oldman23 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Hi Gang I'm working on an AMT 62 Impala SS and while working on the interior I kept saying to myself something isn't right. I wasn't sure so I bought a door panel set from a very good aftermarket company and they didn't look right either. WELL I figured it out The Door handle and arm rests are upside down IT looks like they put the left side on the right door and the right side on the left door Here are some pictures. This is not only a hard or nearly impossible fix but I can't understand why they let it slide release after release. Tell me what you think about it Ernie This is the 1:1 prototype the large side of the armrest is on the bottom It's the same on all Impalas from 61 through 64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Zoom Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Surprise! Models aren't perfect. They never have been, never will be. This is the first I've heard of this problem. Looks more like the door release is upside down, the armrest looks okay. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things. This kind of thing has been common on more models than you can imagine. Models were a cheap commodity up until a couple years ago. Surprising there weren't more problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george 53 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Ernie, the armrest DOES look ok that way. If it really bothers you, couldn't you just cut the flat portion off the handle,and just switch sides? If you reattach it to your handle just flip it so it's on right. Just a thought, but maybe it'll help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf15 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Ernie. Glue a small square piece of Plastisruct over the existing piece , no one will ever know the diffrence ! Believe me , this is just a minor bump in the road. Wait until you start playing with some of the vintage kits , you'll end up in the round rubber room with the rest of us ! The Old Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 You can also see that the "kickup" of the chrome strip is much more steep on the real car (more like a 45 degree angle) and the upper horizontal strip is much farther up on the door... there's much more space between the trim strip and the top of the armrest. Also the vertical size of the "squares" on the door panel are the same in the two horizontal rows on the real car, and totally different on the model. Why do such obvious mistakes keep appearing on models? Attention to detail is obviously missing. Seems kind of strange that a company that's producing a "scale model" wouldn't pay more attention to what they're doing. If we can all see the mistakes, why couldn't the people who created the kit see them? Sure, you can brush it off and say that models have always been inaccurate in one way or another... but the bigger question is... why??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle F Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Sure, you can brush it off and say that models have always been inaccurate in one way or another... but the bigger question is... why??? Yeah, that sure is a stumper... How in the world could a thing like that happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I assume you're being sarcastic. But really... if your job is to create an accurate scale representation of the real thing, why not do that? I realize we're not talking world peace or the cure for cancer here... we're talking about that tiny little sliver of the world that all of us share an interest in. That being the case, and realizing that our little group here is totally insignificant in the "big picture," I still ask why can't they just get it right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher61 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 That door handle didn't bother me as much as the windshield wiper pivots being located in the wrong place! How do you miss that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemodeler Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Wow, never noticed that one before. I agree, you would think someone would have caught that one. Almost as bad as those mysterious typographical errors that pop up in articles in magazines/newspapers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplehornies Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 It probably gets by because the person in China thats making the mold has never even seen a 62 Impala SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Zoom Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 I assume you're being sarcastic. But really... if your job is to create an accurate scale representation of the real thing, why not do that? I realize we're not talking world peace or the cure for cancer here... we're talking about that tiny little sliver of the world that all of us share an interest in. That being the case, and realizing that our little group here is totally insignificant in the "big picture," I still ask why can't they just get it right? If they have unlimited time and unlimited resources they could. They also have to get a product to market within a budget and with time constraints and not everyone involved knows every nut and bolt about every car...especially the Chinese. Don't forget, AMT kits are/were a cheap commodity item, not in the same league as models from mostly overseas brands. They're not fine pieces of sculpture, they're a box full of injection molded plastic parts. Let's just say the mfgs. nitpick to a point and then they gotta get the product out..hopefully w/the fewest screwups. I'm sure nobody here has a clue how nearly impossible it would be to get out a perfect model. The amount of OCD and $ and time back and forth it would take would be staggering. Pocher kits are far from perfect and require a lot of fiddling, so it's assumed that AMT and Revell kits won't ever be perfect either. They usually do the best they can, and sometimes they do fix things on subsequent production runs. They do listen to reasoned critique and they do fix what they can if there's a budget for it. But if/when we nitpick them to death for the littlest of things, we aren't doing ourselves or them any real favors. Seems like we (myself included, I'm not immune to griping about things either ) put the mfgs. up on some sort of imaginary pedestal and expect them to work miracles that probably will never happen. At this point of my life, I concede that I accept more imperfections than I used to. I either live with them, fix them, or don't buy the product, trying to get as minimally upset over whatever it is. Like my models, I'm a work in progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 It probably gets by because the person in China thats making the mold has never even seen a 62 Impala SS. Never seen a picture of one either? Do you figure the guys making the masters are just faking it??