Paint question

[StevenGuthmiller]

You can save yourself a whole bunch of heartache if you approach the possibility of a good paint job from the perspective that a truly “show quality” paint job doesn’t necessarily require you to be a professional painter.

You can either commit to the long game, (sometimes a VERY long game) and continue to chase the elusive perfect paint job directly from the airbrush or can, which might take years of experimentation and practice, or you can follow the example of those of us who capitulated years ago, but then realized that you can achieve the same, or often even superior results with nothing more than the right materials and some elbow grease.

I don’t even try to get a perfect paint job anymore.

It’s not worth the aggravation to me.

I would much rather spend a couple of extra hours cutting and polishing and be pretty much assured of a magnificent paint finish, than cross my fingers and pray that everything goes exactly as I had hoped, which it almost never does.

If you can spray a mediocre finish, and then operate a sanding pad or paper, along with some liquid polishes, you can be producing superior finishes over many that rely on their spraying expertise straight from the can in a minuscule fraction of the time that it will likely take you to reach that level.

You’ll be able to put your paint jobs right next to the best painters out there, and nobody will ever know the difference.

 

 

 

 

Steve

[Ace-Garageguy]

18 minutes ago, RW033 said:

I find painting like welding - it’s only as good as what’s underneath and if you mess up you better be good at grinding (or in this case wet sanding)

I have found it's usually much easier and gives better results to strip any seriously bad paintwork and start over.

There's plenty of info on this site regarding safe stripping.

EDIT: I also agree with Steve G. A little orange peel or likewise minor not-perfection can be saved and turn out just beautiful with wet-sanding and polishing.

But why not strive to learn how to paint well anyway?

Edited Tuesday at 10:05 PM by Ace-Garageguy

[Donny]

14 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

You can save yourself a whole bunch of heartache if you approach the possibility of a good paint job from the perspective that a truly “show quality” paint job doesn’t necessarily require you to be a professional painter.

You can either commit to the long game, (sometimes a VERY long game) and continue to chase the elusive perfect paint job directly from the airbrush or can, which might take years of experimentation and practice, or you can follow the example of those of us who capitulated years ago, but then realized that you can achieve the same, or often even superior results with nothing more than the right materials and some elbow grease.

I don’t even try to get a perfect paint job anymore.

It’s not worth the aggravation to me.

I would much rather spend a couple of extra hours cutting and polishing and be pretty much assured of a magnificent paint finish, than cross my fingers and pray that everything goes exactly as I had hoped, which it almost never does.

If you can spray a mediocre finish, and then operate a sanding pad or paper, along with some liquid polishes, you can be producing superior finishes over many that rely on their spraying expertise straight from the can in a minuscule fraction of the time that it will likely take you to reach that level.

You’ll be able to put your paint jobs right next to the best painters out there, and nobody will ever know the difference.

 

 

 

 

Steve

Thanks Steve, some really nice looking paint jobs there. I appreciate your comments and advice. Although it's in some cases acrylic paint, and not automotive paint, the polish is the same, car polish, or is there special polish for models? 

[Donny]

21 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I have found it's usually much easier and gives better results to strip any seriously bad paintwork and start over.

There's plenty of info on this site regarding safe stripping.

Thanks Bill

[StevenGuthmiller]

 

But why not strive to learn how to paint well anyway?
 

Of course!

But as I’m sure that we’re all aware that most likely, the vast majority of modelers who get frustrated with building model cars do so due to paint difficulties.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

 

 

 

Steve

[Donny]

3 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

 

 

But why not strive to learn how to paint well anyway?
 

Of course!

But as I’m sure that we’re all aware that most likely, the vast majority of modelers who get frustrated with building model cars do so due to paint difficulties.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

 

 

 

Steve

Guess I'm up for a lot of trial-and-error Steve

[peteski]

4 hours ago, Donny said:

Thanks Steve, some really nice looking paint jobs there. I appreciate your comments and advice. Although it's in some cases acrylic paint, and not automotive paint, the polish is the same, car polish, or is there special polish for models? 

Modeler's paint nomenclature is another source of confusion and often inaccurate or ambiguous.   For example what do you mean by "acrylic" paint?  Do you mean organic-solvent (read: stinky) acrylic enamel or lacquer, or what modelers colloquially call the low-odor water-based acrylic enamels?

Edited Wednesday at 02:31 AM by peteski

[Donny]

5 minutes ago, peteski said:

Modeler's paint nomenclature is another source of confusion and often inaccurate or ambiguous.   For example what do you mean by "acrylic" paint?  Do you mean organic-solvent (read: stinky) acrylic enamel or lacquer, or what modelers colloquially call the low-odor water-based acrylic enamels?

