Luc Janssens Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I'm content when you don't notice the mistakes or tooling/design compromises, without taking a caliper, ruler, making templates or use some other measuring device. I still remember as a early teen; un-boxing the Airfix/Mpc General Lee kit, and noticing the wrong backlite and hoping Monogram would release a '69 Charger as the next kit in their 1/24th scale Muscle car series....
Jordan White Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 What's the matter with expecting more accuracy in the age of 3D scanning and CAD drawings? If video game companies can recreate cars in a digital form that are accurate down to the warning labels, then it seems that a company that makes physical 3D representations could create something that has at the very least the same dimensions as the 1:1, but correctly scaled down.
Dave Van Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 What's the matter with expecting more accuracy in the age of 3D scanning and CAD drawings? If video game companies can recreate cars in a digital form that are accurate down to the warning labels, then it seems that a company that makes physical 3D representations could create something that has at the very least the same dimensions as the 1:1, but correctly scaled down. A few issues here........ There are no CAD drawings for 1990 Mustangs or 1976 Torino's. 3D scanning is real.....and REALLY expensive for a 1/1 car.......WAY to costly for a plastic model car that they hope will sell 8,000 copies the first year. How many much costlier WoW video games do they sell??? scanning a person or small item is easy compared to a car....not counting the logistics of getting a real car to a scanner big enough to scan a car. Add to it if a quickly moving character in a video game has a arm 1mm too long....no one can see it......not like a plastic model you can hold and measure to death. So why in this high tech world are we getting small errors when JoHan hit it so many times right??? Experience........Big staffs of craftsman making parts in wood pattern in 1/10 scale.....you see problems before they even get to 1/25 size. This was old world craftsmanship that is not....maybe CAN NOT be done any longer. Find old photos of AMT's office with a huge room full of guys drawing plans, making wood buck patterns and reviewing parts. Model companies have some great folks working for them.....I've worked with some of them.....but there is power in numbers, Today's model companies are really micro companies in today's world......a handful of dedicated folks working hard to make a few kits while not going broke doing it.
Tom Geiger Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 What's the matter with expecting more accuracy in the age of 3D scanning and CAD drawings? If video game companies can recreate cars in a digital form that are accurate down to the warning labels, then it seems that a company that makes physical 3D representations could create something that has at the very least the same dimensions as the 1:1, but correctly scaled down. Models have benefitted greatly from the age of CAD generated tooling. Just look at any of the recent offerings from Revell or Moebius. But it comes down to budget. The model company budgets for each new kit is very low, in fact I'm amazed that they get it done for those numbers. On the other hand video game companies have millions of dollars to invest! So they can spend a lot more on their product. In fact these companies have so much money that they sponsor their own professional game teams. A friend of mine's daughter is a paid professional player. And the good ones make six figures!
D. Battista Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting better products... but like I said, I really do think they are trying to do better... Just seems you hear more complaining and not enough good input about the good stuff that is going on in this hobby..!
Thatswhatshesaid Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 What's the matter with expecting more accuracy in the age of 3D scanning and CAD drawings? If video game companies can recreate cars in a digital form that are accurate down to the warning labels, then it seems that a company that makes physical 3D representations could create something that has at the very least the same dimensions as the 1:1, but correctly scaled down. Even if a 100% accurate kit was produced there would still be complaining. Some people would be unhappy in the trim level or no stock parts or not the engine they wanted or it's molded in gray.
High octane Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 You got that right Jake, as there are cry babies everywhere who will complain about anything just for the sake of complaining.
Kennyboy Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 A lot of the whining and complaining just gets louder the more model companies increase the amount of a new kit. For instance, when they are charging $23.00 to $28.00 retail for a kit that has the quality of the same model from the past that was to be had for around $10.00.........let the ear opera begin!
