Views on contest classes and 3d printing

[stavanzer]

21 hours ago, Muncie said:

Absolutely, I can remember some things that happened at shows where it almost seems that the rules were created and the name was engraved on the trophies before the doors opened to the show.  Pretty shaky and I'm sure it discouraged a lot of people...  There should always be room. 

Been There, Done that. The worst was a Semi-Local IPMS show in a city about 2 hours north.

Nothing any of the 6 of us, from our Club, placed. Yet we saw members of the Hosting Club collect Multiple Trophies. The favoritism was so blatant that we have never gone back.

I don't know why the Older Men who run these show do this. (and it is Always, a cabal of older men) Is that little Trophy worth that much to your fragile ego? 

This Phenomenon is so common that it helped to create the Legendary NNL Shows.  

3D printing is foreign to me. I'm not sure I trust it yet. But, I like the results, and I am buying (and using) more of it. If I live long enough, I'll wind up building a complete 3D kit. (the Tucker Sno-Cat) So, the rest of the Old Men (I'm 62) can just get on board this train.

The Rules for OOB or Box Stock are GOING to change. The only question now, is how.... 

[niteowl7710]

41 minutes ago, stavanzer said:

The Rules for OOB or Box Stock are GOING to change. The only question now, is how.... 

As someone who's won several awards, including class wins with OOB models in the standard categories the vehicle would otherwise normally go into...I don't even see the point of Box Stock/OOB except to give more $3 plaques away to people who want to category shop their build into something that think would make their model more likely to win. 

At the local IPMS Chapter - of which I am the Head Automotive Judge - we used the Open System (Gold/Silver/Bronze) and our Automotive Categories are...Automotive. It's so nice not to have 29eleventy7 Categories where people win stuff just for being one of 3 people who decided to build 1/32 & Smaller Competiton or some such nonsense.

[Ace-Garageguy]

6 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

At the local IPMS Chapter - of which I am the Head Automotive Judge - we used the Open System (Gold/Silver/Bronze) and our Automotive Categories are...Automotive. It's so nice not to have 29eleventy7 Categories where people win stuff just for being one of 3 people who decided to build 1/32 & Smaller Competiton or some such nonsense.

Interesting.

If there's just one category, I frankly have zero problem with full 3D projects on a par with Bill Cunningham's work competing.

Adopting and mastering new technology to build better models is part of the hobby. 

ONE category makes the contest about THE ONE BEST MODEL, period.

My being able to design and machine my own parts on my miniature lathes and mills shouldn't disqualify me, any more than someone who's embraced 3D printing and spent the bucks and effort to turn out spectacular print-fabbed work should disqualify him.

BUT...having a multiple-class structure that pits models that are the result of the exercise of exceptional skills and the expenditure of exceptional money against groups of average people who just can't operate at that level is where the problem comes in.

Again...nobody ever raced factory sedans in the same class as Can Am cars.

EDIT: Just a thought. Maybe, like the Can Am series did, establish an "unlimited" class where anything goes, to allow those who are at the absolute top of the pile to compete head-to-head, rather than discouraging and alienating lower tier modelers who see 3D and extensive machine work, etc. as being "unbeatable".

Edited Saturday at 11:06 PM by Ace-Garageguy
punctiliousness

[StevenGuthmiller]

I think it might be pretty simple.

Create a 3D print category.

If the model has major components that are printed, (Meaning other than a few minor detail pieces such as wheels, carburetor or other small components) it can compete with other similarly constructed models.

Makes sense to me.

They often have separate categories for large scale, small scale, etc.

One more category isn’t going to make a difference.

The only problem might be that you wouldn’t really want to create separate print categories for every genre or class, so you’re printed ‘57 Mercury might have to compete with Sherman tanks, P51 Mustangs and fantasy subjects, but being as the sky is the limit with 3-D printing detail, I think that’s absolutely fair.

In all honesty, it seems more fair than competing against a promo based AMT 1961 Ford.

