W-409 Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Oh Nico, your such an old traditionalist! Well - that's what I was grown up with... My dad has never had any of those Pro Touring etc things, and he never will either. I forgot to add the only exeption to my last post: Only case where modern technology is OK in my opinion, is Drag Race cars. Luckily they never have big wheels and low profile tires and I'm perfectly fine with for example electric water pump and that kind of parts in Drag Car engines. Anyway those engines must still look like an engine, not so that when the hood is open, all you see is plastic.
afx Posted February 16, 2015 Author Posted February 16, 2015 If you take a ’63 Vette and hang it on a C4 chassis, engine and running gear is it still a ’63 Vette? It’s still cool, fast and handles like a dream but in my mind it has transformed into something else.
Longbox55 Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Well, yes and no. People tend to forget that cars that are old-timey now were once brandy-damm-new, and they got driven on long trips all the time. A correctly restored old vehicle is actually quite reliable and comfortable. That comes up on the Chevy/GMC truck forum I belong to. Someone gets a stock truck. wants to know how to make it reliable, and invariably, they are given the whole "you HAVE to put IFS, power brakes, power steering, modern V8, disk brakes, etc, etc" to make them "safe" for todays roads. I say hogwash. My daily is a '55 Chevy 3200, stock brakes with the original single circuit master cylinder, stock manual steering, stock leak spring suspension, it performs just fine on the highway. Granted, I did make a few alterations to improve the performance, radial tires, gas shocks and sway bars, FF code friction, plus a factory optional overdrive trans and a few hop up mods on the original 6 cylinder, but overall, the truck is still basically stock.
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Well, yes and no. People tend to forget that cars that are old-timey now were once brandy-damm-new, and they got driven on long trips all the time. A correctly restored old vehicle is actually quite reliable and comfortable. If that were true then we'd still be using that technology. Instead we have independent suspension, rack & pinion steering, AC, heat, radio, defrosters etc. Not to get into a pointless argument, but when I was a kid, we had a '51 Studebaker, a '55 Olds convertible and later a '63 (which I still have). They were all real cars, with independent front suspension, power brakes, heat that would keep you warm in a blizzard, and power seats and radios in the two Oldsmobiles. Every summer we made the trek from wherever we lived at the time (the mid west, southern and east coast US) to well up the Canadian east coast. Not one single breakdown, tow...nothin'. Early in my parents' marriage (and early in my life) my father had a '48 Ford he drove all over the country in his job as a roving construction engineer. He always got to the job sites, and he always got home. Now granted, a lot of "restored" cars are unreliable trailer queens you couldn't drive across town. But so are a lot of fairly recent used-cars that have been "repaired" and "maintained" by chimps. Old vehicles prepared correctly by competent mechanics to function as-new (and possibly a few rational upgrades like a Pertronix ignition system...that eliminates the need for periodic point adjustment...hidden in the OEM distributor) are entirely use-able as transportation. Read Longbox 55's post directly above this one. Man knows what he's talking about. Edited February 17, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy
Bernard Kron Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) For what it's worth, I have a British Racing Green Series 1 Frogeye (Bugeye in the USA) Sprite with a highly tuned 116 hp motor under its all-steel (tilt forward) hood. The smartest things I ever did when I was building it were to 1) run a modern A-Series motor overbored to 1348 cc, 2) install a Datsun B210 5-speed, 3) mount Triumph Spitfire front disc brakes, 4) install progressive rate front springs and 5) install a limited slip differential. The dumbest thing I ever did to it was install Heim joints in the rear suspension... pandering to my worst boy-racer instincts. The car maintains the spirit of the original but is now practical to drive on the highway and is powerful and well-behaved enough to almost pass as a modern car despite the fact that it's 65 years old and weighs under 1500 pounds. Despite all this seeming heresy in my 1:1 world, I still enjoy modeling hot rods that are as period correct as my stash of parts and inherent laziness will allow. Edited February 17, 2015 by Bernard Kron
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Bernard, your Sprite sounds like a car built in the true early spirit of hot-rodding. Intelligent swaps and upgrades, but keeping the overall flavor of the vehicle intact. Very cool little car, I'm sure.
