what's it take? concept to package?

[Art Anderson]

  On 10/31/2013 at 11:11 PM, Tom Geiger said:

In the 1980s when guys would complain about accuracy of the new releases I always said that when I took over AMT I was going to put a garage door into the design department and park the friggin car in there until they got it right! Now, as you said above, the guys doing the work are in China. Probably be cheaper to fly a pair of them here to do the measuring.

Then again, remember that China is becoming more prosperous and they love American cars. Won't be long before they can just go measure a '57 Chevy locally.

Tom,

Believe it or not, AMT and MPC both used to do that very thing, certainly when developing a model kit of a car which was available for such extended study. In fact, in a magazine article from about 1966 (Car Model, I believe), about MPC and their development process of a new kit, there was a very clear picture of a REAL 1927 Lincoln Roadster inside the rear of their factory, with designers going all over it with measuring sticks, tape measures, and taking voluminous notes about this and that on the car.

In the bottom line, however, it doesn't really much matter the nationality, culture, or background of the people charged with the responsibility of creating the designs, tooling mockups, and ultimately the steel tooling for a model kit, as long as they have the requisite skills and the dedication to follow instructions. Given that, it behooves the people responsible for overseeing the development of a new model car kit to be very sure to provide accurate information, and skilled evaluation and followup. In addition, a high level of communication skills are a requisite here, being even more important than ever when dealing at great distances, as well as across language and cultural "barriers".

Art

[Tom Geiger]

  On 11/1/2013 at 7:34 AM, Art Anderson said:

In the bottom line, however, it doesn't really much matter the nationality, culture, or background of the people charged with the responsibility of creating the designs, tooling mockups, and ultimately the steel tooling for a model kit, as long as they have the requisite skills and the dedication to follow instructions. Given that, it behooves the people responsible for overseeing the development of a new model car kit to be very sure to provide accurate information, and skilled evaluation and followup. In addition, a high level of communication skills are a requisite here, being even more important than ever when dealing at great distances, as well as across language and cultural "barriers".

I have heard that the Chinese designers, tooling and manufacturing folks are very, very good. The equivalent of old world craftsmen.

[Brett Barrow]

  On 11/1/2013 at 7:34 AM, Art Anderson said:

Tom,

Believe it or not, AMT and MPC both used to do that very thing, certainly when developing a model kit of a car which was available for such extended study. In fact, in a magazine article from about 1966 (Car Model, I believe), about MPC and their development process of a new kit, there was a very clear picture of a REAL 1927 Lincoln Roadster inside the rear of their factory, with designers going all over it with measuring sticks, tape measures, and taking voluminous notes about this and that on the car.

Art

In the little photo booklet you get with the recent reissue of AMT's Ohio George Willys there are several pictures from when the car was in AMT's facility being measured. It has a tape grid applied to it, and a couple pics have a measuring stick in them.

[Greg Myers]

their ya go, we used the ol' "measuring stick" when I worked in a machine shop working on Space Shuttle parts.

[Art Anderson]

  On 11/1/2013 at 3:47 PM, Brett Barrow said:

In the little photo booklet you get with the recent reissue of AMT's Ohio George Willys there are several pictures from when the car was in AMT's facility being measured. It has a tape grid applied to it, and a couple pics have a measuring stick in them.

One of the best tools I've ever used in measuring a real car (or parts thereof) for a model or miniature is a carpenter's rule (along with a dressmaker's measuring tape) having every other inch blacked out. Used in photographing the actual car (the ruler being laid close to, or actually on the surface of the vehicle) it gives direct information as to the dimension in question. It makes figuring dimensions in 1/25 scale very easy to do.

Art

[oldcarfan]

Does anyone know if all the 3Dscanning and computerized milling and stuff makes the process any cheaper or does it end up being about the same as the old school man at the milling machine?

[KingSix]

  On 11/1/2013 at 11:11 PM, oldcarfan said:

Does anyone know if all the 3Dscanning and computerized milling and stuff makes the process any cheaper or does it end up being about the same as the old school man at the milling machine?