I guess as from MRR stuff, that I have used, I'm really only familiar with the water-based acrylics. Sorry to show my ignorance, but I didn't know there was a solvent based acrylic paint. Think I need to go back to trade school and bone up on this stuff.

Don

[peteski]

9 minutes ago, Donny said:

I guess as from MRR stuff, that I have used, I'm really only familiar with the water-based acrylics. Sorry to show my ignorance, but I didn't know there was a solvent based acrylic paint. Think I need to go back to trade school and bone up on this stuff.

Don

It is not really your fault, but I find that having at least some knowledge about chemicals and coatings I use on my models makes me a better modeler. Actually, I think that hobby paint manufacturers are to blame for getting modelers on the path of calling all water-based paints "Acrylics", even tho acrylic binder is also use in organic-solvent-based paints.

Wikipedia has some fairly easily digestible (to a non-chemist modeler like me) info about paint coatings. It breaks down the paint's components and also describes various types of paints.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint
Of course there are also hybrid-type paints like Tamiya's X line of paints which use alcohols as solvent but you can still clean it up with water.

While I do use the water-based acrylic enamel paints for certain applications, I stay away from them when painting car bodies where high gloss is desired.  Water-based acrylic enamels in my experience don't dry (and cure) as hard as the "stinky" paints, so different regiment of sanding/polishing will be in order.  I suspect someone will chime in with their experience.

[Ace-Garageguy]

43 minutes ago, Donny said:

 ...but I didn't know there was a solvent based acrylic paint.

Acrylic lacquer, for instance, was used by GM and other manufacturers in the early 1960s through the '80s, as well as collision repair. It's still available in some automotive refinish, restoration, and touchup products.

Acrylic enamel was used by manufacturers and was very popular for all-over repaints as well as collision repair because it slicked out to a nice gloss if shot by a competent painter, and dried much faster and was more durable than the earlier alkyd or "synthetic" enamels. It's also still available.

These are both "solvent based acrylic" paints, but the solvents, though somewhat similar, are NOT interchangeable.

EDIT: There's also acrylic urethane, yet another "solvent based acrylic" paint type.

EDIT 2: There is a huge amount of misleading, contradictory, and just flat wrong info about all these coatings on the web. I've been working with them professionally for over 5 decades, and though I am by no means an expert, I know baloney and made-up gibberish when I read it.

Be very careful about what you believe, because most internet "experts", including AI, aren't.

Edited Wednesday at 03:28 AM by Ace-Garageguy

[Donny]

2 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Acrylic lacquer, for instance, was used by GM and other manufacturers in the early 1960s through the '80s, as well as collision repair. It's still available in some automotive refinish, restoration, and touchup products.

Acrylic enamel was used by manufacturers and was very popular for all-over repaints as well as collision repair because it slicked out to a nice gloss if shot by a competent painter, and dried much faster and was more durable than the earlier alkyd or "synthetic" enamels. It's also still available.

These are both "solvent based acrylic" paints, but the solvents, though somewhat similar, are NOT interchangeable.

EDIT: There's also acrylic urethane, yet another "solvent based acrylic" paint type.

EDIT 2: There is a huge amount of misleading, contradictory, and just flat wrong info about all these coatings on the web. I've been working with them professionally for over 5 decades, and though I am by no means an expert, I know baloney and made-up gibberish when I read it.

Be very careful about what you believe, because most internet "experts", including AI, aren't.

Thanks Bill, really appreciate you taking the time to explain this. Is lacquer or enamel best for model cars, for me probably lacquer as I'm learning how to apply paints

[Donny]

I was watching a guy on the 'net doing a painting demo on a model, he put hardener in the paint, can't remember why he said he did it, I think he said it cured quicker??

[Cool Hand]

@Donny  have you seen this channel ?? . Great source for information about all different paints for the hobby.

https://youtube.com/@barbatosrex9473?si=zn_XiJvduLWdwygk

 

[NOBLNG]

7 hours ago, Donny said:

Thanks Bill, really appreciate you taking the time to explain this. Is lacquer or enamel best for model cars, for me probably lacquer as I'm learning how to apply paints

I am no paint expert, but I prefer lacquers. They dry quick and can be re-coated pretty much anytime. My advice for a newbie would be to stick to paints and primers made for hobbyists. You didn’t say where you paint, apartment, house, garage? If you have a space where you could use an airbrush, it opens up a whole lot of paint options that aren’t available in rattle cans. That said…yes you can get excellent results from rattle cans.

