Mechanical mistakes when building

[Mach1revo]

Theres alot of valid points on both sides here. All that really matters is whether the person building is enjoying the build. Some people just dont enjoy hours or even minutes of research. They build what and how they want. In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Are they ruining the hobby for the people who want it right down to every detail? Not everyone wants to spend a year+ on a build while others crank out one in a weekend and move on i think most of us are somewhere in between. Like Dr. Cranky says it depends on how you feel and your attention span, etc...

Honestly the first thing i look at in a build on display or posted is build quality not the firing order or if there are the proper amount of tissues in the tissue holder. I feel the overall build quality ie: mold seams , glue joints , paint finish etc. come first but thats getting off topic.

Remember this hobby is many different things to many different people. Not everyone has the funds, means , skills or even desire to do certain things to a model kit. If that bothers you then just move on, no harm no foul.

I am by no means an expert modeler and mine may have inaccuracies that stand out to an expert in the field. Im OK with that. I had fun building it and if i do go to a show and someone else enjoys it than to me its a success. If not my shelf isnt going to care...lol.

Sorry if i rambled

[Ace-Garageguy]

But yet, earlier you say:

So ... correct firing order (which to me is one of those "if you're gonna do it, do it right sorta things) isn't part of the "higher standard"?

I see how this seems to be a contradiction.

My justification is that, even though I'm a pretty fair 1:1 mechanic with a of of background, I wouldn't recognize an incorrect firing order on most V8 1:1 engines JUST BY LOOKING without getting the book out (if I hear it run rough, I'll look it up) so when I look at a model, I just don't care...as long as the plug wires are routed correctly so they wouldn't get burned by hot pipes or caught up in mechanical movements, are routed correctly for a SPECIFIC engine (the Ford Y-block and the flatheads have unusual routing, for example), and are the right diameter to represent accurately the application and era.

It's another one of those things that come down to what a particular individual modeler thinks, for whatever reason, is important. I have my reason.

It's also one of those things where I KNOW that firing orders are different, and I know HOW TO DO IT RIGHT, but I've made a CONSCIOUS decision to USUALLY let it go (unless it's going to be immediately obvious that something's wrong). Frankly, if I saw a judge at a model contest looking up firing orders, I'd probably just laugh and walk away.

I also think that anyone who looks at my builds has a pretty good idea that I have a pretty good idea of how stuff actually works, and my work reflects that knowledge.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[Harry P.]

Another common mistake many builders make is loading up the engine compartment with every last possible gadget and gizmo. Tons of PE doohickeys, wires running everywhere, etc. While theoretically the details may be "correct" as far as being present and accounted for, a lot of 1:1 detail literally disappears when you scale it down 24 or 25 times. To me, an engine that looks right, even though not every last little spring and fitting and nut is present, is a more successful model than one where the builder has added every last detail... many of which are just too big and clunky looking in 1/24-1/25 scale.

The trick to a realistic scale engine, to me, is getting the right balance between not enough detail (no wiring at all, for example) and too much detail. To my eye an overly-detailed engine, again, while it may be technically correct, looks more "toy-like" than one that's a little more subtly done. Marcos Cruz is one guy who comes to mind whose style of engine detailing looks just about right to me.

[mistermodel]

putting a chevy engine in a ford hotrod

[southpier]

...unless you are some sort of automotive savant...

but isn't it so obvious that there are those which would have us drink their kool-aid?

c'mon, now . . .

[Harry P.]

but isn't it so obvious that there are those which would have us drink their kool-aid?

c'mon, now . . .

I don't like Kool-aid...

[zenrat]

...In the grand scheme of things when that final judgement day comes (the real one) I don't think firing order is going to come up in the conversation.

I'm not sure about that. Some modellers get treated like gods and so might expect to have a say when the time comes...

Edited July 14, 2013 by zenrat

[comp1839]

the "trick", i believe, harry isn't to leave out detail (to achieve balance) but, to get the details CORRECT. if the details were correct in their scaling. then the model would look like a scaled down picture. again, dimensionally correct parts are needed. not the old artistic thumb as a reference kinda thing. of course in 1/24 or 1/25 scale that could mean some really small stuff but, that's the other end of the price you pay when you work in that scale. it's less exspensive but, finer/ smaller parts.

joe, never heard any one offer you any kool aid.

