Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 WOW! This is by far the most concisely stated, insightful, meaningful and eloquent post in this thread. I need not read more. That is if you agree that he is intentionally exploiting others–which is not a given, but an opinion.
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Regarding this guy "preying" on uninformed newbies... Do you really think that a person who goes online looking for a specific model part or parts is totally unaware of kit and/or part prices? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that a person looking for specific parts to specific kits is probably already immersed in the hobby, probably has bought more than one kit, probably knows the typical going rate for kits and such? In other words, I doubt that people who are completely unaware of the hobby or hobby-related pricing would be going online looking to buy a specific part for a specific kit in the first place. Why would they??? And further, anyone who is familiar with ebay would also realize that this guy is not the only source for most of the stuff he has on sale, and that a few mouse clicks would probably find others who have the same stuff for sale.
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Dennis Miller has a line that I agree with... "I'm perfectly willing to help the helpless, but not the clueless."
KingSix Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) He is banking on the uninformed, perhaps less "internet literate" crowd. I personally shop around before making any purchase. Find the best price (including shipping), then give that person my business. I agree, it does not make him "immoral" by the prices he sets. What makes him immoral is that he preys on the uniformed .. but that's a double edged sword in and of itself. I personally think it's a xxxxx way to do business and it does nothing but drive prices up in an overly inflated (pricewise ) hobby. Modeling used to be a refuge for me. Now it's a balancing act. " Do i really want to spend X amount on a kit " or " Do I really need the $7 dollar can of Tamiya paint, when I can buy the same paint, in a larger can at another store ? " In the end, he's not immoral any more than Year One is in the prices they charge ( I REFUSE to do business with them directly ), if I do use a Year One part, it's because it's a customer supplied part, but I also take the time to explain to that customer that Year One parts are made ( 9 times out of 10 ) by the same manufacturer as the lower priced part . You're just paying a mark up because the box says "Year One". In the end , all it does is drive up the over all cost of the business / hobby. Edited September 22, 2013 by Harry P.
Tom Geiger Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Regarding this guy "preying" on uninformed newbies... Just look at his feedback. Most of his buyers have hundreds to thousands of feedback. Not newbies to eBay.
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 What makes him immoral is that he preys on the uniformed. You can't blame the seller if the buyer is uninformed.
southpier Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 He is banking on the uninformed, perhaps less "internet literate" crowd. I personally shop around before making any purchase. Find the best price (including shipping), then give that person my business. I agree, it does not make him "immoral" by the prices he sets. What makes him immoral is that he preys on the uniformed ...... so the consumer has no responsibility to educate himself? caveat emptor
brad4321 Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 I strongly, no STRONLY disagree with anyone who says the seller is doing anything immoral, shady, unethical, etc, etc. A seller wants to get as much as possible for an item and a buyer wants to pay as little for it. Somewhere in the middle, there is hopefully agreement, and that is the price. I will sell you a penny for a nickel if you're willing to pay it. And if the guy over there is willing to pay a dime, I'll sell it to him.
Thatswhatshesaid Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Yes there is a sucker born every minute. It's also not my job or concern to inform everyone that they are a sucker. If someone wants to pay his prices thats their business. I know I won't. Like someone posted earlier when they get their saved search notifications and its full of his parts listings. I get tired of weeding through his listings to find what I really am looking for. IMO selling parts is one thing but taking a kit and selling it piece by piece seems assenine. How many complete kits have been lost to this guy? Maybe I should start selling my old lego kits piece by piece. I'd be a millionaire.
Skip Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Plain and simple. Personal choice, if you don't like the price don't buy it! I don't like all the sellers I deal with on eBay, some are gems while others are turds. I am the one in control of the sale in the first place, I decide whether the asking price is excessive or reasonable. I am the one who agrees to pay whatever price the seller asks for the convenience of a "Buy It Now" transaction. Simply because I either can't wait or am too lazy to scrounge it up. BTW, I've never dealt with this seller, I'm not that desperate!
KingSix Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 so the consumer has no responsibility to educate himself? caveat emptor Not at all, had you quoted the entire statement , I said " it's a double edged sword" .. I also stated CLEARLY that it does nothing but drive the cost of our hobby higher. he's obviously not a hobbyist . He's a shyster who had found a niche. Is he making money ? Yup. So are the oil companies that are driving up the cost of gasoline to line their own pockets. How many here think that's ok ? I bet not many. Or pharmaceutical companies that charge outrageous prices for drugs. It's an everyday occurrence. Doesn't make it right. You have to ask yourself, would you do this to a family member ? A close friend ? A co-worker ? If you answered "yes" to any of those, then you're somebody I don't want to know. Karma has sharp teeth and a propensity for peoples butts.. At least that is how I try to run my business, " do unto others" .. will I ever get rich like this ? No. Do I sleep well at night and have any problems looking myself in the mirror ? No.