 

 

Steve

Edited Saturday at 05:19 PM by StevenGuthmiller

[StevenGuthmiller]

42 minutes ago, niteowl7710 said:

As someone who's won several awards, including class wins with OOB models in the standard categories the vehicle would otherwise normally go into...I don't even see the point of Box Stock/OOB except to give more $3 plaques away to people who want to category shop their build into something that think would make their model more likely to win. 

At the local IPMS Chapter - of which I am the Head Automotive Judge - we used the Open System (Gold/Silver/Bronze) and our Automotive Categories are...Automotive. It's so nice not to have 29eleventy7 Categories where people win stuff just for being one of 3 people who decided to build 1/32 & Smaller Competiton or some such nonsense.

My question would be, how many categories does the chapter have for their military and aviation subjects?

Having just one automotive category kind of proves my point about the apparent disdain for car modelers at many IPMS events.

They certainly don’t seem to have a problem with “29eleventy7” categories for those genres.

Why isn’t there just one aviation category?

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people win a gold because they were the only “1/48 multi engine prop” entry, or the like.
 

Steve

Edited Saturday at 05:39 PM by StevenGuthmiller

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, stavanzer said:

I don't know why the Older Men who run these show do this. (and it is Always, a cabal of older men) Is that little Trophy worth that much to your fragile ego? 

Well, there’s that, and then sometimes I wonder if it’s just a case of whether or not some of the people that are judging really have any idea of what they’re looking at.

I like to think that it’s more of just a case of inexperience rather than bias, but I’ve absolutely seen the results of one, or possibly both.

 

 

Steve

[stavanzer]

6 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Well, there’s that, and then sometimes I wonder if it’s just a case of whether or not some of the people that are judging really have any idea of what they’re looking at.

I like to think that it’s more of just a case of inexperience rather than bias, but I’ve absolutely seen the results of one, or possibly both.

 

 

Steve

Like You, I've seen both. I think I would call it 60% Bias/40% Not Knowing.

But the ignorant guys are a little easier to understand. The Bias is unforgivable...

[Daddyfink]

6 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Well, there’s that, and then sometimes I wonder if it’s just a case of whether or not some of the people that are judging really have any idea of what they’re looking at.

I like to think that it’s more of just a case of inexperience rather than bias, but I’ve absolutely seen the results of one, or possibly both.

 

 

Steve

Then do what the San Diego Model Car Club did, we took over the Automotive section! Car guys judging cars! 

We range in age and in taste of cars, and being in So Cal, we cover it all. So maybe volunteer at the show to be a judge, just don't judge the categories you might be in and offer advice on how to judge cars. It does not have to be that hard to participate, unless they have a total lock on outsiders participating in their show. We also ask, and encourage, out of town car builders to help us judge. 

Great way to get some experience in judging and seeing what it takes to place in the categories. 

 

[niteowl7710]

6 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

My question would be, how many categories does the chapter have for their military and aviation subjects?

Having just one automotive category kind of proves my point about the apparent disdain for car modelers at many IPMS events.

They certainly don’t seem to have a problem with “29eleventy7” categories for those genres.

Why isn’t there just one aviation category?

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people win a gold because they were the only “1/48 multi engine prop” entry, or the like.
 

Steve

We have Aircraft, Armor, Ships, Automotive, Sci-Fi, Figures, Diorama and Miscellaneous. Period.

When every model is judged itself vs our rubric you don't need a bazillion breakdown categories for any genre since models (and modelers) aren't competing directly against one another like traditional 1/2/3. 

[Perspect Scale Modelworks]

Not that it matters, but I don't see what the problem is. Maybe I'm naive, but I would think that any model entered into a contest would be judged on the quality of the build, not the materials used to make it. Fact is everyone that builds 3d models is not at the same level as Bill Cunningham, just as everyone that builds styrene kits is not at the same level as a Steve Guthmiller or a Ron Hamilton. So the thought that any fully 3d printed model, or a model containing 3d parts, will automatically be superior to an all styrene build is unfounded. There is even a difference in the quality of 3d files being created. Some are much better than others, and a poorly made file will give you a bad print, if it prints at all. Just sounds like more of us old guys clinging to the past and fearing the future.