I've been looking into 3-D printing more and more for my own business, not model related. I think as the technology improves it will be much easier, and more "canned" programs will become available . In other words you'll be able to buy / get a 1971 Plymouth Fury Sport Suburban ( just an example, could be any car ) program, plug it into your 3-D printer and go.. At any rate, in the next 5 years I think it will A put a serious hurt on companies like Revell that refuse to change. Think about, if you could kit any car you wanted at any time and have the ability to produce unlimited copies of it, would you depend on a manufacturer to eventually produce some "close " to what you want ? The technology isn't quite there yet, but my guess in the near future , it will be just that.

[charlie8575]

  On 11/1/2013 at 11:11 PM, oldcarfan said:

Does anyone know if all the 3Dscanning and computerized milling and stuff makes the process any cheaper or does it end up being about the same as the old school man at the milling machine?

Having studied scanning fairly extensively, the answer is it's a little bit of both.

The scanning tool will get the dimensions and most of the shapes quite exact. However, the end product MIGHT need some adjustment from a pattern-maker.

As we have seen on this topic, though, http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69078, a perfect or near-perfect replica can be made from the scans alone.

I think some of the contours might present a bit of a challenge to some scanners, but the proportions and general shapes transmit themselves right into the computer file with little or no trouble.

In the long-run, this will save a fair amount of money and time in designing kits. I suspect we'll also see changes in how parts are designed over time, too, perhaps moving to one-piece engine blocks and transmissions, with the other parts to be attached, suspension assemblies might change, and so forth, but we'll see as this becomes more commonplace.

Charlie Larkin

[Art Anderson]

  On 11/1/2013 at 11:11 PM, oldcarfan said:

Does anyone know if all the 3Dscanning and computerized milling and stuff makes the process any cheaper or does it end up being about the same as the old school man at the milling machine?

I'd be pretty certain that EDM is less expensive to use than the old-fashioned rotary milling pantograph setups, as it's very much robotic from my understanding.

Art

[Art Anderson]

  On 11/1/2013 at 11:20 PM, KingSix said:

I've been looking into 3-D printing more and more for my own business, not model related. I think as the technology improves it will be much easier, and more "canned" programs will become available . In other words you'll be able to buy / get a 1971 Plymouth Fury Sport Suburban ( just an example, could be any car ) program, plug it into your 3-D printer and go.. At any rate, in the next 5 years I think it will A put a serious hurt on companies like Revell that refuse to change. Think about, if you could kit any car you wanted at any time and have the ability to produce unlimited copies of it, would you depend on a manufacturer to eventually produce some "close " to what you want ? The technology isn't quite there yet, but my guess in the near future , it will be just that.

IF one is able to, and willing to spend the money to buy the level of 3D printer that will do the job to a level we've come to expect with our injection-molded plastic kits.

At this point, and probably for a good while into the future, I suspect 3D printing will be at least a small part of the model-building mix, but I'd not hold my breath waiting for it to run the injection-molded plastic model kit into the dirt for a LONG time yet to come.

Art

[KingSix]

In a hobby where people spend literally 1,000's of dollars yearly on kits, new releases and OOP's , paints, styrene, glue , etc etc etc, 3-5K isn't that crazy, especially if it allows you to produce models that have never been done before, or re-pop that classic OOP you've been pining for . Think of the long term savings.. it becomes a no brainer. Resin casting would become almost unnecessary..

[Tom Geiger]

  On 11/1/2013 at 11:11 PM, oldcarfan said:

Does anyone know if all the 3Dscanning and computerized milling and stuff makes the process any cheaper or does it end up being about the same as the old school man at the milling machine?

It's labor but a different discipline. It's pretty much high end CAD designing on a computer rather than by hand. Keep in mind that the folks who can actually produce the CAD work are very skilled.

Any cost savings over the old methods, adjusted for inflation, won't make kits cheaper in the future. But it will keep them affordable and within reach.

[Art Anderson]

  On 11/2/2013 at 12:11 AM, KingSix said:

In a hobby where people spend literally 1,000's of dollars yearly on kits, new releases and OOP's , paints, styrene, glue , etc etc etc, 3-5K isn't that crazy, especially if it allows you to produce models that have never been done before, or re-pop that classic OOP you've been pining for . Think of the long term savings.. it becomes a no brainer. Resin casting would become almost unnecessary..

