changed to a 1910 clutch at the start of testing the car.... The design is taken from the pictures in the Marmon advertising manual of 1911 and is only the exterior shapes... I've since obtained a more detailed blueprint cutaway drawing of the clutch from 1911.... The exterior images are quite accurate as far as I took them.... The second image above comes from the 1914 Model 32 ad manual, and you can readily see the changes made from 1911 to 1914, the water pump is the same, just changed hands, left to right... as with the Magneto left to right but a newer model as well.... The block designed has changed as well.... The rear engine mount is no longer a steel stamped channel, it has changed to a steel casting... They made a lot of changes between 1911 & 1914 The image below is from a 1911 Marmon 32 that is still in existence today.... (restored and running, it is obviously modified for electric start) That's the source for the shape of the sump cover plate and it's oil tubing connections.... And is a certified known example of a 1909-11 Marmon 32 engine in original configuration.... The oil pan is exactly the same as a standard Marmon 32 oil pan, a machined casting except they extended the ends to cover the full length of the six cylinder block... They also revised the block a bit, widened it to use a larger crank circumference for stronger bearings... The info I got on the shape of the pan is derived from the many engine pics of the car today, and using Gimp to enhance the images to bring out the background details, there is no good shot or drawing of the actual pan.... I also used a pic of the pan on a 1911 Marmon 32 to get an idea of the center sump where the oil line connections are made.... So, my rendition is a derived part.... I have a pic of the block when it was being repaired after the 2011 celebration of the 100th year of Indy where she threw the #2 rod and busted a hole in the aluminum crankcase..... You can see the bottom side is one flat machined surface, which matches the details I've been able to glean from the other images of the museum car.... You can see where the earlier patch weld job was done that patch job failed and weakened the block even further, so they stripped it down and sent it out to have it professionally repaired... Today you can't even tell it was broken, it is actually stronger than when originally cast... That's the only pic I could find of the actual block, as I said it's a one off, the only one in existence and it's substantially different than the standard model 32 engine.... I've been researching this car for a while... And I still don't have enough sources... I have decent coverage of most of the wasp or the car it was built from, what I don't have are images of the middle of the frame and the parts that reside there, there is a part that sits just behind the mid frame member (thrust cross member) which take the load from the Axle/Driveline housing and transfers it to the frame while keeping the output shafts from the clutch aligned with the driveline, it is where the second universal is located... I only have images of the top of it and blurry images of it hanging below the frame of the car... That's is probably going to be another derived part... You carb look fantastic... Very well done, and an accurate representation of it... Edited January 30 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 (edited) Well chemo just about kicked my butt for the last few days, but I finally got something done.... All Bolted, Nutted and Shackled up, the Rear End is now an attached part.... The bottom truss rod is also installed... I reduced the flange plates on the ends of the axle housing in preparation for making the brake shrouds, (those big drum looking things inside the rear wheels) more accurate.... I first have to locate the brake support inside the brake drums.... I'm not going to model the brakes themselves as they will never be seen, but I need the bracket cause it carries the brake rods and torque tubes for actuating the brakes along the front of the axle... You will definitely see those when looking at the chassis.... Next up is the transmission... It bolts to the front of the differential carrier and has a thrust tube that meets the thrust bearing at the mid frame crossmember, there is also an oval shift rod tube that parallels it along the right side... The driveshaft you see in the picture is a placeholder.... (just keeping everything properly aligned) Still making progress..... Onwards.... Edited February 4 by Egilman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 And an update.... Transmission.... Mounted to the forward part of the differential... It could not be removed without disassembling the Differential.... (the lower round of anchoring studs came from the tranny case into the differential housing and were nutted on the inside) Three forward speeds and reverse non synchromesh.... This is a work in progress at this point... Some details are on it, but still working out the basic shape... What was interesting from this design is the tranny could be disassembled thru the differential housing.... Made for very quick repairs if necessary.... Any way I'm still working at it.... Thanks for the likes and comments they are appreciated... Onwards... EG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 Well, another update... Transmission version II is finished, probably going to have to do a version III, feels a bit out of scale... (too fat) The two diagonal braces and center truss rod is installed.... I think I'm going to suss out the thrust bushing first before taking a third look at the tranny.... I need a change of pace..... Onwards.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 (edited) Ok, Another update... I think the Driveline Package is basically done... May need a bit of tweaking as I learn and discover more about the technical side of the car, but that is the basic transformer part, transform the engine rotation to go that-a-way right now.... The Rear End is about 95% accurate to images, the Transmission & Drive Tubes are about 85% accurate the Truss Rods and Braces are about 75% accurate, And I would guestimate that the Thrust Carrier is probably 55% accurate it's the part I had the least amount of info on, a lot of engineering deduction of how it probably been and what it should have looked like... It will have to suffice until more accurate information surfaces.... I'll probably take on the Brakes and their associated rods and cranks... Yes the Wasp had dual acting mechanical brakes, only on the rear wheels mind you, but with four shoes per wheel, (standard Marmon practice) she could stop pretty fast.... Any way Onward the odyssey goes.... EG Edited February 13 