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 If they have unlimited time and unlimited resources they could. It takes the same amount of time to carve the door handle on the master upside down as it does to do it the right way, there's no extra $$$ necessary to do it right. It's not about not having the money or time to do things right, that's not the issue... it's about paying attention to what you're doing. And it's not about getting all worked up over trivial things either... nobody is going to lose any sleep over the fact that model X's seat upholstery pattern is all wrong. In the overall scheme of things it doesn't matter a bit. And it's not about perfection or getting every last nut and bolt correct, because that's not possible, or even expected, and was never demanded. All I'm saying, relative importance or impact on the world's well-being aside, is that it's just as time-consuming and expensive to create a master that's wrong as it is to make one that's right. So why not pay a little more attention to what you're doing, and get it more or less correct, understanding the fact that it won't be perfect? Simple request, not unreasonable at all. I really don't see why it's off-base to expect a reasonably accurate kit. The Japanese can do it. Do they have magic powers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman23 Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 Anybody can take any kit and find a bunch of faults with it. These are only a representation of the real thing. I could have built this kit out of the box and had a great looking shelf model. I started this build to be a representation of mine and my wife's favorite car we owned and restored. I bought the Assembly manual and the drawings used by GM showing the overall dimensions of the 1:1 prototype From Impala Bob's to use for reference when I started this build. When things didn't fit right I started digging deeper and started making some changes. Problem is Once I started I couldn't stop myself. The original promo 62 Chevy had the wipers in the right place, for some reason they moved the drivers side wiper and messed that up. The reason the chrome strip on the door is too high up is the model is too short. From the belt line down on the model it is .060 short. In order to get a halfway descent representation of the interior you have to through out the bucket and build it up from the floor. or else the steering wheel sits almost on the front seat. The bucket sits too far to the left anyway causing a gap on the right side when you install the windshield. In order to fix this I moved the right hand kick panel outboard and added material to the end of the dashboard so it would sit in the center of the car. George this is one of the reasons I've been working on this model for 2 years. Along with all the working features I've scratch built. So the model doesn't look out of proportion I removed the chrome below the door and added .040" to the bottom all the way around then replaced the chrome trim and re scribed the doors before removing them. This is one of the reasons the frame never sat all the up under the model. Adding the material didn't make a difference on the front of the car since the bumper would cover the change anyway. The taillights and trunk section was too short to begin with so the .040" really helped redefine the rear view of the model. I have photos with measurements showing before and after shots of what I done. Being I have nothing else to do except play with my models and get my Chemo Treatments I figured what the heck. I still have 8 other models I'm currently working on but not to this extent. I know the door panels are messed up but I'm not going to do much to them. The main reason is I'm not as talented as Harry P. or Tim Boyd or other great artists in our hobby, But I do want it as perfect as I can get it. Maybe I'm asking to much of myself but so far even under a 6x magnifying glass it looks good. Ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Zoom Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Never seen a picture of one either? Do you figure the guys making the masters are just faking it??? Sometimes (Trumpeter Monte Carlo, *cough cough*) I think they do fake it. Or they mis-interpret a photo. Who knows for sure? There's only so many times they're going to revisit the tooling before making some decision to run production or wait longer. There's a lot of missing guidance just do to the fact that there are people from opposite ends of the globe working on the same project. It's one thing if the kit designer has ready access to the tooling shop. Sending all production to China...not good, IMHO...it's only to save a buck, not to make a better product That said, you'll find errors throughout model car history. Even when everyone worked in the same facility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom Zoom Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 All I'm saying, relative importance or impact on the world's well-being aside, is that it's just as time-consuming and expensive to create a master that's wrong as it is to make one that's right. So why not pay a little more attention to what you're doing, and get it more or less correct, understanding the fact that it won't be perfect? Simple request, not unreasonable at all. I really don't see why it's off-base to expect a reasonably accurate kit. The Japanese can do it. Do they have magic powers? Trust me, the Japanese produce plenty of errors themselves. Nobody produces perfect models, everyone produces imperfect models. Give me a set of blueprints and photos or a 1:1 and I could make Gerald Wingrove a blubbering mess if I really wanted to It's frustrating, but it's much easier to say that it's as easy for them to do it right as to do it wrong, but at the end of the day it's not that simple. If you haven't been closely involved in new product development, you have no idea what it takes to get the best product possible