Of course, that has to take into consideration all the up-front costs: A high-resolution 3D printer will never likely come at all cheap--and a computer with speed, RAM and hard-drive capability enough to handle all the necessarily HUGE files won't either, most likely. Then, of course there would be the cost of the software package--nobody's gonna exactly give those away.

And, I haven't even adressed the learning curve.

Art

[Art Anderson]

  On 10/26/2013 at 10:19 PM, Bennyg said:

Surely the cad plans from the factory would be the go for model companies. I thought that's what moebius used for the prostar and lonestar. Also, tamiya is about to release the laferarri at about the same time as the real one hits the road, not many of those exist and is still undergoing testing in real life so it surely would be a lot of computer trickery helping.

Ben

Ben,

ASSUMING that CAD files do in fact exist (which they most assuredly don't, at the automakers, for cars designed and produced before CAD was even dreamed about. In fact, original factory drawings for say, 1952-54 Hudsons don't, or if they do, no one knows where they might be. After all, Hudson merged with Nash into American Motors almost 60 years ago--and Hudsons became little more than re-trimmed Nash Ambassadors with Hudson 6-cyl engines--no need likely ever seen for archiving all those drawings in case somebody might want to do a model kit of one way out there in the 21st Century.

Art

[Luc Janssens]

  On 11/2/2013 at 6:08 AM, Art Anderson said:

Of course, that has to take into consideration all the up-front costs: A high-resolution 3D printer will never likely come at all cheap--and a computer with speed, RAM and hard-drive capability enough to handle all the necessarily HUGE files won't either, most likely. Then, of course there would be the cost of the software package--nobody's gonna exactly give those away.

And, I haven't even adressed the learning curve.

Art

It's a very exiting technology but unless you're part of a big toy manufacturer which can spread the investment over several product-lines, it's far too expensive for such a niche market as ours, some die hard modelers would pay premium for model kits, but doubt that the weekend modeller will follow and those guys still buy the bulk of the kits.

[Bennyg]

  On 11/2/2013 at 6:12 AM, Art Anderson said:

Ben,

ASSUMING that CAD files do in fact exist (which they most assuredly don't, at the automakers, for cars designed and produced before CAD was even dreamed about. In fact, original factory drawings for say, 1952-54 Hudsons don't, or if they do, no one knows where they might be. After all, Hudson merged with Nash into American Motors almost 60 years ago--and Hudsons became little more than re-trimmed Nash Ambassadors with Hudson 6-cyl engines--no need likely ever seen for archiving all those drawings in case somebody might want to do a model kit of one way out there in the 21st Century.

Art

Fair call. CAD files for the new stuff I guess, and real cars and trucks for the older ones. I was thinking of new stuff. So I'm assuming that new cars and trucks would be easier to produce than pre cad vehicles. That's why the moebius lonestar and prostar and tamiya laferarri came to mind.

Ben

Edited November 2, 2013 by Bennyg

[charlie8575]

  On 11/2/2013 at 4:18 AM, Tom Geiger said:

It's labor but a different discipline. It's pretty much high end CAD designing on a computer rather than by hand. Keep in mind that the folks who can actually produce the CAD work are very skilled.

Any cost savings over the old methods, adjusted for inflation, won't make kits cheaper in the future. But it will keep them affordable and within reach.

Tom's assessment regarding cost is probably fairly accurate, but, as we've all seen, sometimes costs of raw inputs and their accessories (in our case, the 3D printers, computers, scanners and so forth) can drop dramatically over time, and while other factors (cost of plastic, design and production labor, etc.), might go up and balance out any of those savings, the actual cost of the product will probably stay fairly stable.

Does that mean that as these advanced products come into more common use that prices won't drop? Not necessarily, but there are too many other factors to count in, including a degree of uncertainty about the future of some of the devices and the industry we propose they serve to be able to make meaningful predictions. Realistically, the best we can hope for is stabilizing prices, perhaps with a slight down-tick.

Charlie Larkin

[hpiguy]

This would be a great multi-part subject article for the print magazine.

Since Moebius participates in this forum, and they put out amazing kits of all types, I think they'd be a great manufacturer to have in the article.

