Apparently old electronic devices don't age well

[Rob Hall]

8 minutes ago, Brian Austin said:

My father and grandfather were both involved in computer programming.  I grew up with reams of blue-and-white printout paper to draw on, and the rather brittle plastic flow chart templates they brought home.  Boston was a hub of early computer development, and there used to be a computer museum around here with mainframes and such on view.

In regards to the video, I don't think the manufacturers anticipated a movement of crazy electronics collectors hanging on to their devices decades past their Use By date.  🙂

I've been to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, Ca and to it in Boston when it was there in the mid 90s.    Really neat places.   I did learn to use flow chart templates in my early computer classes in the late 80s, learned about punch cards, but have never had to use them...I did use green screen terminals to access VAX computers in a couple college classes.    Programming is hard enough, I can imagine it was a lot harder in the punch card and mainframe era...had to be very precise w/ commands, not easy to debug compared to testing and debugging code in an IDE on my laptop w/ local databases, etc.. 

[peteski]

5 hours ago, 1972coronet said:

Those were so awesome ! A well-heeled friend of mine had one in c.1983; a very expensive gaming system (somewhere in the low-mid hundreds) for its time. 

IIRC, it included acetate sheets for screen overlays which were subjective and exclusive to the specific game being played. 

Very cool.

The price was actually not that much more than contemporary gaming systems.  I bought mine at Sears, and the box still has the original price tag of $199.79.  It looks like a miniature arcade video game.

Yes, Vectrex graphics are vector-based, and black/white. The graphics were smooth and movements were very fluid, unlike the low-res choppy graphics of other game consoles (like Atari 2600).  Basically it was vector graphics. Arcade games like Asteroids,  Armor Attack, or Battlezone also used that type of graphics. Vectrex also has an analog joystick instead of the switch-based joysticks on other systems.  And yes, each game had a color overlay placed in front of the screen to enhance the gaming experience.  It is a unique gaming system.  It also had a line of accessories such as a 3D goggles (which were nto all that good), and a light pen.  It was also one of the first systems that attempted primitive speech synthesis in one of the games.

There is actually an active Vectrex community out there, with many home-brewed games being produced and online forum (and probably a FB page).  I have not done anything with mine for few years, but in the past I was even involved in making reproduction overlays for it.

[peteski]

31 minutes ago, Rob Hall said:

I did learn to use flow chart templates in my early computer classes in the late 80s, learned about punch cards, but have never had to use them...I did use green screen terminals to access VAX computers in a couple college classes.    Programming is hard enough, I can imagine it was a lot harder in the punch card and mainframe era...had to be very precise w/ commands, not easy to debug compared to testing and debugging code in an IDE on my laptop w/ local databases, etc.. 

How about tractor-feed continuous greenbar computer paper and dot-matrix printers? 

As for debugging, programs were much, much simpler than anything we have today.  Complex programs had thousands of lines of code, vs. what, millions of lines of code in today's code?  The processor clocks were in low MHz range, not at what they run today.  Debugging was also simpler (but still a pain).

[Ace-Garageguy]

Far as 'old tech' goes, I have a Philco radio-record player my parents bought in the late 1940s. The wood cabinet is in fine shape, but needs refinishing. A few years back I found sources for electron tubes and needles, and as the rest of the parts in it were built of stout stuff indeed, it works and sounds like it did 77 years ago. 

I put a hidden input jack on it, configured so I can run recorded old-time radio programs from the web through the original amp and speaker. Time travel. 

It's kina fun when a relative youngster stops by and hears the ancient programming, and not knowing much about anything, asks how it's possible. I just shake my head, and say "I don't know, but it still seems to be able to pick up radio broadcasts from a long time ago..." 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[peteski]

I also own the very cool Sinclair Research microvision portable TV set MTV1.  Unfortunately it no longer works since the TV transmission standards changed from NTSC to DTV.  It was actually capable of displaying TV standards worldwide.

Speaking of Sinclair, my first personal computer was Sinclair ZX81 I bought as a kit and assembled it myself.  Still have it (but have not powered it up for years). It came with 1k (yes 1024 bytes) of RAM. It used a TV set as its monitor and cassette tape player to store or load programs.

 

 

[BeakDoc]

I’ll add this about old tech: The older Cyberdyne SkyNet T-101s, when reprogrammed by the resistance, have proven to be far superior to their fancy, hi-tech, “liquid metal” successors like the T-7000. I know because I saw it on VHS.

[1972coronet]

Thank you for the clarification and the additional information regarding the Vectrex @peteski . It would seem that there was some teenage bragging - in respect to the game's price - going on with my friend some 40+ years ago.

