SIDEBAR to "Best/Worst" winter vehicles...

[Jon Cole]

I have always wondered this. The entire northern half of the USA is covered in white cr## for half the year. So why outfit your fleet with big, front engine, RWD cars like the Ford Crown Vic? Yes, some are now running SUV's, but still others are buying Dodge Chargers, which are also RWD.

How do they respond to an emergency in a snowstorm, without becoming the emergency? Any ideas?

[jeffb]

my p71 isnt bad in the snow. but then its got a cop engine, cop brakes and cop tires...

[MikeMc]

I have always wondered this. The entire northern half of the USA is covered in white cr## for half the year. So why outfit your fleet with big, front engine, RWD cars like the Ford Crown Vic? Yes, some are now running SUV's, but still others are buying Dodge Chargers, which are also RWD.

How do they respond to an emergency in a snowstorm, without becoming the emergency? Any ideas?

They learn to drive in snow and ice! MPD used to have chains available for the squads....

its also easier to power slide a rear drive in snow

[Eshaver]

Spyder , First I don't want an argument here but first the Crown Victoria has probably the best brakes of any car I ever drove ! Handleing isn't too darn bad overall either . By the way , I have owned several Corvairs and I would put handleing up with any of them too ! For trunk space , humm ever seen the inside if Chrysler's Dodge Charger trunk ??? Have ya ever had to wrestle out people outta de back seat , I have on tooooo many occasions ! The Crown Victoria is also more roomy too. I'm 6'3". Yes , While I can agree with ya on the roomynes of yer Avitar Corvair, I can't say the same for a Dodge Charger . Besides , the Charger looks and feels like a sardine can and it's electrical system history .............. Humm lets not go there ! Ed Shaver

[Jon Cole]

Spyder , First I don't want an argument here but first the Crown Victoria has probably the best brakes of any car I ever drove ! Handleing isn't too darn bad overall either . By the way , I have owned several Corvairs and I would put handleing up with any of them too ! For trunk space , humm ever seen the inside if Chrysler's Dodge Charger trunk ??? Have ya ever had to wrestle out people outta de back seat , I have on tooooo many occasions ! The Crown Victoria is also more roomy too. I'm 6'3". Yes , While I can agree with ya on the roomynes of yer Avitar Corvair, I can't say the same for a Dodge Charger . Besides , the Charger looks and feels like a sardine can and it's electrical system history .............. Humm lets not go there ! Ed Shaver

Ed, were/are you with law enforcement?

I know the CV is noted for it's cavernous trunk... two or three perps in the back seat, plus two+ in the trunk! The lack of decent trunk space is (AFAIK) one of the big gripes with the Charger. I didn't know about electrical issues, is that a "police equipment" issue only problem?

I would imagine nothing makes yanking a perp out of the back seat easier than a good shot of mace in the face!

The whole "police car" availability issue is about to be shaken up with the pending demise of the CV in 2010. That leaves only Dodge... for now. Chevy is slated to be coming out with a new Caprice, based on a GM/Australia platform.

And it will be interesting to see how far Carbon Motors can go to putting their unique E7 cop car only vehicle to market...

[JamesW]

Crown Vic's are very scarce around here nowadays. Now it's Impalas, Mustangs, Tahoes and Chargers, and even a Corvette and Viper. We still have an occational CV and Caprice, but not many.

[Aaronw]

Law enforcement likes RWD because they hold up better in high speed chases. Apparently FWD is more susceptable to being put out of action when ramming or other manuevers to disable a fleeing vehicle.

I know the California Highway Patrol has specifically mentioned trunk space when they have evaluated other cars.

I'm sure tradition also plays a big part in the use of RWD cars.

[James W]

When I put chains on my Magnum last year, there was no place it could not go.

So flatland police departments should have no trouble with a good set of studded snow tires.

The traction control is a little hard on brake pads however.

[Harry P.]

Studded tires are illegal where I live, even for cops.

Not every car is offered by the manufacturer with a "police package"... CV is one of the few. Couple that with the fact that a CV is roomy, reliable, and that Ford sells CV's to police departments and other fleet users at a real cheap price, and their popularity as police cars is pretty easy to understand.

[gasman]

where I live Pittsburgh Police has used FWD cars since the early 80's, they used H-body Pontiac Bonnevilles and Olds Delta 88's. They've been using FWD Impala's since they came out. I'm assuming there gonna keep the Impala and not switch to the Caprice.

[James Flowers]

Some one mentioned they learned to drive on ice and snow. That is the key word. They know how to drive. It does not matter if you have four wheel drive or front wheel drive,or rear wheel drive. If you can not drive none of them does you any good. Far to many people do not know how to drive on snow,ice or in the rain. Why do you see so many wrecks when we have any kind of bad weather?