Thatswhatshesaid Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 A lot of the whining and complaining just gets louder the more model companies increase the amount of a new kit. For instance, when they are charging $23.00 to $28.00 retail for a kit that has the quality of the same model from the past that was to be had for around $10.00.........let the ear opera begin! The price of models has been beaten to death so I won't go there. But putting out a kit with a noticeable flaw is one thing, but calling a kit a bad choice (see new snap DOH kit or Revell snappers) because it's not a full detail or doesn't have multiple parts for various versions doesn't make it a failure or a bad idea. The world of modeling goes beyond this board and beyond just cars. It seems like some people think the modeling world begins and ends at classic cars and adult modelers. It doesn't. With all the constant complaining on here about kits it seems like no matter what a company puts out they can't win.
Thatswhatshesaid Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 You got that right Jake, as there are cry babies everywhere who will complain about anything just for the sake of complaining. You can't please all the people all the time. Even if a model company put out a flawless kit with all the options under the sun people will still complain because it would cost too much.
D. Battista Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 I generally stay out of such discussions .... But ... I thoroughly enjoy what Revell has brought to the table over the last few year and look forward to what is to come in the future . That being said , I refuse to allow them to slide on the quality of the chrome that has gone downhill since the release of the '48 Ford . I opened 4 different '57 Fords to find that every one of the rear bumpers had a thick mold line on the right side , ending with a string of chrome about 3/4 of an inch long , still attached to the bumper . The rest of the parts chrome appeared to be blobbed on . After stripping it , I realized why . It was put on thick to cover up mold lines that were extremely obvious . Even the windshield wipers and door handles , tiny as they are , had them ! This same problem holds true with the '62 Vette Gasser kits .I would expect this situation to exist on a kit that has been repopped over several decades of time . A new release , no , I'm sorry , there are no excuses for this , whatsoever . And yes , before someone states the old " we're modelers " saw .... These are new releases , and there is no way on God's green earth that I should have to strip the chrome and redo it , especially for the price that I am paying for said kits . As far as I'm concerned , this is a lack of quality control , plain and simple , and needs to be addressed ...... I agree with you on that part of QC... there should not be those type of issues in a new release....and it's a hassle to keep returning a kit for bad chrome ,or partially filled parts, or overfilled parts, and dirt in the base coat under chrome parts. That's QC on the packaging line and should not be passed as a sellable product..! I was just referring to the inaccuracies and light detailing designs of model kits... IMO...I think they are doing a good job at putting out new release stuff...even if there are some mistakes. Model kit design has never been perfect ...and IMO it will never be perfect. I'm just thankful for what is offered in what really is a micro business..! A few issues here........ There are no CAD drawings for 1990 Mustangs or 1976 Torino's. 3D scanning is real.....and REALLY expensive for a 1/1 car.......WAY to costly for a plastic model car that they hope will sell 8,000 copies the first year. How many much costlier WoW video games do they sell??? scanning a person or small item is easy compared to a car....not counting the logistics of getting a real car to a scanner big enough to scan a car. Add to it if a quickly moving character in a video game has a arm 1mm too long....no one can see it......not like a plastic model you can hold and measure to death. So why in this high tech world are we getting small errors when JoHan hit it so many times right??? Experience........Big staffs of craftsman making parts in wood pattern in 1/10 scale.....you see problems before they even get to 1/25 size. This was old world craftsmanship that is not....maybe CAN NOT be done any longer. Find old photos of AMT's office with a huge room full of guys drawing plans, making wood buck patterns and reviewing parts. Model companies have some great folks working for them.....I've worked with some of them.....but there is power in numbers, Today's model companies are really micro companies in today's world......a handful of dedicated folks working hard to make a few kits while not going broke doing it. And I like what Dave said.....
Tom Geiger Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 You can't please all the people all the time. Even if a model company put out a flawless kit with all the options under the sun people will still complain because it would cost too much. My father used to say, "Some folks just enjoy the smell of their own farts." Kinda fitting on those complaint threads. My favorite... there will be a rant that the manufacturers are not doing anything to attract kids to the hobby. Then Revell announced a couple of simple kits aimed precisely at that market, and the rant began that the kits weren't complex enough for the adults. Can't have it both ways!