[charlie8575]

  On 11/2/2013 at 6:43 PM, hpiguy said:

This would be a great multi-part subject article for the print magazine.

Since Moebius participates in this forum, and they put out amazing kits of all types, I think they'd be a great manufacturer to have in the article.

I agree; this would make an interesting article. So much has changed since one of these types of articles was last done, that it would be interesting to see what's new and what's happening now.

Charlie Larkin

[sjordan2]

Let's not forget (as has been discussed many times before) that, in the near term, third party sources like an improved Shapeways, with the necessary skills and equipment, can serve us in the 3D-printing aftermarket, along the lines of today's resin casters. I don't see home applications or truly affordable advanced equipment in the picture for many years to come, and certainly not useful for many but advanced computer artists. How many of us on this forum are highly skilled in CAD or even Photoshop? I know there are several, but I think they make up only a minority of us who are clamoring for 3D printers.

[Tom Geiger]

  On 11/2/2013 at 6:29 PM, charlie8575 said:

Tom's assessment regarding cost is probably fairly accurate, but, as we've all seen, sometimes costs of raw inputs and their accessories (in our case, the 3D printers, computers, scanners and so forth) can drop dramatically over time, and while other factors (cost of plastic, design and production labor, etc.), might go up and balance out any of those savings, the actual cost of the product will probably stay fairly stable.

Does that mean that as these advanced products come into more common use that prices won't drop? Not necessarily, but there are too many other factors to count in, including a degree of uncertainty about the future of some of the devices and the industry we propose they serve to be able to make meaningful predictions. Realistically, the best we can hope for is stabilizing prices, perhaps with a slight down-tick.

Charlie Larkin

Think about what happened when domestic kit manufacturing ceased and went to China. We didn't see a noticeable drop in kit prices, but due to better skills and newer factories and equipment, kit quality actually went up. With lower labor costs, we saw parts in separate bags and things like cardboard carefully taped in place to protect convertible windshield frames. And this was offset by higher transportation costs, due to distance and fuel increases, as well as higher raw material costs for petroleum based plastics.

And the cheese is moved again. With the success in China, their labor force is getting more astute. They are demanding higher wages so that they can become consumers of the stuff they produce. Just like when Henry Ford realized that the men assembling Fords needed the means to own one of their own!

So again we're counting on technology and better manufacturing practices to cost less and be more efficient. And we'll need to sell more units to spread the labor costs across. Will kit production eventually have to move to lower cost areas like Viet Nam and Pakistan? Time will tell.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Tom Geiger

[KingSix]

I think you guys are missing the point in regards to 3-D printing. There is a whole section of the industry, dedicated to the idea of "one in every home". Or think about it this way. I have a friend , who happens to be a "part time" gunsmith. He has a small Mori Seiki , a Bridgeport , a small blast cabinet and a pretty wide assortment of hand tools specific to the trade. Maybe a total of 10k invested. he can turn out a firearm that will outperform, outclass and look better than anything you can find on the shelf. Now this requires skill, knowledge of CNC programming & more than an average knowledge of machine work. he makes quite a good "living" just producing firearms , with only 10k invested. Now, lets look at 3-D printing. This IS designed to be user friendly, to be stand alone. I'm not sure where you guys seem to be getting the idea of " Computers with the RAM and hard drives big enough to handle the HUGE files ( I'm still trying to wrap my head around that comment ) etc etc " There are no "HUGE" files, you don't even need a computer to operate a 3-D printer. The ones I have experience with are designed to be stand alone, so there goes that theory. It won't take long for the secondary industry of "canned" programs to take off. That means you buy the copy of the program, bring it home, plug it into your 3-D printer and go. You can now make parts, pieces etc etc to your hearts content. No need for learning CAD, Photoshop or any other program that was mentioned. If you can plug in a memory stick and turn a switch off and on, you're good to go. Now, if you want to actually design your own models, that's an entirely different story. You will need to become more educated in CAD at the very least. But CAD isn't difficult at all , trust me if this dumb old Marine Corps Grunt can learn it, you can too. So back to my point.. for a minimum of say, 3k for a printer, then you find a person willing to make the programs for you maybe a $200 or so for a design, you can churn out bodies parts, etc etc much faster and more efficiently than any resin caster can. Do you see where this is going ? Now, let technology do it's thing over the next 5-10 years, you'll be able to make your own kits its at home. Couple that with an already dying market ( modeling ) the big companies won't be able to hang. It seems to me to be a win win situation. No longer held down to companies that only make "kits that appeal to the masses" and now you can actually build kits that interest the smaller segments, or even just YOU.