[Crusader101]

I had a retired police Crown Vic/retired cab a while back with 246,000 miles and with 4 Goodyear Ultra Grips it was actually the best handling winter car I ever had. With a couple bags of sand in the trunk it was like a little tank when it came to snow and maneuverability.

[RC-Archer]

We have four Dodge Chargers in our ski area and all four of them are AWD. The rest have SUVs like Jeeps, Durangos and Explorers.

Edited December 13, 2009 by RC-Archer

[David G.]

I had a transportation company in the early 90's and we used CV's for our VIP sedans. We bought them with a police package that had beefed-up suspensions to increase weight capacity and improve handling. We got the idea from Super Shutle's Execu-Car branch and bought them from the same source. I'm not entirely sure what Ford did to beef things up, but I could absolutely tell the difference when I drove one without the police kit.

Without the police package, the CV's seemed lighter and more "floaty." They also bounced a bit more and didn't seem to corner as well. As the company was based in Phoenix, I can't comment on snow drivability, but they did seem to do better in the rain than the vanilla CV's. I could also tell the difference by looking at the car from 20 feet away. The ones with the police kit seemed to sit differently, they were just a bit higher than stock and had more of a "square" or solid look to them.

On the fun side of the cop cars topic, a friend in high school had a '72 Plymouth Fury that was retired from the OH Highway Patrol. The speedometer went up to 140 mph and I believe the car would probably get at least close to that. One night in the early '80's at the "Stop-Light Derby" a couple of guys in a new IROC-Z started revving next to us. Before the light changed, my pal started power breaking his Fury. Instead of peeling out, the big Plymouth began to shudder and the body lifted up about six inches on the suspension. The eyes of the guy in the Camaro widened like saucers as he looked over at us. My friend side-stepped the brake when the light changed and the mighty Plymouth launched foreward leaving the Camaro lagging behind in the growing cloud of white tire smoke.

When they caught up to us at the next light, I leaned out the window and yelled, "Dude, you just got beat by a motorhome!"

Ahhh, fun times!

[diymirage]

Some one mentioned they learned to drive on ice and snow. That is the key word. They know how to drive. It does not matter if you have four wheel drive or front wheel drive,or rear wheel drive. If you can not drive none of them does you any good. Far to many people do not know how to drive on snow,ice or in the rain. Why do you see so many wrecks when we have any kind of bad weather?

[of topic rant]

i used to live in a city about 50 miles from my job

all highway miles and from november to march all covered in snow

(midwest michigan, tons of lake effect)

it always amazed me that when i drove to work in the winter about 90% of the wrecks, spin outs and slide offs i saw were big SUVs with AWD

it seems a lot of people get in a car with AWD and think snow, ice and black ice are no longer an issue

apart from not knowing how to drive in a winter wonderland a lot of people seem to overestimate thier vehiles abilities to do so (specifically in the aforementioned SUVs)

[/of topic rant]

[Jon Cole]

[of topic rant]

i used to live in a city about 50 miles from my job

all highway miles and from november to march all covered in snow

(midwest michigan, tons of lake effect)

it always amazed me that when i drove to work in the winter about 90% of the wrecks, spin outs and slide offs i saw were big SUVs with AWD

it seems a lot of people get in a car with AWD and think snow, ice and black ice are no longer an issue

apart from not knowing how to drive in a winter wonderland a lot of people seem to overestimate thier vehiles abilities to do so (specifically in the aforementioned SUVs)

[/of topic rant]

Absolutely true. When we have a winter storm, look what ends up in the snowbank- 9 out of 10 times, it's a 4x4. Next most likely is an awd car. I see it on the TV news also... 4x4s driven by fools who think they can drive at the usual bonzie speed. Then later they b!tch to the tow truck driver what a piece of crappola their truck is!

[MikeMc]

Come down to sunny Florida....look at the "memorials" on the side of our flat straight roads.....I never saw soooo many rollovers anywhere!

[Jon Cole]

I was never schooled on physics, yet even I know that no matter how many wheels are powered, it can break traction on ice. And once it breaks loose, hang on, 'cause the 'Outta Control Express' is taking the occupants for a ride!

[diymirage]

I was never schooled on physics, yet even I know that no matter how many wheels are powered, it can break traction on ice. And once it breaks loose, hang on, 'cause the 'Outta Control Express' is taking the occupants for a ride!

best part of it is, physics will make it a lot easyer to regain control of my rather hefty 3100 pound sedan than of a lightweight 6000 pound SUV

so once it goes, its gone

One winter I got my doors blown off by a Grand Cherokee while driving on a snow covered street. I told my buddy who was with me "he won't make it very far". Right after I said that,the light changed and the two cars in front of him stopped. He slid totally sideways and crammed the first car into the car in front of it and knocked it out into the intersection. That was the first time I ever saw a reverse t-bone! I told my buddy,"see I told you he wouldn't make it very far". He busted out laughing and then I did also. It really wasn't funny,but at the same it was really funny.