Thatswhatshesaid Posted October 5, 2014 Posted October 5, 2014 My father used to say, "Some folks just enjoy the smell of their own farts." Kinda fitting on those complaint threads. My favorite... there will be a rant that the manufacturers are not doing anything to attract kids to the hobby. Then Revell announced a couple of simple kits aimed precisely at that market, and the rant began that the kits weren't complex enough for the adults. Can't have it both ways! Exactly!! Even after it was pointed out that adults were not the target market the ranting continued!!
keyser Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Actually, Harry couldn't grasp that kids like accomplishment, hence Build and play. Emphasis on building. Play secondary. To attract kids, need current stuff. 2015 Mustang awesome, as is 2015 C7 (tba). However, the R8 is imminently due to be replaced, as is another B&P. The "new" Raptor is 2010-2011 generation, which should get to us about the time the new alloy 2015 Raptor arrives. And the Crown Vic, one done to death, as a new tool snap? Really? And Dave V has said what many have, errors are errors. It isn't a rant. It is wrong. Not much reason for details that are huge to be wrong. QC in dimensional/appearance should be Job 1. ALWAYS. It's a model company, not a "looks good to me", or "Meh, they'll buy it" company. So Tom, it's more of "smelling someone else's farts instead of nice fresh styrene when you open a box". Not my problem, until I buy a kit that needs more work than if I just converted one on my own. 57 BelAir Cvt. I bought it as I wanted one, even after I canceled order based on screwed up doorsill. It was warped too. So I bought a kit with known flaws I decided to fix, and was faced with more hours I could spend elsewhere. Surprise and delight. That's what a modeler wants, a movie goer wants, etc. It's entertainment. When it ceases to be so, and turns into work, I'm out. Life's far too short. Edited October 6, 2014 by keyser
johnbuzzed Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 I will continue to beat the horse. I think none of us here expect to see a perfect kit of any type. Some are better than others. But, I think that we also expect to open a box to see a kit that is relatively free of manufacturing flaws (come on- plastic has been electroplated for years, can't you get it right?) and has correct overall dimensions and contours. Is that wrong?
Harry P. Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Actually, Harry couldn't grasp that kids like accomplishment, hence Build and play. I think you're the one that can't grasp the concept. There is no need to emphasize the "build" aspect. The fact that you have to build a kit isn't a selling point, it's a given. EVERY kit needs to be built. But not every kit is meant to be played with after you assemble it. The "play" part is the selling point.
Thatswhatshesaid Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Actually, Harry couldn't grasp that kids like accomplishment, hence Build and play. Emphasis on building. Play secondary. To attract kids, need current stuff. 2015 Mustang awesome, as is 2015 C7 (tba). However, the R8 is imminently due to be replaced, as is another B&P. The "new" Raptor is 2010-2011 generation, which should get to us about the time the new alloy 2015 Raptor arrives. And the Crown Vic, one done to death, as a new tool snap? Really? And Dave V has said what many have, errors are errors. It isn't a rant. It is wrong. Not much reason for details that are huge to be wrong. QC in dimensional/appearance should be Job 1. ALWAYS. It's a model company, not a "looks good to me", or "Meh, they'll buy it" company. So Tom, it's more of "smelling someone else's farts instead of nice fresh styrene when you open a box". Not my problem, until I buy a kit that needs more work than if I just converted one on my own. 57 BelAir Cvt. I bought it as I wanted one, even after I canceled order based on screwed up doorsill. It was warped too. So I bought a kit with known flaws I decided to fix, and was faced with more hours I could spend elsewhere. Surprise and delight. That's what a modeler wants, a movie goer wants, etc. It's entertainment. When it ceases to be so, and turns into work, I'm out. Life's far too short. Major flaws are in excusable, I agree there. But it's the micro nit picking that gets annoying. No model is perfect but is it really necessary to gripe about kits that are .00001 % not perfect? How about the people that gripe and won't buy a kit because it doesn't have the options they want? Or when they do add extra parts people complain that it costs too much. This board has just come down to so much not picking and 'it should all be about us car guys'. This board is not fun most of the time because it's just whining and crying. If people are so unhappy with the kits being produced and think it's so easy to just put out flawless kits of subjects that five people will buy. Then do it. Start a model company. Get a bunch of investors, and start pumping out all these 'if it was kitted it would fly off the shelf' models everyone supposedly wants. Then kit everything else that people request. Then sell them cheaper than your competition because current prices are too high. Bet you can't do it and make a profit.