[southpier]

let's just say if there were a resume sub-forum, I think it might have quite a few submissions.

it's okay if I have an opinion, isn't it? you are entitled to your own.

[Ace-Garageguy]

let's just say if there were a resume sub-forum, I think it might have quite a few submissions.

it's okay if I have an opinion, isn't it? you are entitled to your own.

Isn't there some cogent piece of folk wisdom about opinions likened to a body part, everyone having them, and most everyone thinking...etc. ?

Edited July 15, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[highway]

Seems to me that this whole thread is dedicated to people who suggest ways to improve detail. I don't see how your comment that criticizes that reflects the subject or moves the conversation forward. I don't get your point.

I was not trying to criticize in any way, just merely stating the fact that if you spend the time detailing a model, you might as well GET IT RIGHT! I believe if you read this excerpt from Mr. Smith's post, you'll see my point:

since the title to this topic is "mechanical mistakes when building" i'm trying to figure out all the hub-bub from the "i don't build that way" crowd? no one said you had to build that way and not to be a smart guy but, one can look at your work and know you don't build that way. you don't need to tell every one. if my comment offends you, i'm sorry. the truth is the truth. i can look at dr. cranky's post apocolyptic work and while i appreciate it and admire it. i know it wasn't built to be an accurately detailed model. (sorry if you think i'm pickin' on you doc. i'm not. i do like your work) i'm just sayin'. how about we keep the topic, on topic. if you wish to start a new topic to express your opinion. i'm sure, that's what this board is here for.

If you don't want to spend the time adding details and just build something, then there is now issue. The issue is when it comes to wanting to spend the time adding details, them the builder should at least take the extra time to research the project and get it CORRECT!! When it comes to building contest models, judges know more than you think! If a firing order is wrong, at least one will notice, and with the show I was a part of and judge of for many years, the ones who did take the time to research and build correctly walked home with the hardware, and the "good enough of the girls I go out with" attitudes went home emptyhanded and with hurt egos! I bet not many here even realize if you look closely at the intake manifold from Revell/Monogram's 1970 Buick GSX, the research for the correct firing order is already done for you, it's engraved right on the manifold!

I guess all in all, you'll probably say I'm narrowminded, or that I'm just a talentless hack, but I by far am my own worst critic and not from the "good enough for the girls I go out with" crowd. If having details incorrect suits you, that's fine, but I guess my rivet counting critic inside of me just can't build that way! If I'm going to detail or even superdetail a build, I HAVE TO HAVE EVERYTHING INCLUDING FIRING ORDERS CORRECT! I have many projects I have spent years researching, mostly NASCAR builds (which will put me on more haters lists), that I have been researching a car built for a certain race and making sure all the small contingency sponsor decals are located in the right place. I'm just not happy throwing a Wrangler Jeans decal on a driveshaft and saying it's good enough for me, because it isn't, so be happy and put me on the rivet counter haters list too, because I won't build something I'm detailing out halfBLEEPed!

[Steven Zimmerman]

Actually, I think the ISSUE here.... Is WHY do people think they have a right to tell someone else HOW TO BUILD ? Some here have said they won't build something halfbleeped....fine....but it's not your business to decide whether someone who wants to build using some detail has to meet your exacting standards! You want to be "your own worst critic"....fine, but that doesn't give you the right to be everyone else's worst critic too?

[highway]

Actually, I think the ISSUE here.... Is WHY do people think they have a right to tell someone else HOW TO BUILD ? Some here have said they won't build something halfbleeped....fine....but it's not your business to decide whether someone who wants to build using some detail has to meet your exacting standards! You want to be "your own worst critic"....fine, but that doesn't give you the right to be everyone else's worst critic too?