(i used to have the exact same horn on my opel kadett)

[Jon Cole]

I just now got back home from a 50 mile trip. I started to snow before we left. Not a lot of snow, but enough to grease up the road.

There is an four-way intersection, it has two left turn lanes in my direction. It stays two lanes all the way through the intersection. When the light turns green, the SUV on the inside tries to beat the box truck around the corner.

FAIL.

Rear on the SUV kicks out, taps the box truck... just enough to crunch the corner above the right taillight.

What a fool. You DON'T gun it in a hard left turn when the road is turning right!

As for my Passat 4motion, I'm really lovin' it. And that's just on all-season tires!

[Aaronw]

Talking to the cops around here who have to staff chain control, they get a lot of people who don't even know how to put their truck into 4 wheel drive, and then there are the ones who bought a 2wd SUV and think they have 4 wheel drive because it is an SUV.

[FordWagonNut]

When I came back for Thanksgiving and Christmas break from college, I worked for a limousine company. They had a fleet of 75 cars & buses. Other than the buses, all where Lincoln Town Cars and Mercury Grand Marquis It was a mix, from four door factory cars, to custom 120 limousines. These are based off the same platform as the Crown Vic.

When I graduated in May of 2008, I could not find a job in my field (still can not), so I went back to limousine driving. All my cars I grew up with were RWD and I grew up around Chicago. The only time I got stuck, four and half ours south west of where I live in the burbs. It was in my Mustang, no snow tires......nuff said.

Someone had said, its all in how you drive. We had storm after storm last winter here in Chicago. It was my first season with the 120, I thought for sure I would get stuck. Never did, she had 340k on the clock, kept me warm, also looked like 1983 barfed up its mirrors, neon strobe lights, and cheep plastic decor. Most nights when the storms would hit, all what was left at 3-4am, snow plows, police, and livery drivers.......

As far as I see it, its not RWD thats a problem, its the operator that makes it into one.

[Joe Handley]

Ed, were/are you with law enforcement?

I know the CV is noted for it's cavernous trunk... two or three perps in the back seat, plus two+ in the trunk! The lack of decent trunk space is (AFAIK) one of the big gripes with the Charger. I didn't know about electrical issues, is that a "police equipment" issue only problem?

I would imagine nothing makes yanking a perp out of the back seat easier than a good shot of mace in the face!

The whole "police car" availability issue is about to be shaken up with the pending demise of the CV in 2010. That leaves only Dodge... for now. Chevy is slated to be coming out with a new Caprice, based on a GM/Australia platform.

And it will be interesting to see how far Carbon Motors can go to putting their unique E7 cop car only vehicle to market...

My sister has an '06 Charger SE with the 3.5 V-6 and Touring Suspension and so far as I know she hasn't had any electrical issues with it. The back seat probably isn't as big as a CV's but it's decent sized. I'm 5'11" and over 390lbs and can fit in the back (uncuffed of course ) with hardly an issue other than cracking my head on the roof every once in a while. She went from a Cherokee Briarwood so the cargo space was a pretty notible loss but the back seat space was a severe improvement over the old XJ platform (I think stuffing a perp back there in one that had the cage could be considered prisoner abuse ) , but apparently it handles quite well even when compared to the XJ, which is quite capable of healthy cornering speeds for a jacked up unibody station wagon with 4wd and two solid axles Now that I take a closer look at that Carbon, it has less back seat space than any XJ Cherokee, if not the 3dr Dodge Shadow I used to own

Talking to the cops around here who have to staff chain control, they get a lot of people who don't even know how to put their truck into 4 wheel drive, and then there are the ones who bought a 2wd SUV and think they have 4 wheel drive because it is an SUV.

You know, I saw something about that in the Cali Mountains this morning on CNN and I could have sworn I saw a late model crew cab Dakota (looked like it might have been 2wd too) that had the front tires chained up and it sounded like a few admitted that they didn't know which end of their vehicle needed to be chained up :ph34r:

Edited December 17, 2009 by Joe Handley

[Chuck Most]

A few of the local cops in my area are switching to Chargers... which can't be much better. There are a couple of state and county Tahoes and Expeditions (respectively), but they are 2wd!

Most of the cops I've spoken with say that they like the RWD because these things get run all over hell's half acre, in any and all road and weather conditions, and it's just plain cheaper and more efficient to maintain a RWD car than a FWD. The fact that the Crown Vic is the last body-on-frame/solid rear axle car... well... anywhere (not counting the Grand Marquis and recently departed Lincoln Town Car) makes it a simple and rugged design that stands up well to the abuse that cops, taxi drivers, and the elderly are known to dish out on their cars.

[Nick Notarangelo]

I got two neighbors whom work for the rexburg pd and one drives a charger and the other a crownvic and they both swear to the charger and the one who drives the ford pos is a k-9 cop and his dog like the charger better

Edited December 17, 2009 by riknight1972