Edited November 2, 2013 by KingSix

[Harry P.]

  On 11/2/2013 at 7:36 PM, KingSix said:

I think you guys are missing the point in regards to 3-D printing. There is a whole section of the industry, dedicated to the idea of "one in every home". Or think about it this way. I have a friend , who happens to be a "part time" gunsmith. He has a small Mori Seiki , a Bridgeport , a small blast cabinet and a pretty wide assortment of hand tools specific to the trade. Maybe a total of 10k invested. he can turn out a firearm that will outperform, outclass and look better than anything you can find on the shelf. Now this requires skill, knowledge of CNC programming & more than an average knowledge of machine work. he makes quite a good "living" just producing firearms , with only 10k invested. Now, lets look at 3-D printing. This IS designed to be user friendly, to be stand alone. I'm not sure where you guys seem to be getting the idea of " Computers with the RAM and hard drives big enough to handle the HUGE files ( I'm still trying to wrap my head around that comment ) etc etc " There are no "HUGE" files, you don't even need a computer to operate a 3-D printer. The ones I have experience with are designed to be stand alone, so there goes that theory. It won't take long for the secondary industry of "canned" programs to take off. That means you buy the copy of the program, bring it home, plug it into your 3-D printer and go. You can now make parts, pieces etc etc to your hearts content. No need for learning CAD, Photoshop or any other program that was mentioned. If you can plug in a memory stick and turn a switch off and on, you're good to go. Now, if you want to actually design your own models, that's an entirely different story. You will need to become more educated in CAD at the very least. But CAD isn't difficult at all , trust me if this dumb old Marine Corps Grunt can learn it, you can too. So back to my point.. for a minimum of say, 3k for a printer, then you find a person willing to make the programs for you maybe a $200 or so for a design, you can churn out bodies parts, etc etc much faster and more efficiently than any resin caster can. Do you see where this is going ? Now, let technology do it's thing over the next 5-10 years, you'll be able to make your own kits its at home. Couple that with an already dying market ( modeling ) the big companies won't be able to hang. It seems to me to be a win win situation. No longer held down to companies that only make "kits that appeal to the masses" and now you can actually build kits that interest the smaller segments, or even just YOU.

Yup.

3-D printing is going to be very user-friendly, very popular and very common in a few short years. The only reason why it's still not commonplace is that the technology is new enough that costs haven't dropped to consumer-friendly levels yet. But that will change soon enough... the prices will come down just like they do for all new technologies. When flat-screen TVs, VCRs, microwave ovens, camcorders, computers, etc., etc., were new, they were expensive... but as time went on the prices kept dropping until they weren't just toys for the rich, but common in most American homes. 3-D printing will follow the same path.

I can see where a new "kit" would consist not of a bunch of injection-molded parts in a box, but as a piece of software that you buy via download (the way we download music or apps) and output the file at home, on your 3-D printer. Or you take the file to your local print center (think UPS store, OfficeMax, etc.) and output the file there if you don't own your own printer. Think of it: the entire model kit industry would change. No more giant, expensive injection-molding machines, no big factories to house them, no more cutting steel tooling, no more packaging, warehousing, distributing, etc. A new "kit" would come from the creator of the file to you completely electronically.

If that sounds farfetched, think about this: Just a few short years ago, we would not have thought that one day we would buy music or books by downloading electronic files and playing music on an Ipod or reading a book on a Kindle or Nook. But today that's completely commonplace and "normal."

3-D printing is going to be the same. And that day is closer than many of you think.

[KingSix]

And I personally can not wait .. think of the possibilities !!

[sjordan2]

I'm bookmarking this, and I'll come back in five years to see where all of this may be. I'm betting that in five years there will not be a high-quality home 3D printing system that can produce satisfactory results for over 75% of car modelers, with most not able or willing to master the software.

Edited November 2, 2013 by sjordan2