keyser Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) I think you're the one that can't grasp the concept. There is no need to emphasize the "build" aspect. The fact that you have to build a kit isn't a selling point, it's a given. EVERY kit needs to be built. But not every kit is meant to be played with after you assemble it. The "play" part is the selling point. You called them toys Try to remember all those weeks ago. I've never expected, nor has anyone I know, a "perfect" kit. The "you go build one" saw is hyperbolic, and irrelevant. I don't care options. I've got 1000's of kits, resin, rebuilders, whatever. I don't need any new kits. But if they interest me, I'll buy them. Lots of nice new issues, modified re-issues. Shelby convertible, Merc woody (people complained about it), various Deuces, Manx, FE dragsters, double kits,.... Get door lines correct. Get windshields, roofs, cowls correct. Revell, AMT, MPC, Lindberg, Monogram, Ertl, RC2 Round 2 all have done it to various degrees on myriads of kits. 57 Bel-Air convert delayed for many months for X-brace you can't see, and most don't care. But window sill is wrong? Requires fixing sill (not hard), trim on top of door (sl harder), and interior panel. That isn't ".00001 % not perfect". It's a waste of time "sniffing someone elses farts" in a box. Edited October 8, 2014 by keyser
southpier Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 farts are magical. they're like snowflakes: all different, yet even in a crowded elevator, there's a distinctive knowledge of what just happened. I like to think of it as one of those special moments in the day, not to dwell upon, but just to take pause why we're really here.
Chuck Kourouklis Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) WOW. It's like a checklist, this thread. Just five days shy of a clean 18 months since I've lined all this up and shot it down in one place, ya got plainly visible inaccuracies written off at the "micrometer" level (#6, High-friction Slippery Slopes), ya got criticism of major flaws herded together with people complaining about option levels (#2, False Equivalencies), ya got "crybabies" and "whining" as infantile variations on the whole name-calling exercise (#10, "Rivet-counters"), ya got supposed inevitable complaints about a 100% flawless kit recalling the classic "perfect kit" misdirection (#1), and ya even got a sprinkling of "are you a MODELER or not" (#3, Credential-challenging). Which I guess leads to the conundrum of that whole "Failed Tactics" exercise: if somebody had the capacity to understand the deficiencies in these approaches after you drew him a picture, he'd probably have the sense not to use them in the first place. Let's just set aside for a minute how… typical the whole "smell your farts" angle is. Look at the instantaneous, contemptuous ease with which keyser flipped that whole analogy around to something FAR more truthful. This is the difference between an actual point, and those sad little shams upon which the most basic logic visits a rough, prison-cell kind of justice. Edited October 8, 2014 by Chuck Kourouklis
drball Posted October 8, 2014 Posted October 8, 2014 I think part of the problem here is some people think their own farts don't stink. My father used to say, "Some folks just enjoy the smell of their own farts." Kinda fitting on those complaint threads. My favorite... there will be a rant that the manufacturers are not doing anything to attract kids to the hobby. Then Revell announced a couple of simple kits aimed precisely at that market, and the rant began that the kits weren't complex enough for the adults. Can't have it both ways!
keyser Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) farts are magical. they're like snowflakes: all different, yet even in a crowded elevator, there's a distinctive knowledge of what just happened. I like to think of it as one of those special moments in the day, not to dwell upon, but just to take pause why we're really here. I think part of the problem here is some people think their own farts don't stink. I love the smell of farts in the morning. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like . . . movement. <-props JBW Added reference for quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_100_Years...100_Movie_Quotes Edited October 9, 2014 by keyser
keyser Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 kind of smelled like...movement. jb Fixed it. Good catch.
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