[Ace-Garageguy]

6 minutes ago, Perspect Scale Modelworks said:

...Just sounds like more of us old guys clinging to the past and fearing the future.

Speak for yourself.

Anyone with a functioning brain is well aware of everything you wrote above that.

The fact remains that no kit-built model is in the same league as Cunningham's work. Period.

Edited yesterday at 12:48 AM by Ace-Garageguy

[Perspect Scale Modelworks]

11 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Speak for yourself.

Anyone with a functioning brain is well aware of everything you wrote above that.

The fact remains that no kit-built model is in the same league as Cunningham's work. Period.

Whoa dude, functioning brain? Feeling OK bro? I always speak for myself, but thanks for the advise. And not all 3d models are in Cunningham's league. And yes, I am an old guy but not one that fears the future.

That's 4 cents now. 

(BTW, not here to fight, just sharing my thoughts)

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, stavanzer said:

Like You, I've seen both. I think I would call it 60% Bias/40% Not Knowing.

But the ignorant guys are a little easier to understand. The Bias is unforgivable...

I suppose I agree, but the result is the same.

Inconsistent judging, which is why I won’t return to some shows.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, Daddyfink said:

Then do what the San Diego Model Car Club did, we took over the Automotive section! Car guys judging cars! 

We range in age and in taste of cars, and being in So Cal, we cover it all. So maybe volunteer at the show to be a judge, just don't judge the categories you might be in and offer advice on how to judge cars. It does not have to be that hard to participate, unless they have a total lock on outsiders participating in their show. We also ask, and encourage, out of town car builders to help us judge. 

Great way to get some experience in judging and seeing what it takes to place in the categories. 

 

That’s exactly what took place at one of the larger IPMS functions in my area.

The same guys who put on the local NNL take care of the judging at said show, and they do an exemplary job!

Stand up guys who know what they’re doing.

The same cannot be said about some other shows that I have attended.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, niteowl7710 said:

We have Aircraft, Armor, Ships, Automotive, Sci-Fi, Figures, Diorama and Miscellaneous. Period.

When every model is judged itself vs our rubric you don't need a bazillion breakdown categories for any genre since models (and modelers) aren't competing directly against one another like traditional 1/2/3. 

Sounds fair.

But I think you’re probably the exception rather than the rule.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Perspect Scale Modelworks said:

Not that it matters, but I don't see what the problem is. Maybe I'm naive, but I would think that any model entered into a contest would be judged on the quality of the build, not the materials used to make it. Fact is everyone that builds 3d models is not at the same level as Bill Cunningham, just as everyone that builds styrene kits is not at the same level as a Steve Guthmiller or a Ron Hamilton. So the thought that any fully 3d printed model, or a model containing 3d parts, will automatically be superior to an all styrene build is unfounded. There is even a difference in the quality of 3d files being created. Some are much better than others, and a poorly made file will give you a bad print, if it prints at all. Just sounds like more of us old guys clinging to the past and fearing the future.

Of course everybody is not at the same level.

That’s why they have judging.

But don’t you think that it makes sense to judge based on similar metrics used to complete competing models?

Part of the reason why there are often separate categories for 1/25th 1/24th scale, large scale and small scale is because detailing larger scales is much easier than detailing smaller scales.

If we’re judging based on “building” prowess, and not so much parts manufacture, it makes sense to me that advantages based on skills that aren’t traditionally required to build a model should be addressed in some manner.

It makes sense to me to let 3-D printed models compete with other 3-D printed models.

Don’t know what could possibly be wrong with that.

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Perspect Scale Modelworks said:

Whoa dude, functioning brain? Feeling OK bro? I always speak for myself, but thanks for the advise. And not all 3d models are in Cunningham's league. And yes, I am an old guy but not one that fears the future.

That's 4 cents now. 

(BTW, not here to fight, just sharing my thoughts)

I don’t think people fearing the future is necessarily the case.