I was likewise impressed by just how fluid its graphics were, and the fluid action of its joystick . I was used to and fond of my Coleco-Vision and its graphics and controls ( I wasn't much of a fan of the Atari 2600 insofar as its stiff as 'ell controls, and the so-so graphics), so the Vectrex was even more of a treat. 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On a related note to the topic: 

I've long preferred mono mixes of albums, especially when those albums - vinyl or C.D. - are played through a great sound system. The stereo mixes more often than not kill a lot of the dynamic - the richness, the power - of the songs. For an instance, Pink Floyd's first album , Piper at the Gates of Dawn [1967] , sounds 1,000 times better in mono.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, The Who albums in mono sound, well, not so good. Either they were never properly mixed to begin with, or they're fold-in mixes via 'remastering'.  

Edited March 24, 2023 by 1972coronet

[webestang]

14 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yeah, quite a few black-and white films and color print and slide films are readily available. The old-school photography movement is going strong.

Right off hand, I don't know if anyone still makes new VHS tapes, but there seems to be plenty of new-old-stock still out there.

https://www.amazon.com/new-vhs-tapes/s?k=new+vhs+tapes

I find sealed VHS movies all the time for 69 cents each at my local thrift shop. I collect them to play but also sometimes just for the box art. I also have many that are only available on VHS. 

I got back into VHS because of this doc.....    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rewind_This!

[Ace-Garageguy]

2 minutes ago, 1972coronet said:

... or they're fold-in mixes via 'remastering'.  

I've found a lot of the "remastered" stuff entirely destroys the character of the original...kinda like most "customizing" of cars is not an "improvement", particularly when the subject is something pretty damm close to perfect, like a '57 T-bird.

[Ace-Garageguy]

A side note about VHS players and tape decks in general: I've found the single most common failure point of old tape decks is the rubber drive belt, and some decks have more than one.

If you have one that's quit, or seems to 'garble' playback occasionally (slipping), before you toss it, check the belt. They're readily available.

[1972coronet]

6 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I've found a lot of the "remastered" stuff entirely destroys the character of the original.

I agree with your sentiment regarding original vs. remastered. However, oftentimes the original tapes were decaying or outright muddy, so digitising them was necessary. In one instance, David Crosby was called into the studio to re-record a vocal line in Triad. Apparently, the original tape was decaying and that one line in the song was completely unusable. So, 20 years after Crosby laid down the vocals for the song, he re-sang one line so that the song could be issued on a comp. The result is seamless. 

Sometimes remastered - or, specifically, remixed - albums sound better than the original. I cite The Stooges Raw Power [1973]. The remix by Iggy Pop in 1997 is leaps and bounds above the original thin Bowie mix. 
Then there's the , "Wow ! This sounds like s__t on compact disc ! Woof !", as the analogue tapes didn't translate to digital all that well. 

[Pete J.]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:42 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

"Well...like...if you have any tech over 2 years old you're just an old fossil living in the past anyway, and you should just die and get out of the way so all the cool hot hip happening folks who make everything better can get on with saving the planet and destroying all the oppressive systems like actual physical work and personal responsibility that have made Western Civilization a living hell."

EDIT: Seriously, none of this stuff was ever really built to last. The disposable consumer society has been a thing for as long as I can remember, and though my parents' generation railed against "planned obsolescence" when I was a kid, it's gradually been accepted as the core business practice that keeps the economy humming along.

I've been angered at the deterioration and failure of random plastic bits under the hoods of vehicles and in many of my older electronic devices, but it's just the way it is. Plastics are employed in many applications they're simply not suited for over the long term, but again, nobody ever expected anyone to try to keep any of this stuff running forever anyway, so you get what you get. And electronic bits, capacitors in particular, tend to deteriorate and fail over time. Nothing new there, and I've had to replace innumerable caps in all kinds of machines over the decades.

But there was a time things were manufactured with repairability in mind, and that concept is rapidly becoming as dead as the dodo. 

What I find interesting an annoying is that the cheap plastic pieces that break and are intended to be tossed, will live for 1,000 years in the land fill or our oceans.  Dumb!!

[Ace-Garageguy]

37 minutes ago, Pete J. said:

What I find interesting an annoying is that the cheap plastic pieces that break and are intended to be tossed, will live for 1,000 years in the land fill or our oceans...

Speaking of which, I have several old high-end CD changers from the mid 1990s, including two 300-disc units that are exceptionally "smart" and can be "slaved" together to randomly play any track from 600 discs, or be programmed to only play from a particular genre (that has to be entered manually as each disc is loaded the first time). Cool stuff, and the sound quality through an ancient Fisher amp and '80s Fuselier speakers has to be experienced to be believed.

Anyway, when one of the 100-disc changers jammed and failed, disassembly revealed an intricate plastic casting had become brittle and cracked. I was able to repair it with a high-strength epoxy, and reinforce it at the same time. It works to this day (ten years since the repair), but now I'm noticing a degradation in the functionality of the control input panel, and possibly the internal logic...rather like the total failure of the heat-AC-radio controls in my 1989 GMC pickup.