southpier Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) He is banking on the uninformed, perhaps less "internet literate" crowd. I personally shop around before making any purchase. Find the best price (including shipping), then give that person my business. I agree, it does not make him "immoral" by the prices he sets. What makes him immoral is that he preys on the uniformed .. but that's a double edged sword in and of itself. I personally think it's a xxxxx way to do business and it does nothing but drive prices up in an overly inflated (pricewise ) hobby. Modeling used to be a refuge for me. Now it's a balancing act. " Do i really want to spend X amount on a kit " or " Do I really need the $7 dollar can of Tamiya paint, when I can buy the same paint, in a larger can at another store ? " In the end, he's not immoral any more than Year One is in the prices they charge ( I REFUSE to do business with them directly ), if I do use a Year One part, it's because it's a customer supplied part, but I also take the time to explain to that customer that Year One parts are made ( 9 times out of 10 ) by the same manufacturer as the lower priced part . You're just paying a mark up because the box says "Year One". In the end , all it does is drive up the over all cost of the business / hobby. I didn't quote the entire post because there are too many, and too easy, statements which contain discrepancies. could you please share with the rest of the hobby community where we could obtain "... the same paint ..." as Tamiya? thanks. Edited September 22, 2013 by southpier
KingSix Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) I didn't quote the entire post because there are too many, and too easy, statements which contain discrepancies. could you please share with the rest of the hobby community where we could obtain "... the same paint ..." as Tamiya? thanks. Michael's carries a nice alternative .. works very well and with a little effort ( cutting and buffing ) it does a superior job. But then again, I can cut and buff Rustoleum to a mirror shine that you'd swear isn't Rustoleum. Also , most car parts stores carry very good paint at a fraction of the cost. But, instead of picking out "one thing" that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, how about you stay on task and speak to the original issue ? The fact that this guy is no better than big oil or the pharmaceutical companies. Or whether or not YOU would do business with a family member , close friend or co-worker like this .. It's a small world that gets smaller everyday, thanks to the internet, social media and forums just like this. You should treat every customer like family.. end of story. Do nothing to that customer you wouldn't do to your Dad, Brother, Sister or Mother. If more people thought along these lines, the world would be a better place for it. I'm all for making a buck or 2. But not at the expense of my conscience or beliefs. As I said before, I bet you've complained a time or 7,000 about the cost of gas. I know I have. It's the SAME thing. Apparently you have no issues with the cost of our hobby being driven through the roof. Must be nice to have that much disposable income.. another example, I don't know how many of you in here have other hobbies, but I do. I shoot. I hunt, shoot competitively and for recreation. I have several firearms. Over the past year I have seen prices skyrocket on AR-15's. AR's that sold 1.5 years ago for $650 were selling for over 2K .. this was all brought on by the tragedy in Newtown Ct.. same with ammunition. I could buy 500 rds of .223 for $100. The last can I bought was over $275. This was brought on buy panic and further facilitated by profiteers. That is the difference. I know a gentleman who spent over 28,000 on AR's last Feb. he bought 7 rifles and 10, 100 rd "Beta" mags. He is now losing his shirt on these rifles because the panic is over. Making a buck is one thing, profiteering is quite another. Edited September 22, 2013 by KingSix
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 He's a shyster who had found a niche. Is he making money ? Yup. So are the oil companies that are driving up the cost of gasoline to line their own pockets. How many here think that's ok ? I bet not many. Or pharmaceutical companies that charge outrageous prices for drugs. Now you're getting into really deep water. The price of gas isn't simply determined by the oil companies. There is way more to it than that. In fact, the oil companies themselves have very little, if any, control over oil (and gas) prices, because oil is a commodity that is traded worldwide. The price of a barrel of oil on any given day depends on a lot of factors, some legitimate and some not so much, but believe me, it's not set by a roomful of evil Exxon/Mobil execs twirling their mustaches. It just doesn't work that way. Prescription drugs are a different story, and here I would tend to agree with you that the big pharmaceutical companies are taking advantage of the situation. If they make a popularly prescribed drug, they own the patent to that drug and they can charge just about whatever they want. Of course, if you have prescription drug coverage the insurance company picks up most of the cost, but then they just turn around and raise their rates, and around it goes. But yeah, charging crazy prices for drugs that can help sick people does seem a little immoral. But neither of those things can be compared to a guy selling model parts online. He's one man, independent of any other sellers. Nobody needs what he's selling to stay alive or get to work every day, nobody's health or well being rides on what he's selling. He puts up the stuff, he describes (accurately) what you're getting, and he and he alone decides the price that he wants to sell it for. Whether you buy from him is totally your decision. He isn't forcing you to buy from him, he isn't threatening you if you don't buy from him, and he's not trying to trick you into buying from him Absolutely nothing immoral in that scenario.
niteowl7710 Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Man did I miss the "Pin Harry to the Wall with Fake Outrage and Dubious Moral Superiority on 9/22!" Memo?