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 (edited) Update.... Brakes... The Wasp had two independent braking systems, the Emergency/Parking brake and the driving brakes.... On a standard Marmon 32 the brakes were mechanical and independent in nature, the Parking/Emergency brakes were actuated by the lever outside the cockpit on the right side of the chassis... the Driving brakes were actuated by a pedal on the right side of the cockpit floor.... The Marmon Wasp however had the Emergency/Parking brake on the right side of the chassis identical to the standard Marmon, but no cockpit brake pedal I can find from numerous pics of the interior layout... The only thing I can find are artists renderings of the chassis which seem to show the Driving brakes synced up with the clutch, when the clutch was depressed, the driving brakes would actuate the more you depressed the clutch pedal... It is the only explanation for the lack of a brake pedal in the cockpit.... It also conforms to the accelerator configuration the pics show... (more on this later when I get to the driving controls) But first, we have to locate the actuating rods at the rear of the car.... The only way to do this accurately is to build a sample representation of the actual brakes.... The inner brake shoe was actuated by the lever, the outer by the pedal... Each shoe was a single piece expanded by an "S" cam working against rollers affixed to each shoe. (same system used on heavy trucks to the present day only the brake rods are actuated by an air cannister) In 1913, Marmon went to split shoes instead of one piece, (upper and lower half shoes) but in 1910/11 they used single shoes.... Made for a very simple installation... The rod you see from the "S" cams heading towards the transmission was the actuating rod for the brakes, it consisted of a torque tube riding on a shaft... The torque tube actuated the inner shoes and the shaft actuated the outer shoes... They were supported at the end of the shaft by a bracket that bolted to the Axle housing allowing two lever arms to attach to the tube and the shaft... Overall view... I haven't got to the actuating rods yet as I'm still sussing out the equalizer configuration, each system used equalizers to balance the braking force from side to side, this is the purpose of the crossmember right behind the thrust bushing housing... It carried the intermediate brake tube/shaft that was actuated by the lever and pedal... The outside diameter of the brakes was 15" measured to the friction surface and the drums were 16" made of pressed steel and polished inside, they were affixed to the wheel hubs and were removed with the wheels... Anyway, now working out the brake actuating rods and shafts, eventually getting to the actual pedals, (both brake & clutch) and the brake lever which will take me to the shift lever as well... Onwards.... I hope everyone is enjoying this design exercise.... Thank you... Edited February 16 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 (edited) Another small update.... The Brake Rods.... Input is at the lower left to the equalizers then back to the left side brakes directly and to the right side brakes through the intermediate shafts... Probably time to figure out the Drums and get them corrected... Then I can get back to a rolling chassis.... {chuckle} Anyway, Onwards.... Edited February 19 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 Making progress my friends.... I did the Drums and then said what the heck I'll finish off the rear wheels..... And I went ahead and colored the tires black, it looks better this way.... Just about done with the rear end.... Unless I come across something I missed it's pretty well finished.... And a bottom view.... Still need to detail out the rear wheels, screw heads and the inner portion of the rim clamps and stuff like that, but except for the small stuff, essentially they are done... Onwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 I was taking a break and playing around, Got the thought of throwing a bit of color on her to get a feel for the scheme.... These are not accurate colors but close and the only judge is what we have today at the museum so that is what I will probably run with when the time comes... But anyway, this represents an idea of where I'm going with this.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldriginal86 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 That is a bunch of work there. Well done! Will this be printable when finished? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Hi Randy, Thank you and Welcome to the thread... Haven't decided if I'm going to make it printable yet, there will have to be some major changes to do so.... Right now I'm just trying to capture it as close as I can figure it out... This is her status as of today... (just a few minutes ago as a matter of fact) As you can see the emergency brakes are now connected and I've finished sussing out the base bracket for the brake lever and am working out the shifter bracket.... Scale will be the main issue, there are too many parts that won't print right now cause they scale down too small, (she is drawn at 1/1) Almost everything would have to be adjusted once a scale is decided upon... It is a long term project.... I'll be plugging away at her till she is done or I'm done..... (whichever comes first) Thanks for commenting and feel free to ask questions... It helps the motivation.... EG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattilacken Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Great modeling! Its pretty darn time consuming that kind of work! Super nicley done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Thank you Anton, It's taken a while to get the process of working on a screen rather than paper sorted out, but I think I'm getting the hang of it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 Well three tries later and we have a complete Emergency Brake and Shifter package.... And the overall view... And the clutch pedal and linkages are the last part to getting the complete driveline from flywheel to tires done.... Onwards.