[Bainford]

8 hours ago, Donny said:

 Is lacquer or enamel best for model cars, for me probably lacquer as I'm learning how to apply paints

I, too, would recommend lacquer. Great results, fast drying, easy application, an un-ending assortment of colours, and repairable. 

Enamels and acrylics are good too, though, after some trials, I (personally) no longer use Acrylics for car bodies. Many others do however, and achieve good results. I do like enamels; good shine and user friendly. Thin them with lacquer thinner to improve drying time and surface hardness, but they still require a lot of time to cure/dry, even in a dehydrator, and can be more susceptible to runs & sags during application. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

23 hours ago, Donny said:

Thanks Steve, some really nice looking paint jobs there. I appreciate your comments and advice. Although it's in some cases acrylic paint, and not automotive paint, the polish is the same, car polish, or is there special polish for models? 

There are polishes designed for use on models, as there are many that are designed for 1:1 automotive applications.

If you use paints that are designed for use on real cars, you can use any type of polish that you wish.

 

Of course my suggestion is to polish the clear coats applied over the color and not the color itself for a number of reasons.

 

Myself, I use polishing pads from Micro-Mesh, followed by liquid polishes from Novus, and finish with a light polish with an automotive scratch and swirl remover, and it never fails me.

 

 

As I said, I will never consider myself a great painter, possibly not even a very good one, but the results speak for themselves.

The final destination is what is important.

How you get there is meaningless in my opinion.

 

By the way, the red '62 Chrysler and black '60 Mercury that I posted earlier were both sprayed entirely with spray cans from primer to clear coat, (all Duplicolor) and then cut and polished to perfection.

You can spend a number of hours cutting and polishing, but it's up to the individual whether or not they consider it worth the effort, or if they would rather just shoot and hope.

 

A few more examples of models sprayed entirely with Duplicolor lacquers, and then polished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Edited Wednesday at 09:32 PM by StevenGuthmiller

[Dave G.]

I can't help but think of this mix: lacquers/enamels/organic solvents/ apartment living ? If you can overcome that combo, mitigate the odors, then fine. But there are ways to get lacquer/enamel like results from waterborne or alcohol acrylic paints too. I just don't know if you have access to the materials. Or access at an affordable rate for that matter.

 

 

 

[Donny]

4 hours ago, Dave G. said:

I can't help but think of this mix: lacquers/enamels/organic solvents/ apartment living ? If you can overcome that combo, mitigate the odors, then fine. But there are ways to get lacquer/enamel like results from waterborne or alcohol acrylic paints too. I just don't know if you have access to the materials. Or access at an affordable rate for that matter.

 

 

 

Thanks Dave, everything helps. Right now I'm reading posts and videos to get as much info as possible. I'm hoping one day to get the time to build a kit. LOL

Don

[Donny]

8 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

There are polishes designed for use on models, as there are many that are designed for 1:1 automotive applications.

If you use paints that are designed for use on real cars, you can use any type of polish that you wish.

 

Of course my suggestion is to polish the clear coats applied over the color and not the color itself for a number of reasons.

 

Myself, I use polishing pads from Micro-Mesh, followed by liquid polishes from Novus, and finish with a light polish with an automotive scratch and swirl remover, and it never fails me.

 

 

As I said, I will never consider myself a great painter, possibly not even a very good one, but the results speak for themselves.

The final destination is what is important.

How you get there is meaningless in my opinion.

 

By the way, the red '62 Chrysler and black '60 Mercury that I posted earlier were both sprayed entirely with spray cans from primer to clear coat, (all Duplicolor) and then cut and polished to perfection.

You can spend a number of hours cutting and polishing, but it's up to the individual whether or not they consider it worth the effort, or if they would rather just shoot and hope.

 

A few more examples of models sprayed entirely with Duplicolor lacquers, and then polished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve, I'm taking everything onboard. That '60 Mercury simply blew me away - beautiful, and the Bonneville too, something about black, love it. Thanks again.

Don

[Donny]

13 hours ago, NOBLNG said:

I am no paint expert, but I prefer lacquers. They dry quick and can be re-coated pretty much anytime. My advice for a newbie would be to stick to paints and primers made for hobbyists. You didn’t say where you paint, apartment, house, garage? If you have a space where you could use an airbrush, it opens up a whole lot of paint options that aren’t available in rattle cans. That said…yes you can get excellent results from rattle cans.

Thanks mate. I paint in a spare "area" at the back of the house, a bit like a family room, it has a large sliding door that opens to the outside, also a window, but it does open into other parts of the house. I have an airbrush and with the spray booth seems to work okay, of course I'm only spraying water-based acrylics for model railroad scenery - laser printed buildings and the like. Not sure how fumy the lacquers are. Thanks again

Don 

[Donny]

14 hours ago, Cool Hand said:

@Donny  have you seen this channel ?? . Great source for information about all different paints for the hobby.

https://youtube.com/@barbatosrex9473?si=zn_XiJvduLWdwygk

 

Thanks Luke, I'll go have a look. I have had a look at a couple of other vids of Barbatosrex's but not about paint.