out on the first try. It's amazing that they can make 1:1 cars w/so few defects. Models are still a relatively cheap commodity. I'm not saying the model companies should sit back and take whatever the Chinese send over, but I have some empathy for the process because sending the work so far away and expecting it to come back perfect...it's not going to happen without a lot of oversight...which to be honest isn't in the budget for a lowish-volume, supposedly cheap commodity item like a $25 or less model car kit. I found a defect recently on a Revell decal sheet for a model that hadn't hit the market. I sent a note, they informed me that the issue was taken care of, and would be fixed in the second production run, and they thanked me for informing them of the problem. I doubt they have the manpower to go over everything with a fine-tooth comb like they used to. Yes, they do let things slide that really should be improved. And they should be reminded of it...but treating them like idiots isn't the way to grease the skids. At the end of the day...it's only a model. This is just a hobby. Hobbies are for some sort of personal relaxation. Right? Seems like the "easygoing" golden days of modeling from the late 80's through the early 2000's has evolved into an era where there seems to be a bunch of griping about every single kit that comes out. Thanks to the internet, no doubt. Model car guys used to be known to be so much easier-going than the IPMS guys. Nowadays we have plenty of our own rivet counters, ready to pounce at a moment's notice on anything, and everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Most Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 At the end of the day...it's only a model. This is just a hobby. Hobbies are for some sort of personal relaxation. Right? Seems like the "easygoing" golden days of modeling from the late 80's through the early 2000's has evolved into an era where there seems to be a bunch of griping about every single kit that comes out. Thanks to the internet, no doubt. Model car guys used to be known to be so much easier-going than the IPMS guys. Nowadays we have plenty of our own rivet counters, ready to pounce at a moment's notice on anything, and everything. Amen, Bob! Oldman, I was going to say something along those lines, but Bob kinda did it for me. So...uh... would you settle for a hug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman23 Posted July 25, 2009 Author Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) Amen, Bob! Oldman, I was going to say something along those lines, but Bob kinda did it for me. So...uh... would you settle for a hug? Hi Guys I appreciate everything you have to say Bob and you too Chuck. I didn't post it to cause a family feud, I thought it was kind of odd though. AMT's first run promo of the 62 Impala SS was a nice model I have several of them I built over the years and if you look at the interior bucket the door handles are correct. I'm talking about AMT before Matchbox and before Ertle. With all the ownership changing hands it seems some important and some unimportant features disappeared and the quality went down hill. I understand that the industry is suffering because of the Electronic age we live in. Like I said it is only a representation of a real car and I could have built it box stock and had a beautiful shelf model. This kit is better then Lindberg's 61 Impala It is over 2 scale inches under size on the height. I could pick apart every model made if all you want to do is compare them to 1:1 prototypes. For the longest time I couldn't figure out what was bugging me about the interior is all I was saying and when I found it I thought I would share it with everyone else. I'm not griping about it I just fix it or leave it alone This model has been released 4 times that I know of and You would think that someone has found this mistake long before I did. The show judges don't care about the door handles being upside down seeing as how many 62 Impala SS convertibles have placed first over the years, so I'm not changing it on mine. I could hack it off and fix it like George said but their are larger and more pronounced mistakes in the model design that need to be fixed and my time is running short. Thank You Ernie Edited July 25, 2009 by oldman23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldman23 Posted July 26, 2009 Author Share Posted July 26, 2009 Well Mark They done a poor job on it. Ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Anderson Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Sometimes (Trumpeter Monte Carlo, *cough cough*) I think they do fake it. Or they mis-interpret a photo. Who knows for sure? There's only so many times they're going to revisit the tooling before making some decision to run production or wait longer. There's a lot of missing guidance just do to the fact that there are people from opposite ends of the globe working on the same project. It's one thing if the kit designer has ready access to the tooling shop. Sending all production to China...not good, IMHO...it's only to save a buck, not to make a better product That said, you'll find errors throughout model car history. Even when everyone worked in the same facility. At the risk of offending some of the more important nabobs of this hobby, let me add a few pennies worth: For starters, the research and reference work for the Trumpeter Pontiacs, Chevy II's and I believe, the Monte Carlo were done by none other than perhaps the guru of such work, John Mueller. John is not only highly knowledgeable, but is a stickler himself for accuracy in a model kit--but he's not the tooling mockup department, nor has he ever been the toolmaker, never his role in the industry, from what I know. I know it's often very "politically incorrect" to be a critic of those model kits which are considered iconic in our hobby, but every one of them has their screwups, their inaccuracies. It's pretty unpopular when I state that those legendary AMT, JoHan or MPC annuals from the 60's lacked a great deal in the way of accuracy, but deal with it please, they all had them. Dimensions, proportions, and contours were off more than they were correct, when diligently compared to the real thing--but then, those designers and toolmakers were dealing, not with REAL cars, but with such drawings, renderings, and photographs provided by the automakers, most often out of their styling departments, well before the final product (the