Some of us just see it as a matter of fairness.

I’ve done quite well against 3-D printed models with traditional building materials and methods, but that’s not to say that there is not plenty of disconcertion among modelers over this subject.

So why not address the situation, and end the anxiety by just simply creating a separate category for 3-D printed models?

Seems like a pretty simple solution.

 

 

Steve

 

[Bucky]

3 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

We have Aircraft, Armor, Ships, Automotive, Sci-Fi, Figures, Diorama and Miscellaneous. Period.

When every model is judged itself vs our rubric you don't need a bazillion breakdown categories for any genre since models (and modelers) aren't competing directly against one another like traditional 1/2/3. 

I respectfully disagree with this concept. To me, this is saying that a fully customized 1/25 scale '58 Chevy is lumped in with an OOB(out-of-box) 1/25 scale '65 Mustang, 1/25 scale Peterbilt with trailer, 1/8 scale Jaguar XKE, and any other automobile, regardless of scale that doesn't fit a military theme. I'm assuming this would also include any full model that popped out of a 3D printer. This might seem a little more fair if all military subjects were entered into one category-Military. Submarines, battleships, tanks, half-tracks, Migs, Zeros, etc. would be a way to do it. And figures could be entered into whichever category they represent, such as a standing soldier, or bust of a soldier would go in the military category. Fantasy figures would go into Sci-Fi, Bo and Luke Duke figures would go into automotive...

And are the automotive and military dioramas competing against one another? 

Just wondering out loud, as I actually live out of range of just about any model show or contest. 

[Joe Handley]

10 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

Well, there’s that, and then sometimes I wonder if it’s just a case of whether or not some of the people that are judging really have any idea of what they’re looking at.

I like to think that it’s more of just a case of inexperience rather than bias, but I’ve absolutely seen the results of one, or possibly both.

 

 

Steve

Funny you mention this, I had a couple builds at the local IPMS show, one of which was that ‘69 Charger Convertible I built from a R2/MPC General Lee snap kit with a couple parts from the Revell ‘68 Charger kits and resin repop parts from the MPC ‘68 Cuda and Coronet R/T Convertible started in 2019 and completed in late 2023-early 2024 due to procrastination. They didn’t lock us out of the rooms right away, but some of the judges were walking around looking at the builds. Dad was wandering around listening to them and when they got to my Charger, Dad heard one say “Oh, that’s just a Charger Convertible, I see those all the time.” Then there was another build, an aircraft carrier that the guy had spent a decade building and detailing, including the aircraft on deck. Dad had been really impressed with that build and thought it was a fantastic build, but apparently these judges apparently just blew it off compared another boat build that wasn’t on par with the other one I mentioned.

To be honest, I’m not sure which pissed Dad off more, the boat judgement or the guy claiming the he has seen Charger convertible builds all of the time………despite there never being a Charger convertible ever offered by pre and post bankruptcy Chrysler Corp,  Daimler-Chrysler, Chrysler LLC, FCA, or Stellantis and not being a whole lot of builds/conversions in any scale that I could find online.
 

[Joe Handley]

My 2 cents on 3D parts……

If it’s a box stock build, that always seems like it’s a styrene kit only,l as I wouldn’t consider resin kits as such either.

When it comes to 3D printed parts, I really don’t see those and being any different that buying or making your own photo etched, resin cast and/or machined parts for classes where multimedia parts are allowed. That to me is something where in the end, it should be quality of the build over the parts used. I also don’t feel that the lack of aftermarket/multimedia parts in a build should be a detriment to the judging of the model either.

[niteowl7710]

2 hours ago, Bucky said:

And are the automotive and military dioramas competing against one another? 

As I said, the models are "competing" against our judging rubric, not against each other. So subject matter of the diorama is irrelevant. The only "head to head" competition if you want to call it that would be for the overall Best Diorama.

Given our Best of Show in 2024 was a Gunpla and in 2025 it was a giant scratch built Sci-Fi ship, it's quite possible an automotive diorama - if done better than all the others - could certainly win Best Dio.

