Correction fluid as filler?

[Blown03SVT]

So I was poking around on that social media website on the interwebs. I had found on the Testors page they make a suggestion of using Paper Correction Fluid as a light filler. Hmmm, something similar to Mr. Surfacer but cheaper and more accessible? Anyone use Wite Out as filler? If so which variety as thier are several, and what would you thin it with? Thanks

[Tom Geiger]

Experiment if you will, but any time you introduce a new material and different material to something, you have more chance for it to react with the next coats.

For the same thing, I use primer. I use Duplicolor gray for nearly everything. When I have slight imperfections etc that I wish to fill, I'll take the primer, spray a bit into a small cup, and wait for it to start drying. Once it's thick, then I'll dab a little into little sink marks and other minor things I hope to correct. It IS primer so it will sand right, and there's nothing different on your model to cause a bad reaction later.

[Art Anderson]

The using of "white out" typing correction fluid is an old trick! That stuff first became available in the middle 1960's, IIRC, when the world was still using typewriters (you know, back in the "Analog Age"!).

Type correction fluid is a form of flat-finish, thickened lacquer, replacing the old typewriter erasers for better looking copy. However, it does tend to be a bit chalky, and doesn't adhere all that well to styrene plastic, in my experience. It was popular, however, among modelers of military subjects, when they got into conversions, puttying seams and the like, and using needle files to smooth those down. Typing correction fluid seemed to work well for filling the small scratches and grooves from that, UNTIL modelers discovered automotive spot & glaze putty, which adheres much better, and could be used for even deeper filling.

Art

[Brett Barrow]

I've tried it before. Doesn't "bite" or melt into the plastic and will usually leave a hair-line gap around the edge of the filled area (which can be remedied with a further application of Mr. Surfacer - but I guess that defeats the point of using it as a substitute). Doesn't feather out very well, can chip at the edges. Works OK for filling panel lines and sharp, deep scratches (like scriber slips) or things with well-defined edges (like ejector pin marks). Since it doesn't feather out, doesn't work well for shallow depressions or sinkmarks. If you've got some handy, give it a shot - you might like it.

[Tom Geiger]

Come to think of it, I did use it as scale bird poop on one of my builds!

[Ace-Garageguy]

Come to think of it, I did use it as scale bird poop on one of my builds!

Probably the best use for it.

It's kinda hard to beat materials that are actually engineered for the job, and that you know will work every time: 2-part automotive glazing putty for heavy work and restyling, and one-part lacquer-based stuff (like Squadron Green) for very small corrections.

The possibly few-pennies saved just aren't worth the possible aggravation, rework, wasted time, etc., in my opinion.

[Harry P.]

Probably the best use for it.

It's kinda hard to beat materials that are actually engineered for the job, and that you know will work every time: 2-part automotive glazing putty for heavy work and restyling, and one-part lacquer-based stuff (like Squadron Green) for very small corrections.

The possibly few-pennies saved just aren't worth the possible aggravation, rework, wasted time, etc., in my opinion.

Gotta agree with that. With the wide variety of products available that are specifically meant to be used as filler, why on earth would you want to use something that's not meant to be used as a filler? It's like saying hey... did you know that you can make a pretty good substitute for toothpaste if you mix some baking soda, salt, water and a little mint together for flavor? Well, I guess that would make sort of a passable substitute for toothpaste... but why wouldn't you just use toothpaste as toothpaste???

[Blown03SVT]

It's kinda hard to beat materials that are actually engineered for the job, and that you know will work every time: 2-part automotive glazing putty for heavy work and restyling, and one-part lacquer-based stuff (like Squadron Green) for very small corrections.

The possibly few-pennies saved just aren't worth the possible aggravation, rework, wasted time, etc., in my opinion.

Actually we as modelers have adapted a lot of building materials and tools from other places. Auto body, jewelry making, art, household cleaners, even medical and dental tools.

Anyhow, I honestly I would have had no intention to use it for anything other than spot filling errant scribe marks like Art was discribing. And yes glazing putty will work but is a bit of a pain to mix such a small amount correctly. CA glue and baking soda or micro balloons only works so-so for such small touch ups. Mr. Surfacer would probably work great but it's not super accessable and a little spendy. As for the green stuff putty.... I try to avoid using that all together. Thanks for the feedback guys. If I feel froggy I might actually try it and see how it goes. I suppose the worse thing that could happen would be to have to do it over the right way.

[Harry P.]

And yes glazing putty will work but is a bit of a pain to mix such a small amount correctly.

Glazing putty comes in two different types: one-part and two-part.

The two-part stuff is meant to fill larger areas and for rough bodywork, the one-part stuff, which does not require mixing, is meant for small imperfections like scratches.

[Ace-Garageguy]

i wouldn't recommend the "green stuff" if I hadn't had excellent results with it over the years (used correctly as only a filler for tiny flaws), but to each his own. The intended-as-plastic-filler materials include solvents that promote adhesion to styrene. I haven't read the correction-fluid label.