Ford, Chevy, Plymouth or whatever) hit the showrooms. Thus, the designers and pattern makers in suburban Detroit were working nearly as blindly as their modern-day counterparts in Guandon Province or Hong Kong. Working, as I did, in the industry (albeit for a rather short time), I can only say that product development of a model kit requires not only good references upfront, but serious follow-up all the way through the process. That means intensive reviews of tooling mockups, corrections noted and demanded, and then doing the same with those first test shots out of the molds. That's where Stevens International fell down with the Trumpeter kits--obvious to me that there was very little in the way of followup as tooling mockups were to be reviewed, test shots critiqued. And, the arguments vis-a-vis chinese pattern makers and toolmakers and those who did that work here in North America are exactly the same ones leveled at "Tamigawajimi" out of Shuzoka City, Japan in years past. Trouble is, in every manufacturing company, there is a timeline expected by top management, generally driven by sales. I can't begin to imagine the hair that is being pulled out, prematurely gray, for example, at Boeing, over the continually delayed first flight of their upcoming, cutting edge 787 Dreamliner, for example. Every day that project delays is dollars "down the drain" to the company, with the real fear that Airbus will overtake this project, send it swirling down the drain. It's the same with model car kits, folks! Designers, pattern makers and toolmakers in product development want to put out the best, most accurate model possible, management wants it all to happen at minimal cost, and sales wants it 6 months ago. Guess who is outnumbered there???? Sometimes, the often maligned and cursed licensor steps in, demands that accuracy be the rule, but that doesn't always happen. While I grew to hate most aspects of the job of product development at Playing Mantis, I still would not trade that set of experiences for anything. I had my victories there, I had my bruises and figurative black eyes as well. But, there are many products, including a couple of plastic model car kits, that I can point to with real pride, and say that "I did (or helped do) that one!" Most criticism of model car kits comes from people with little or no experience or understanding of what has to happen to create the kit one sees upon opening the box for the first time, and fewer still understand the often rigid limitations of polystyrene, or the steel tooling needed to produce a model kit. And on that, I rest my case, and will now return to my dark corner, and shut up. Art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Most criticism of model car kits comes from people with little or no experience or understanding of what has to happen to create the kit one sees upon opening the box for the first time, and fewer still understand the often rigid limitations of polystyrene, or the steel tooling needed to produce a model kit. One doesn't need to be a chef in order to recognize that the steak is chewy and overcooked... And in the same vein, one doesn't need to understand the intricacies of toolmaking or the injection-molding process, or retailing, or advertising, or profit and loss statements, to recognize that the door handles on kit "x" are depicted upside-down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hall Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 ...so we have a kit that came out originally over 15 years ago and just now people are making a big deal over a tiny detail that may be wrong? Amazing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 ...so we have a kit that came out originally over 15 years ago and just now people are making a big deal over a tiny detail that may be wrong? Amazing... You're missing the point of the discussion. It's not that kit... it's the larger issue of why mistakes keep making it through to production over and over again in many kits, from many different manufacturers, and why the kitmakers don't (or won't) pay attention to the details. Aren't they supposed to be scale replicas of the real thing? Apart from the fact that some details just can't be reproduced in scale, shouldn't we expect at least basic accuracy, more or less, as far as the things that can be reproduced in scale? How does a newly tooled kit with the gas tank depicted backwards, for example, make it to the shelves? And wouldn't it have been less expensive to get it right the first time than to rework the dies and fix it after the fact??? It's not about any one specific kit, it's about the amount of mistakes that keep showing up time after time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abell82 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 (edited) I just don't see it. Maybe the handle and arm rest are switched side to side, but I just don't see it. What I do see is a poorly rendered version in scale vs. actual . The top of the arm rest is bigger, then the bottom as it should be. The chrome trim is totally incorrect, but I think they merely simplified the trim, and flubbed the handle. Maybe I am wrong though. What I do see, is squares in scale vs rectangles actual pattern. Also, the armrest is too high, and too far back. The window cranks are also too far apart height wise, because they used squares instead of rectangles...actually they seem to alternate using rectangles and squares. (Instead of all rectangles.) I don't see this being as big of a problem as a fuel tank being backwards, or head lights being turned downward, or a grille that is too big, etc. But maybe it's just me. If a model is going to be inaccurate, I would rather the interior be inaccurate then the body, or exterior. But maybe that's just me. Have you ever wondered if the engineers got bored and built in inaccuracies, just to see if people would notice? Kind of like a real car maker putting a pop can inside a frame, to make it rattle? Edited July 26, 2009 by Abell82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry P. Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Have you ever wondered if the engineers got bored and built in inaccuracies, just to see if people would notice? Kind of like a real car maker putting a pop can inside a frame, to make it rattle? Well, you know what they say... never buy a car that was built on a Friday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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