High octane Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I hafta agree with your line of thinking AFX, even though I'm not a "numbers matching" purist I am definitely Day 2 "old school."
turbo nova Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) as a shop owner I havent had anyone want a true vintage build in years, they are even more impractical and frankly not as much fun. I also havent had much intrest in anything prior to 55 in years. The term restored is the most misunderstood/misused words in the industry, if it isnt factory correct it isnt restored would also like to add I love vintage hot rods and have a stash of flatties and a couple 331 cad's and a nailhead but I just dont fit in early iron that well, my 29 rpu has had a ton of work done just to get room without stretching it and ruining the lines and proportions. Edited February 17, 2015 by turbo nova
Bernard Kron Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 as a shop owner I havent had anyone want a true vintage build in years, they are even more impractical and frankly not as much fun. I also havent had much intrest in anything prior to 55 in years... Always good to hear from someone in the profession. For me this underscores the difference between what we can do as modelers and what necessity, budgets and practicality imposes on us in the 1:1 world. I'm especially interested in your last comment about pre-'55 cars. As someone who builds almost exclusively pre-'55, I've noticed far more interest in more modern but nostalgic cars, for example the muscle car era, than the stuff I do. This is to be expected as the generations move on and nostalgia finds its home in more recent decades. But it's more affordable and practical to be a purist in scale than in the real world!
turbo nova Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Always good to hear from someone in the profession. For me this underscores the difference between what we can do as modelers and what necessity, budgets and practicality imposes on us in the 1:1 world. I'm especially interested in your last comment about pre-'55 cars. As someone who builds almost exclusively pre-'55, I've noticed far more interest in more modern but nostalgic cars, for example the muscle car era, than the stuff I do. This is to be expected as the generations move on and nostalgia finds its home in more recent decades. But it's more affordable and practical to be a purist in scale than in the real world! for me its just a practicality thing, I own a bunch of cars from finished to projects and the 29 is like a go kart but not comfortable at all and Im not that big. The vast majority of my stuff in the shop is muscle cars, full updated suspensions, air, efi, and as of late big power. I am keeping an eye open for a 32 5w though, thats why I kept the cad engine's
lordairgtar Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 When I look under a ’32 Ford, I want to see buggy springs not coil overs. And I want the same thing from the kits I buy, I want period parts. They don’t all have to be stock parts but I want them to be of the time period. Maybe it’s my age bias (I'm AARP eligible). What is your opinion? Me being 60 years old, I have to say that coil overs actually were used on rods in the late 50s and early 60s, so it is period correct. Jag rear ends wound up under a lot of rods too. A older lady in my car club has a British Ford sedan from the early 60s with a modern Ford Pinto engine in it...twice the power as that old Brit iron lump. Her husband had a Ford Anglia with a 350 Chevy in it.
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Me being 60 years old, I have to say that coil overs actually were used on rods in the late 50s and early 60s, so it is period correct. Jag rear ends wound up under a lot of rods too. Both excellent points. Look thru old Hot Rod and Car Craft mags to see 'em. And I'd forgotten...we have a client with a '32 3-window all-steel car built in SoCal in the early '60s with torsion-bar Jag XK-E FRONT suspension. And it's got semi-elliptic springs and a Dana out back! If something could possibly be in a junkyard, chances are somebody used it on a rod at one time or another. Edited February 17, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy
afx Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I’m glad we have some within the industry commenting and I get why people ask for it and why as shop owners you build it for them. And I get that in hot rodding there really are no rules, if it makes it go faster bolt it on. But at some point if all you are left with is the original car's silhouette I think you have lost sight with the purpose of bringing the car back to life. Edited February 17, 2015 by afx
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I’m glad we have some within the industry commenting and I get why people ask for it and why as shop owners you build it for them. And I get that in hot rodding there really are no rules, if it makes it go faster bolt it on. But at some point if all you are left with is the original car's silhouette I think you have lost sight with the purpose of bringing the car back to life. I agree in principle. I went to work with the shop where I am now specifically to build period and "traditional" cars. BUT, what I'm building for them at the moment is a '47 Caddy convertible with a Camaro front frame clip, an LS engine and 4L80 gearbox, a bunch of onboard electronics including EFI, a mostly late-model Caddy interior, and a Ford 9" in the rear. NOT the way I'd build it if I were paying the bills to have it done...but that's the point. If you want to stay in business, you have to give people what they want...to a certain extent. And this particular car has been hacked and bodged so badly by everyone who's ever touched it, a straight restoration would cost twice as much as a resto-mod job. We DO try to influence the way our cars get built and the style of the mods, as everything that comes out of the shop is a reflection of just what we do. We don't really want to be doing resto-mods, and we're trying to steer the Caddy build in a direction that respects the elegance of the original car and stays far away from the billet-bling thing. Edited February 17, 2015 by Ace-Garageguy
afx Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 And as a model builder if you take all the original parts and set them aside and build it with modern parts what have you learned about the original subject and why the car was significant?