Don

[Donny]

15 hours ago, Cool Hand said:

@Donny  have you seen this channel ?? . Great source for information about all different paints for the hobby.

https://youtube.com/@barbatosrex9473?si=zn_XiJvduLWdwygk

 

Thanks, no Luke, but just had a look, hellavlot of info there. Have to take it in a bit at a time. 

[Dave G.]

6 hours ago, Donny said:

Thanks Dave, everything helps. Right now I'm reading posts and videos to get as much info as possible. I'm hoping one day to get the time to build a kit. LOL

Don

Ya, the time is often a matter of prioritizing or substitution of 30 min a day for instance. You set the time limit, I just tossed 30min in there ! Or for that matter the per day part might be twice a week etc. And if there truly isn't a lot of time then stick with curbside builds to start with.

The purpose of my other post was to lead into saying, you can get hand rubbed lacquer results from waterborne acrylic paints. IE there are products and ways to do that, but it's going to be more airbrush oriented.

As far as rattle cans, probably most folks here started with them. Back around 1958 or 59 I started with brushes, within a year or so moved to Testors rattle can, then Pactra ( now gone). I painted models with those till 1973 when I got my first airbrush. I still keep two of my last spray can shot cars, Dual cowl Duesenberg and a 28 Lincoln roadster. Both need a little fresh up at this point some 50 years later. But the paint was display quality from rattle cans.

At that, the airbrush came in at that time more for model train builds back then. But has been now applied to cars since. I use all four mediums, lacquer, enamels, alcohol acrylics and waterborne acrylics. I'm at home with any of them at this point.

Edited Thursday at 09:52 AM by Dave G.

[Donny]

43 minutes ago, Dave G. said:

Ya, the time is often a matter of prioritizing or substitution of 30 min a day for instance. You set the time limit, I just tossed 30min in there ! Or for that matter the per day part might be twice a week etc. And if there truly isn't a lot of time then stick with curbside builds to start with.

The purpose of my other post was to lead into saying, you can get hand rubbed lacquer results from waterborne acrylic paints. IE there are products and ways to do that, but it's going to be more airbrush oriented.

As far as rattle cans, probably most folks here started with them. Back around 1958 or 59 I started with brushes, within a year or so moved to Testors rattle can, then Pactra ( now gone). I painted models with those till 1973 when I got my first airbrush. I still keep two of my last spray can shot cars, Dual cowl Duesenberg and a 28 Lincoln roadster. Both need a little fresh up at this point some 50 years later. But the paint was display quality from rattle cans.

At that, the airbrush came in at that time more for model train builds back then. But has been now applied to cars since. I use all four mediums, lacquer, enamels, alcohol acrylics and waterborne acrylics. I'm at home with any of them at this point.

Yes, the paint thing is going to take a bit for me to learn and get right. Assembly, not so much, well straight forward stuff, I won't be into kit bashing or swapping stuff from one model to another like I've seen some of the guys doing, right now I'll be happy getting a kit together and looking good/okay. The paint I'll have to work on. I bought a sheet of stuff that looks like what the cars are made from, or close enough to do the job I hope, the idea being I can use my airbrush to try the different paints, and practice density etc, also laying it down, rather than mucking up a model trying to see if I got it right. Also the type, lacquer, acrylic. I've not used alcohol-based acrylics, so that will be something new. I came across a guy who puts hardener in his paint, something else I didn't know about. I think he said  the paint won't dry and/or cure without it, or something to that effect.  40/50 years is a long time between drinks, and so much has changed, I can't even remember what paints I used back then, and of course it was rattle cans. Love the airbrush, but that also is a learning curve. I've sprayed cars, (real ones), so when I bought the airbrush I thought, yeah I know how to do this - wrong, completely different. Anyway, I've prattled on too long, thanks for the advice, always welcome. 😊

Don

[Dave G.]

Model styrene, plastic sheeting, old soda bottles ( bottles being another popular test bed, as it gives shape), may or may not be the same materials ( probably not). What connects the dots is primer. Primer lays the ground work in the paint system, goes to those substrates. Color paints goes to primer, where they may or may not do well directly to the substrate. Even some primers go down well to most substrates but are created to stick to model styrene best. I've tested this in both scratch testing and blue painters tape pull tests ( full strength tape, not de tacked).