You reference to "CA glue and baking soda or microballoons" as a filler makes ME cringe. I use micro mixed with epoxy frequently with excellent results, but after trying thickened CA as a filler, I'll have to pass. In MY experience (yours may differ) every time I've tried to use a CA-based filler, it's shrunk very noticeably when hit with lacquer primers, which is what I prefer. The shrinkage results in having to use more primer than I'd like, so I now use engineered materials exclusively. I may be doing something wrong that the CA-filler devotees know about, so I'm open to enlightenment.

Good luck with your experiments.

[Skip]

Bill, I've used CA glue and tinted baking soda for years doing figure and monster models. I also use some pretty hot lacquer primers right over it and have never experienced any shrinkage, either I'm doing something right or its just a fluke. I've never used microbaloons with anything other than epoxy. Never occurred to me to try balloons with CA, sounds like I'm glad I haven't. From my experience I would say that CA glue and baking soda is about the same as CA glue and accelerator for filler. The majority of complaints I have heard are that the CA glue once dry is somewhat harder than the underlying styrene. So shrinkage is a new one.

Edited for spelling error, iPad corrects spelling but not usage, go figure.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Skip

[Art Anderson]

Actually, I've pretty much standardized here on three items for use as fillers: Catalyzed automobile body putty (the really thin kind, I prefer USC "Icing" which is thin consistency, works very well for a lot of filling applications), lacquer-based auto body "spot & glaze" putty, and gap-filling CA for really delicate areas where the other two won't work (this also works, of course, as an adhesive).

Of the three, two (catalyzed body putty, and gap-filling CA) have never presented any shrinkage problems for me (and I've used both for better than 20 years), while of course, any lacquer based putty will shrink, as the solvent evaporates (evaporation of the solvent reduces the volume of the putty!).

Of the three, I probably use more gap-filling CA than anything else, simply because with an accelerator, it can be cured in mere seconds (up to a minute or more if the fill is deep). However, unlike the putties, this stuff is needle file territory for smoothing down, as mere sanding can leave an uneven surface as the surrounding plastic gets sanded away by the necessarily flexible sandpapers we all use. So, files do become necessary, and sometimes a needle file, no matter how small (and in my tool box I have a large set of 3" fine needle files).

Both catalyzed putties and CA glue do have a tendency to cause "ghosting" when using lacquer paints though--lacquer thinners tend to cause styrene plastic to swell (taken to the extreme, that is what causes "crazing" or "frosting" of styrene, while neither the CA nor the catalyzed putties are affected whatsoever by lacquer. One would not, however, notice this "ghosting effect" with lacquer putties, as the dried putty will swell up ever so slightly right along with the ajacent styrene (again, based on LONG experience with lacquer based putty.)

I've never felt the need to use any sort of "filler" with CA, so I cannot speak to how that might act.

Art

[Ace-Garageguy]

I'm agreeing with Art across the board here, even to preferring USC Icing. After thinking about it, I recall I've used gap-filling CA gel (Loctite) for fine edge-filling of panels and making 'weld fillets' on tube frames with excellent, consistent results.

[Blown03SVT]

Art appreciate you sharing your experience in all your years of experience in the craft (and all the other folks that have responded as well). I remember in my teenage years (1994) reading SAE and seeing Art's name all the time when resin bodies where mentioned.

[george 53]

Art used to be one of THE BEST resin casters there were. He gave it up due to health problems, but hey, that's OK too, cas he's HERE now, and we ALL get the benefit of his many years of knowledge and expirience! Thanks,Art.

[martinfan5]

I agree with Bill as well

Edited July 26, 2013 by martinfan5

[Danno]

What goes around, comes around. A certain local Mime-DJ that I know uses bondo to cover up mistakes he makes in the letters he writes.

[Skip]

Art I think you hit the nail on the head. While reading through your explanation of CA glue and accelerator it hit me that what is happening is not that the CA glue is shrinking but overworking with sandpaper is taking away more styrene, giving the appearance of shrinking. I know that when I first started using the gap filling CA glue I had issues with overworkingthe area being filled.

Don't get me wrong, I use catylized spot putties all the time, both have their uses. I like the CA glues for both gluing and filling seams, I think that's what I first started using it for, probably around the time Testers reissued the Hawk Weird Ohs. The seams were horrible on those things!

[Ace-Garageguy]

I gotts to say that I've used gap-filling CA to fill things like extraneous antenna holes and the like on several builds. You might say I have a little experience with shaping and getting things flat and straight, and dealing with dis-similar materials and substrates. Maybe it's only a problem on the older, more solvent-resistant bodies (hot Tenax will barely touch the green styrene on my '61 Dodge Pheonix annual), but I've applied the stuff in layers to be proud of the surface, filed it dead flat with no damage to surrounding plastic, and then shot lacquer primer over it. The filled holes look dead-perfect as the lacquer lays down...and I kinda know what I'm looking at...and over a little while will shrink into the holes enough to be visible. Sanding flat and re-primering makes it less noticeable, etc. etc. Eventually the shrinkage stops. This was an issue on my '32 Ford wedge-channeled gluebomb rework (based on a second-release AMT '32 roadster body shell), and created a little extra work. Probably drilling the holes to 1/16 inch and gluing in styrene plugs would have been a better solution.