KingSix Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Now you're getting into really deep water. The price of gas isn't simply determined by the oil companies. There is way more to it than that. In fact, the oil companies themselves have very little, if any, control over oil (and gas) prices, because oil is a commodity that is traded worldwide. The price of a barrel of oil on any given day depends on a lot of factors, some legitimate and some not so much, but believe me, it's not set by a roomful of evil Exxon/Mobil execs twirling their mustaches. It just doesn't work that way. Prescription drugs are a different story, and here I would tend to agree with you that the big pharmaceutical companies are taking advantage of the situation. If they make a popularly prescribed drug, they own the patent to that drug and they can charge just about whatever they want. Of course, if you have prescription drug coverage the insurance company picks up most of the cost, but then they just turn around and raise their rates, and around it goes. But yeah, charging crazy prices for drugs that can help sick people does seem a little immoral. But neither of those things can be compared to a guy selling model parts online. He's one man, independent of any other sellers. Nobody needs what he's selling to stay alive or get to work every day, nobody's health or well being rides on what he's selling. He puts up the stuff, he describes (accurately) what you're getting, and he and he alone decides the price that he wants to sell it for. Whether you buy from him is totally your decision. He isn't forcing you to buy from him, he isn't threatening you if you don't buy from him, and he's not trying to trick you into buying from him Absolutely nothing immoral in that scenario. you don't "need" to drive a car either. You can ride a bike to work. You can quit you job and get one closer to home, or ride the bus. It's profiteering, plain and simple.
Harry P. Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 you don't "need" to drive a car either. You can ride a bike to work. You can quit you job and get one closer to home, or ride the bus. It's profiteering, plain and simple. The world is more complicated than you think it is (or are willing to admit).
KingSix Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Man did I miss the "Pin Harry to the Wall with Fake Outrage and Dubious Moral Superiority on 9/22!" Memo? who are you referring to ? I hope it's not me, because A. I'm not "outraged" I'm disgusted and B. There is not one thing "dubious" about my morals ..
KingSix Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 The world is more complicated than you think it is (or are willing to admit). Harry, you are obviously an intelligent man. But you have failed to answer ANY of the questions I have posed. Would you treat a family member this way ? Make a buck of them because you know you can ? I'll say this and be done with it. Let's agree to disagree on this subject. As for the world being a "complicated" place. It is and it isn't. 6 years in the Marine Corps Infantry ( 48 mos. of it overseas ) taught me much. All I can say is, I would never take advantage of something like this. It just doesn't sit well with me. I was raised better than that .
High octane Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Say what you want about free market and such. I still say it's a vicious tactic .. but you are right in saying the only people to blame are the ones that buy them. Sad state of affairs at any rate On the other hand, the guys that buy the parts are "happy" they got the parts they needed. This is a two-way street.
Art Anderson Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 Getting back into the hobby in the past few weeks and seeing how much things have changed. I was checking out eBay , pricing kits and whatnot and found this seller.http://www.ebay.com/usr/pj-toys . This guy is unboxing OOP kits and selling the parts individually/ Now before anyone corrects me , I know they are his to do with as he pleases .. but I'd like feedback from other builders on how they feel about this selling tactic .. Well, on the face of it, I see nothing wrong. After all, that's not much different than a merchant selling individual parts for a real car, be they NOS, take-offs from a disassembled new car, or for that matter, the parts operation of an automotive scrapyard. Of course, the supply of old model kits can still be rather finite--but there probably are guys out there willing to buy a part or parts from someone like this because in their own mind/situation, they want just THAT part and not the whole kit. Art
Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Does ANY of this really matter????? As a wise man (I THINK it was southpier) once said "it's a distinctly first-world problem". It's an everyday occurrence. Doesn't make it right. You have to ask yourself, would you do this to a family member ? A close friend ? A co-worker ? If you answered "yes" to any of those, then you're somebody I don't want to know... At least that is how I try to run my business, " do unto others" .. will I ever get rich like this ? No. Do I sleep well at night and have any problems looking myself in the mirror ? No. On the other hand, the concept of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", which is the underlying moral issue, is a distinctly universal concern. Edited September 22, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy
sjordan2 Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Does ANY of this really matter?????A. No.B. How does a guy parting out a kit on eBay drive the overall cost of the entire hobby higher, except for the price to the individual who buys those parts? Are there measurable figures on this? Man, that's a powerful guy. Edited September 22, 2013 by sjordan2
Ace-Garageguy Posted September 22, 2013 Posted September 22, 2013 B. How does parting out a kit on eBay drive the overall cost of the hobby higher except for the individual who buys those parts? Are there measurable figures on this? Any time anybody, in any field, raises prices and consistently GETS them, it seems to give carte-blanche to every me-too pig-greedy seller to raise his own prices. Hence, eventually, ALL the prices continue to creep up, because MOST of the guys selling for 'fair' prices don't want to be left behind. That is how the world works...all you have to do is to pay attention to see it in operation every day, in everything.
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