That's the beauty of the Open System, it rewards excellence, and recognizes all good work. If you took a populated Auto Class like Factory Stock or Competiton Drag are you telling me that there in fact only 3 models in a class with 18-25 entries that deserve recognition?

[bobthehobbyguy]

23 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Adopting and mastering new technology to build better models is part of the hobby. 

ONE category makes the contest about THE ONE BEST MODEL, period.

My being able to design and machine my own parts on my miniature lathes and mills shouldn't disqualify me, any more than someone who's embraced 3D printing and spent the bucks and effort to turn out spectacular print-fabbed work should disqualify him.

Exactly. 3d printing is just another tool to be used. Not every tool is suited for every task so the more tools you can use offers the ability to choose the best tool for the job .  6Now is the time to adjust the rules to accommodate this new technology.

Box stock category was established when all of the aftermarket products. It allowed builders to just compete on skills.

The 

9 hours ago, niteowl7710 said:

That's the beauty of the Open System, it rewards excellence, and recognizes all good work. If you took a populated Auto Class like Factory Stock or Competiton Drag are you telling me that there in fact only 3 models in a class with 18-25 entries that deserve recognition?

An interesting idea.

[Codi]

I always enjoy these types of thought provoking threads.  I have to say that Bills (Ace) views and Steve's as well are more in line with my own. I'm personally in awe of those that can create their own CAD files and print out master pieces AND detail them to the degree that someone such as Bill Cunningham can.  An arrow in the quiver is what I've always said and if you have that skill set as part of your expertise, you're one talented individual.  Ace's idea of maybe having an "expert" category at any model show is intriguing but I'm not sure who makes the determination as to who says it's "expert" or not.......is it the judges or is it the model entrant themselves?    I'd personally make it the entrants option/decision as I think most that would enter such a category aren't concerned about winning but competing.....that way everyone else has a shot too at their given category of earning a place/trophy perhaps.   

I also like Steve's idea of a dedicated 3D category (90%+ ?  3D printed being the requirement perhaps?)  I also wouldn't have an issue of any dedicated 3D crafted model being part of the "expert" category.   So Bill Cunninghams models could be entered in the expert category as an example.  My point, there are those at a certain level of capability that are just going to stand out no matter the medium......it would be fun, just my opinion, to compete against others of a similar skill set.  It gives everyone something to possibly strive for and to one day compete against in such a category.  In closing, I'm a realist too and there WILL be those that won't be satisfied regardless and I can see wherein it might open up a can of worms and the complaining will commence.  More open discussion and thought might bring some future contest to consider the best of the ideas shared on this thread and give it a shot.  Cheers everyone, tim 

[meechum68]

As one who uses resin to enhance kits I am working on, I wouldn't mind seeing something like: 

Modified builds using resin.

1/2 resin builds.

Full resin Builds. 

 

Of course those are just a very basic classes, they could be expanded upon with more solidification. 

And I love this topic as others have stated.  So many well thought out ideas and points. 

Oh and this is why I love this forum, the great thought building and great tips.

 

[StevenGuthmiller]

I’m not the type to shy away from a challenge no wonder how much 3-D printing that I need to compete against, but in some cases it certainly can give you an unfair advantage.

I remember seeing a printed engine compartment being made available for I believe a mustang some time back.

It was an amazing piece with every nut, bolt, hose and line represented, far outpacing anything that is ever likely to be able to be done with conventional building methods.

So in the end, should it at least be something that needs to be brought to a judges attention when you have an engine bay that may have just been purchased, painted and installed, and still over shadows one that may have had to have been meticulously detailed by the modelers own hand through hours and hours of engineering, parts swapping and scratch building?

I think that 3-D printing is a wonderful thing, but I also feel that as these things become more and more readily available, there should be some mechanism to insure that the individual who goes to the extremes to try to compete with assemblies that can be simply purchased and installed, is still recognized for his effort.

 

 

Steve

Edited 15 hours ago by StevenGuthmiller