Nobody has to believe me, but I know what I've seen happen on several occasions. Maybe the problem is that I didn't add baking soda to the CA, but I usually put that in cornbread.

The Loctite CA gel I've come to prefer for its strength as 'weld fillets' does this. That's all I know.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Ace-Garageguy

[martinfan5]

What goes around, comes around. A certain local Mime-DJ that I know uses bondo to cover up mistakes he makes in the letters he writes.

What are you talking about ?

[Danno]

What are you talking about ?

That was just a joke, son.

[Art Anderson]

I'm agreeing with Art across the board here, even to preferring USC Icing. After thinking about it, I recall I've used gap-filling CA gel (Loctite) for fine edge-filling of panels and making 'weld fillets' on tube frames with excellent, consistent results.

I discovered Icing about 10 years ago when I went looking for Evercoat--the NAPA store I went to in Mishawaka IN didn't have that, but they pointed me to USC Icing--which is about half the price of Evercoat, and works just as nicely (a lot of times, the very same product can be had for less in a brand other than what some famous modelers swear by!).

As for gap filling CA, I got into using that when resin casting, as I needed a quick filler for working up masters for casting, and also for filling the sometimes inevitable pin hole, so I could have a product I could recommend to customers.

Some have mentioned using Micro Balloons: This product is actually very tiny glass bubbles, each one being not much larger than a grain of talcum powder. RC aircraft builders/flyers hit on this product to use as a filler mixed in epoxy, for it's light weight. A legendary modeler of vintage Indianapolis cars in the Chicago area pointed me to Micro Balloons and epoxy glue over 30 years ago--and I have used that to actually form race car body shells and even body parts for models over the years. This requires a good grade of 30-minute epoxy, such as Devcon, as some cheaper brands of this stuff can actually disintegrate during wet sanding. I just mix the stuff to a paste-like consistency, then spread it on the model (or whatever base I am using) with an artist's palette knife, allow it to harden, then go at it with files and sandpaper. While I don't have any pictures of it, I used this method to reshape a cheap motorized Lotus 72 F1 body into the 1981-82 Jim Hall Chapparal Indy Car, complete with rather accurate ground effects tunnels.

Art

[Blown03SVT]

I got the idea for using micro balloons from this link:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/02/stuff_eng_tech_microballoons.htm

I just recently tried it, and it seemed to work well for filling deep ejection marks. I have yet to prime over it though. Now I am wondering what issues might crop up with the primer.

...on a side note, we got away from the initial topic, but I am glad the info here has gone beyond the typical "what glue/ filler should I use?" which seems to get beaten pretty hard where the search function was handy, as is Bills way of searching the site on Google

[Ace-Garageguy]

I got the idea for using micro balloons from this link:

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/02/stuff_eng_tech_microballoons.htm

I just recently tried it, and it seemed to work well for filling deep ejection marks. I have yet to prime over it though. Now I am wondering what issues might crop up with the primer.

I've had really excellent results for heavy, thick fills (http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59708&page=7 post 128) using micro (as a thickener in epoxies), but you need to use a decent, slower-curing epoxy. Mix it with the 5-minute stuff and it kinda just balls up and comes off when you try to sand it. The better epoxies (the stuff I've used mostly is out-of-date aviation-grade, and the WEST System 105 /205) shrink less than the polyester 2-part glazing putties and are pretty well chemically resistant when cured, so primer has no effect on them.

The downside to using slow-eopxy / micro is that it takes a while to set up well enough to sand (and the West /micro sands beautifully) but it sticks exceptionally well. If you have multiple projects going that you can rotate working on, it's better.

If you feel like experimenting, I'd suggest using at least the 30-minute higher-strength epoxy sold for RC aircraft structural work.

[Skip]

I wonder if there is some formula differences with some of the CA glues that is causing this shrinkage? All I have ever used is the Zap A Gap CA glue both the thickened and thin with *tinted baking soda or thick CA and accelerator. No shrink. Could the formulas between brands be different enough that it works differently from brand to brand? There is definitely something going on, finding out what it is might be helped by seeing what is and isn't common to some having issues with the method and others not.

Bill I believe you when you are referring to shrinkage you are experienced enough to recognize what the defect is and its underlying cause. What I was wondering was, is this what others describe as shrink when it could be overwork.

FYI *tinted baking soda is baking soda with a couple of drops of food coloring to a tablespoon of baking soda, (sodium bicarbonate), the tint helps contrast with the styrene being filled.