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 1 Author Share Posted March 1 (edited) Ok, New update, Clutch Pedal and Throwout Bearing... The basic setup.... The pedal when depressed actuated a cam working against a roller the cam is angled so when it moves against the roller the pull on the link increases geometrically (faster) which of course pulls on the link at the torque tube which moves the throwout bearing, (it's really a throwout bushing) away from the flywheel pulling the clutch out of engagement... You can see the link to the driving brakes pinned to a tab on the Pedal arm.... When the pedal is pushed it pulls the brake rod.... Now I know I mentioned that I really didn't have any proof that this was the actual way it was set up, BUT,,, I found some.... Lower right corner.... You can see the link plainly on the pedal arm just above the clutch link underneath the firewall with the Flywheel in the background... That's how the driving brakes were hooked up... It also leaves the pedal on the right side of the cockpit for the accelerator... Overall looks.... I still have some details to finish off like the brake rod going thru the crossmember, (need to cut a hole in the crossmember) Pillow blocks for the clutch torque tube and sort out a method of mounting the cam/link assembly to the frame... (using the two square head bolts on top of the frame) Well she is almost ready for the cockpit floor, but before I do that, I have to get back on the engine and steering...... Anyways, Onwards..... Edited March 1 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Fantastic work EG! Looks like you got your reference info from Indy on the clutch linkage, transaxle, and brake linkage. Finished my layouts for the water pump and magneto. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 5 Author Share Posted March 5 (edited) Very Nice John.... Beautiful work.... Edited March 5 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 8 Author Share Posted March 8 Another short update... Steering Gear version II.... Well, of course the Steering Knuckle is part of the Front Axle assembly and the Pitmann/Sector arm is part of the Steering Gear, then there is the drag link between the two... Just roughed out at this point and I'm about to start on the actual gear box.... Onward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 10 Author Share Posted March 10 (edited) Ok, still plugging... The basic steering gear of the Marmon Wasp.... Modified from a Standard Marmon 32 Steering Gearbox.... Of course the input tube length will be set later, and the inner mounting brackets will have to be sussed out... (probably has something to do with that block bolted to the bottom) I have no references from that angle and the back side... Anyway, some details to add to the drag link but then I'm calling it done... Probably head to the firewall next so I can make sure the gearbox angle is correct... and build the Steering wheel... Onwards Edited March 10 by Egilman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 14 Author Share Posted March 14 Another short update.... The preliminary work on the firewall... The Firewall takes the shape of the Radiator... Aside from the corners at the shoulders which are curved the shape is exactly the same... And the basic framework mounted to the frame... Very rough blocking out here, it's a very difficult part to get a complete understanding of... There are numerous cutouts and inner cockpit support structures to suss out... The two sides right and left are completely different... This may take a while.... Onwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 Good start on the firewall EG. Here are a few more detail photos that may help. There appears to be a cast metal part that holds the steering gears inside the cockpit. Closeup photos are courtesy of a fellow maned Tom from Carousel-1 (I failed to note his last name but am eternally grateful for his offering) Hope they help 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 15 Author Share Posted March 15 Oh Wow!!! Those are exactly the images I needed... The lower horizontal is angle iron, the box is obviously a wooden frame with a cast cover supporting the steering wheel shaft and center idler gear.... It is bolted thru the 3/16ths band iron, wood frame and cast steel support bracket, the band iron runs from the upper and lower angles in the left and from the rear engine crossmember to the outer frame at the top made of 2" x 1/4" steel bar... The tall bar which is just off the centerline on the right supports the ends of the angles which supports the open cut ends of the sheet metal........ Excellent images!!!! I also see where there are some images of the car during a maintenance cycle, with the cylinders and cowl removed... Those will be a great help sorting the two different sides of the firewall as the supports are configured differently... And they capture the angle iron used to support the floor pan.... It does a good job of showing the inner support structure as well the one that carries the upper steering tube support... AND!! I see where the throttle is!!!!! (throttle is the 1910 term for what today we call the choke) in 1910 the pedal on the floor was called the accelerator pedal... (chuckle) On the standard Marmon 32 (#33 car at indy placed 5th) they had two levers mounted to the steering column to control the throttle and spark advance, the Wasp used both systems but didn't have the levers... The spark advance is mounted to the left side of the upper column support and the throttle is on the upper right firewall... Thank you thank you thank you!!!! Those images cover a LOT of missing details.... But they also represent the car as she is today, I'm trying to model her as she was on race day... This means the throttle will be mounted opposite the spark advance on the column support... The car when originally built at the end of 1909, had a speedometer as well, and was photographed carrying the cable during most of 1910, (even while racing) but in 1911 at the first indy, it and it's drive was gone.... My technical configuration details come from an original 1911 Marmon sales brochure, it shows the frame details and all of the layout... They are obvious artistic renderings of photos showing the details but are in perspective view so are inaccurate for measurement purposes.... But they do show how the chassis was configured for the standard Marmon chassis... I've included them below... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 15 Author Share Posted March 15 (edited) Sorry double post.... Edited March 15 by Egilman Double post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egilman Posted March 18 Author Share Posted March 18 Another update... The firewall is taking some time... The firewall was custom fitted, all handwork and special parts to convert a two seat Marmon 32 Speedster into the single seat Wasp... As a result, the firewall is a very complicated assembly... Here is where she stands today.... She is close, but far enough out to warrant a redesign... Here is a closeup of the engine side illustrating the complexity of it.... It's got three different layers all in the space of an inch and a half.... Anyway still working it out... Onwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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