Don't be putting words into my mouth I'm not saying! I'm simply stating that is MY BUILDING STYLE, NOT YOURS OR ANYBODY ELSES!! YOU BUILD YOUR WAY AND I'LL BUILD MINE! I'M SORRY I'M A PERFECTIONIST!!!

[Danno]

[Art Anderson]

To me, the bottom line for any car I've ever built is this: Have I built it to meet my expectations, my own mind's view of how it should look, and have I done a good job of all that stuff? After all, I build my model cars primarily for me, not for some group of contest judges.

Another observation, if I may: Of all the scale modeling hobbies, model car building has had a distinct advantage (or at least it seems to me!) of affording us builders a tremendous freedom not really known in any other area of model building (just think of IPMS types trying to outdo one another for that last bit of at least perceived accuracy!); model railroading at least used to be heavily dominated by the superdetailer, the endless search for realism not only in the building-painting-detailing of locomotives and rolling stock, but also buildings and scenery. Of course, model railroading, being the one scale modeling hobby to combine accuracy of building with operation, the latter being that model trains are supposed to run, and the passion often becomes the "correctness" of operation of that miniature railroad, down to scale speeds, correct adherence to real railroad operating rules, all of that.

We as model car builders, on the other hand, have what I consider to be an enviable freedom, that being the freedom to build a model car as we individually want to build it, say factory stock, rust bucket, replica street rods or customs, race cars, and out to the ultimate of free expression: Our own custom-designed and custom built & finished cars, done the way WE individually want them to appear when finished. Of course, along the way here, there will be criticism along with praise (ranging from half-hearted to sincere admiration), as there will be in any of our life's endeavors. That's the way it's been since the first 12yr old kid sliced the tape seal on an AMT 1958 3in1 customizing kit, and it's continued almost unabated ever since. Now, to my feeble mind, that's perfectly OK, period.

Yes, I can be as praising, and as criticizing as the next person, but I need to bear in mind some very good advice from the late Dale Carnegie ("How To Win Friends and Influence People"--still a very good self-help book some 65 years after it was first published, BTW!) that goes like this: "Be sparing in your aprobation, and lavish in your praise." That was good advice when Carnegie wrote it back in the 1940's, and it still is today. Sure, the firing order may be misrepresented on that engine, the generator or alternator may still be held in place only by means of a fan belt, the panel lines may be highlighted too darkly, just about any criticism one may see to add to the conversation; but in the end, the bottom line, this is a hobby with a long tradition of doing stuff because it's fun to do, fun to do it whatever way the individual chooses, and unless the model in question is being submitted for critical examination at a contest or certainly to be looked at by those known to be expertly acquainted with the real thing--isn't it best to let some if not most of the things mentioned in this thread lay? What does it do to get all exercised about this or that being wrongly done anyway? Does that sort of criticism advance the hobby for anyone, especially if it's entirely unsolicited? I for one, have to question whether that does much more than enhance the ego of the person saying it, while threatening to diminish the hobby for the person whose model is the recipient of such talk.

Worth thinking about, I would suggest.

Art

[John Morrison]

I've only caught the high points from the thread so far. I will go back & read the entire thing shortly. I know enough to throw in these two comments & may edit this later.

First detail for the sake of detail is fine if that is how you build. Detail devoid of accuracy? Again fine, but don't be surprised if someone points out that a power steering pump doesn't get plumbed to an alternator, that an automatic transmission doesn't have external linkage like a manual or that you used Chevy headers on a Ford motor, etc, etc.

Second it is not anyone's place to tell someone how to build or demand accuracy from a "super detailer". However when builders are held above others, given much coverage in several model magazines those builds should feel some responsibility to get it right. When you are put in the spotlight of the hobby, whether it is deserved or wanted, you become a representative for the hobby and will be held to a higher standard by others, especially those outside the hobby but have an interest in models & automobiles. Many peoples opinions are already jaded & think we play with toys. Extraneous, non-accurately detailed models will do nothing to dispel that generalization.

A little extra time spend researching your build can pay big dividends in the future. Besides once you learn the basics of wiring & plumbing engines for example, you don't have to re-learn it for every build, just tweak the specifics for manufacturer, displacement, etc.