Jantrix Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 . And this particular car has been hacked and bodged so badly by everyone who's ever touched it, a straight restoration would cost twice as much as a resto-mod job. This was my original point. Sometimes its just not feasible or possible, to restore a car to period correctness. I once asked a fella with a show car custom 30's Huppmobile, why he felt it was necessary to customize such a rare car. His reply, "for lack of available parts to restore." Kinda hard to argue with that.
Ace-Garageguy Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Yes, and I'd rather see some of those beautiful old profiles still running down the road, even with late-model guts, than see them melted down to make Chinese steel.
Bernard Kron Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I agree in principle. I went to work with the shop where I am now specifically to build period and "traditional" cars. BUT, what I'm building for them at the moment is a '47 Caddy convertible with a Camaro front frame clip, an LS engine and 4L80 gearbox, a bunch of onboard electronics including EFI, a mostly late-model Caddy interior, and a Ford 9" in the rear. ...We DO try to influence the way our cars get built and the style of the mods, as everything that comes out of the shop is a reflection of just what we do. We don't really want to be doing resto-mods, and we're trying to steer the Caddy build in a direction that respects the elegance of the original car and stays far away from the billet-bling thing. Most of what you list is relatively invisible, but,assuming the exterior styling and color remain sensitive to the period of the original car, the two visible areas that would be of concern would be the under-hood presentation of the motor and the treatment of the modern interior pieces. Based on what I've seen up to now, both would present enormous challenges to get right and not clash with a period exterior. In fact, IMHO, if you guys do find a solution it would be important work towards the advancement of the Resto-Mod aesthetic. Last year I collaborated with a good friend on doing an AMT '39 Ford Tudor in a hybrid Traditional/Modern way. He is a true post-90's Street Rod modeler and has done exceptional and original work in that vein, His finished models stand out in that regard and it's helped him win quite a few contests with them But he's suffering from massive builders block in his car modeling which has lasted several years. Our collaboration was intended to tried to break through it. In any case we have yet to see the project to completion but it certainly started out promisingly. We chopped and sectioned the body, gave it slanted B-pillars and ran the oversized steelies and rubber band tires from the AMT Black Force. My friend retained the '39 Ford grill but reshaped it somewhat to blend in the profile of the front fender valances. But the challenge came as we confronted the interior and the motor. I wanted to use a modern motor but with the mechanical look of the past. I wanted to find a way to use exposed injectors and cam boxes on something like a Corvette LS1, without the blobs of plastic fairings which are so common now. The interior was also similarly challenging, coming up with something modern and elegant but still in keeping with the exterior. Unfortunately the builders block thing can be contagious and I bombed out while working in this area and my friend took the bait, putti9ng the project back on hold. Recently we discussed starting it up again... But this is definitely an example of the challenges we face in developing a new vernacular for an old tradition. Edited February 17, 2015 by Bernard Kron
Guest Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Everyone has their own definition of restoration. Some feel it's make it like it came originally. Others feel it's make it like new, only better. Mine is the latter. Neither is right or wrong. As long as the owner likes it and it doesn't go into the scrap pile, it's good IMO. There's plenty of both styles to go around. They don't all have to look like they just rolled off the showroom floor. How boring would that be to look at the same cars in different colors? For some, that would be great I'm sure. For others, it would be lame. When I restore an old model, putting it back to original is never in the plan. It's going to be how I want it to look period. It won't look like it came from the factory or out of the box. I have several old models that I've hacked up. Some were glue bombs. Some were like they just came out of the box. Any one of them could have been restored to original. But, none of them will be or have been. I have a '62 F-100 that came out of the stripper clean as new. So far, I've chopped the top, shortened the bed, filled the tail gate and done several other modifications to it. It has a scratch built chassis, interior (except for the dash) and everything under the hood will be scratch built except for the engine (blown 4.6). The point is everyone restores things to suit themselves and their own taste. Not what others think they should do. It doesn't matter if it's a model, a real car or a piece of furniture. It's theirs. They can do whatever they want with it.