A lot of this old stuff is repairable for someone who's motivated enough, by means of employing 3D-printing (or physical machining) to duplicate degraded plastic parts, or swapping in programmable logic chips that take over the functions of what's failed, etc....but it's a royal PITA to HAVE TO do it.

A friend of mine has a fridge that's been running just fine since the early 1950s, and I have an office fridge my father bought in the late 1960s that's still going strong...but my big main fridge from just a few years back is already toast, and not really worth repairing IF I pay someone else to do it.

I wish stuff was built to last, and to be mainstream-repairable.

It's not, I understand the "reasons" why it's not, but I don't have to like it.  

EDIT: Change to make something better is great. Quantifiably, usefully, functionally better.

But change just for the sake of change, to enhance something's marketing appeal to those who can't be caught relying on yesterdays tech, is, in my opinion, stupid.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[Rob Hall]

A high capacity CD changer is something I’ve never added to my home theater, but probably should.  I have a late 90s Sony ES 5 disc player that still works great.  I still buy CDs after 35 years, I do like to have physical media at home and in the car, alas, it’s getting harder to find new cars w/ CD players.  I usually rip CDs to mp3s for my phone or on a thumb drive for the car.  
 

With movies and tv I bought DVDs and Blu Ray discs for years, mostly stream content now, but have a couple Sony blu ray players at home. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Rob Hall

[Classicgas]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I've found a lot of the "remastered" stuff entirely destroys the character of the original...kinda like most "customizing" of cars is not an "improvement", particularly when the subject is something pretty damm close to perfect, like a '57 T-bird.

I detest the remastered Star Trek. Looks like animation, poorly done at best. At least the ships.

[1972coronet]

40 minutes ago, Classicgas said:

I detest the remastered Star Trek. Looks like animation, poorly done at best. At least the ships.

Remastered Star Trek T.O.S. ? 

[1972coronet]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I wish stuff was built to last, and to be mainstream-repairable.

I've been crying about this since the (age-of-disposable-products) 1980s. My paternal grandparents' 1955 Magnavox Color T.V. was still perfectly working as 'recently' as 1989 (they both passed in 1989) ! 
We used to purchase vacuum tubes at the Vons or Sav-On store(s) -- yes, they still had the tester-and-tubes station as late as 1990 ! -- and replace 'em.
My. Word. That television weighed a metric tonne ! Took two-three of us to pull it away from the wall, against low-pile carpeting, just to access the rear panel. I think that I got my first hernia pulling that solid oak cabinet !

In other words: stuff is going to wear out, irrespective of how well it's built. Being able to service the worn parts -or replace them - is the key. And, as @Ace-Garageguy mentioned, the prospects of 3D printing will help monumentally.
That, and teaching folks how to perform servicing.

[Classicgas]

21 minutes ago, 1972coronet said:

Remastered Star Trek T.O.S. ? 

Yes.

[Brian Austin]

 

 

[Dave Ambrose]

I don't miss the old days at all. I especially don't miss punch cards. They did have one virtue. Folded in half, they fit beautifully in a shirt pocket. I used my remaining supply for grocery lists. Now we have a white board, and I take a picture with my phone. 

I went into computing because I wanted to compute orbits. It was a very interesting time to be in computing. My freshman year and sophomore years at Cal were all done with punched cards. Junior year, we had teletypes connected to a Unix timeshare system. Late that year, we all switched to CRT terminals. Software has proven far more durable than the hardware. I had the interesting challenge of beta testing vi my senior year. I still use that editor. 

[ChrisBcritter]

One thing about hanging on to the off-air VHS/Beta tapes: A LOT of stuff recorded 40-some years ago would otherwise not exist if someone hadn't saved their home tape, as the masters are now lost. Case in point (albeit kinda risque): the complete "paint dance" sequence from the Ann-Margret movie The Swinger apparently only survives today from a couple tapes recorded from WGN-TV late-night airings in 1979-1980; the print WGN aired (apparently a longer European version) hasn't been found. Same thing with an early Robert Altman TV movie, Nightmare in Chicago - the only complete version available was apparently recorded on VHS from a late-'70s airing on WLS-TV (there's also a movie print existing but it's badly faded).

[Pete J.]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:52 PM, webestang said:

I have about 14 typewriters in my collection. Just found another 3 weeks ago at a thrift shop for $12. Lucky for me here in St. Louis there is still

a typewriter repair shop.  

For me it's easy to get, I work at a brick/mortar camera store/lab. We stock all the current films being made. 

I saw a Sunday morning episode on Tom Hanks and he is a collector or old manual typewriters. 

[webestang]

1 hour ago, Pete J. said:

I saw a Sunday morning episode on Tom Hanks and he is a collector or old manual typewriters. 

He is also featured in this doc about typewriters......   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Typewriter

[Mike C]

These still work but you have to learn how to use them. Of course it's not electronic either.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Mike C

[Brian Austin]

This old Greek mechanical object didn't age well....