[blunc]

I have to say that I really enjoy Mr. Anderson's posts, I never know about the mechanicals of model T's and I found that fastinating...and useful should I ever build a stock Model T.

[gwolf]

Wow! I thought I had commented on this thread but my post isn't there...

Peeves... guys using doll house accessories (1/12 scale) on models and dioramas..

Since junkers and beaters are my area... builders who rust out cars in places the real car would never rust. For instance I remember a '57 Chevy that was rusted through on the center of the roof, but the places the cars actually rusted, like the tops of the headlights were pristine. Do some research, it's pretty easy today with the Internet.

Dioramas with tires and rims sitting on the ground with the lug nuts still on them. Junkers with missing front and back windows but the chrome surround that holds in said window is still intact.

And the biggie... junkers being offered for sale on eBay that are nothing more than an old built up some kid built a long time ago that the opportunist has smeared a bit of mud and red primer on, including on the glass and interior and calling them PRO BUILT junk yard relics. That just cheapens the art of those of us who do it right!

That PRO BUILT business is ridiculous, isn't it?

[gwolf]

I don't care too much if someone else thinks my models are inaccurate. I do it to please myself.

[wisdonm]

One thing that really irks me on a model is when the builder doesn't add the necessary panel lines between the front fenders,rocker panels and cowl. Not many real cars have the front fenders molded to the body. Another is when they blackwash panel lines where the panels are actually bolted or welded together like rubber bumpers and tulip panels.

A peve of mine is the arrogance of some judges. They come with pre-concieved opinions, such as plug wire locations, and the builder gets unjustly screwed. I own a factory produced, steel bodied car that has no panel lines. All the panels were welded and filled, at the factory. No fender, cowl, rocker, nor rear deck panel lines exist on the real cars. Yet I could never win a contest, because some judge doesn't belive this could be true. Perhaps these panel lines have purposely been filled in by the modeler, to get that clean look? Maybe he likes the way he ran the plug wires. You're right. It's your opinion that counts. Screw 'em.

Edited July 15, 2013 by wisdonm

[Steven Zimmerman]

Matthew, you said" if one wants to take the time to add extra detail, then the builder should at least take the extra time to research the project and get it CORRECT ! " I rest my case.

[Harry P.]

Some of you guys are missing the point of the original intent of this thread. It was about listing some of the common mistakes builders make... it had nothing to do with which style of building is "right" and which is "wrong."

I don't see why some of you get so defensive all the time. Like several people already said, everyone is perfectly free to build a model car the way they want to do it, without any need to please someone else. That's obvious. And nobody is saying that their way of doing things is better than your way.

If you're ok with "magic floating alternators" or don't care whether or not the plug wires are in the correct firing order, that's ok! And if you are one of those detail nuts that adds every last little part to the engine, that's ok too! There is no one right way to take part in this hobby.

But we have to be able to have a simple discussion about common building mistakes without everyone getting bent out of shape.

[crazyjim]

I'm guilty of all the mistakes that have been mentioned. That said, I build for me. If others like something I build, great, if they don't, that's great too. Just as long as I'm happy with whatever I did.

[Deano]

OK, I'm a weird bird. If I'm detailing under the hood the spark plug wires will be in the correct order (years ago I put together a book of firing orders and, by golly, I'm going to use it!); the heater hoses will be present and routed correctly; the fuel lines will be there; the throttle linkages ... erm ... notsomuch (my eyesight ain't what it used to be and it's never been all that good). All that being said, I'm just as likely to just glue the hood shut and not bother with the engine at all. Like I said, I'm a weird bird.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Deano

[Blown03SVT]

I didn't see the need for getting bent out of shape, I am not critiquing someone else's building, but rather my own. Aside from the escalation of some folks blood pressure here, I observe, take note at other things I can improve upon and maybe try to impliment the improvements or at a minimum be more skeptical towards what I have done in the past. There was mention of contest building, which I am unsure how that became relavent to the topic other than being angry at how a judge might see the mechanical errors or building faux pas in comparison to the builder. I think there is another thread for that anyways.