DR JAY Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Reliability> It seems that this word is sometimes misunderstood in rodding circles. My 1949 Mercury M-47 pickup has been around--in stone stock form--for 66 years with most of its life spent doing farm work as a farm truck. Anything that can survive a 40+ year work life like that is, in my opinion, reliable. My parents and grandparents travelled cross country in those old crates...with no cel phones.They made it home alive. While I have always preferred originality of old vehicles (the people who designed them went to college), a 49 Ford sedan with modern underpinnings, a newer engine ( not necessarily EFI), AC and radials is pretty nice to operate for hours on end during a highway excursion. I spent my youth hunting the low spots of highway ruts with Bias Ply tires and worn steering gears and while it may be a trip to the past, as I age I am finding that I prefer to do less work and enjoy the scenery, not the temperature gauge. (Disclosure: My M-47 is apart completely, right down to ziplocs full of valve keepers, but it will go back together stock. My wide whites are NOS Bias ply and the steering gear is the OEM impaler-style. It rides like a manure spreader...shifting the old floor shift 3 speed is like stirring a wheelbarrow full of rocks...it steers like a fine Russian tractor... but there will be no LS engine, overdrive or AC--don't need it since the college graduates designed a cowl vent that not only looks cool, but it works.The only major change will be a 12 v conversion and I built my own converters for the stock gauges and fuel sending unit.) But that's me. Tastes and opinions may vary and that's what makes going to a car show interesting. If everyone liked the same things, car shows could be condensed to a trip through a mall parking lot on a Saturday where we could all look at beige and silver cars with no soul or character that are all shaped the same. This is an interesting discussion... Edited February 17, 2015 by DR JAY
Exotics_Builder Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 To me, they are works of art and reflect the personality of the owner and restorer. I can relate to both correct restoration or updated. Rarity and provenance of a particular vehicle do come to mind as considerations. There are genres that do nothing for me, but I can still respect the work done and attention given to them. In today's world, I would have a tendency toward reliability, safety and consistent performance as benchmarks. Again, rarity/provenance taken into consideration. For example, I would rather have a modern, clean burn motor, better suspension, brakes and tires, but not on an original documented COPO Camaro.
Joe Handley Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) One thing to consider in the restore vs restify argurment is that you're going to do if you road trip that classic and something original style fails. I'd love to find a Hudson or Nash, but if the engine was missing to too far gone, I'd probably swap a Jeep 4.0l and AW4 auto into it instead of hunting down another factory I-6 and using the stock trans.......Why, parts! If something went wrong on the road, 4.0l parts should be easy to come by because they made a ton of them, used them for 20 years in 6 different Jeeps, tend to run forever, and made decent power. Another plus would be that they were Inline 6's and the last AMC engine still in use, so it still "keeps it in the family" and something not so cookie cutter vs even any Chrysler engines let alone a GM or Ford engine. Same could be said for the suzpension and brakes, would be a lot easier to use Camaro, S-Truck, or Jeep parts (where applicable) over stock for the same reason, better chance of finding the needed stuff in a random town than the old stuff. Edited February 17, 2015 by Joe Handley
Roadrunner Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I encountered a bit of a dilemma here lately. I have the desire to paint an otherwise stock 20's vintage car in modern colors. On paper, it seems like an OK idea, but the reality might be a bit different. I may give it a go anyway, and see what folks think.
afx Posted February 18, 2015 Author Posted February 18, 2015 Ask yourself this question. Your at a car show or watching Barrett Jackson on TV, there is a '68 Camaro restomod with a giant crate motor and an original Z28 setting side by side - which gets you more excited?
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