Walk, then Run

[Boreham]

Rob thanks for your wisdom on this..

It's great to see (all the )experienced modellers acknowledging the plight of the unexperienced modellers view the WIP's and fully built models.

Speaking from an unexperienced view ,

You've nailed the frustration that is present for Beginners or Newly return to

the hobby ,seeing """hyper""" detailed builds on here ,which in some cases are ""nuts""..not just literally , setting a standard that is only for the few.

not to mention the criticisum of some of these ..much to my bewilderment..(maybe it shouldn't taken it to heart... but it's demoralising to read for a newbie..)

I look at the engine bay of my AMT 66 Mustang..and think...it missing inner fenders..and what about the plumbing..not to mention them horrid metal axles... so tempted to glue that hood shut!!

I've gotta do loads to get this looking right....not to mention paint the body a 3rd time...

I look at the tutorials and appreciate those who take the time and effort to provide this..

Maybe a bit of order in the tips and Tutorials would be beneficial..

with pinned topics...and or sub areas ...possibly discussed or written by the more experienced guys ..to avoid the same questions coming up every 3 weeks..

<<<<<Basics>>>>>

Dry fitting (Sub assemblies, engine, interior, chassis and stance,)

Paint (prep , primer, Paint, Polish) with sub sections on each for trouble shooting)

Assembly (final assembly of sub assemblies ,gluing in clear items )

Oh by the way thanks for the inspiration

Edited May 25, 2011 by Boreham

[Foxer]

I think I'm just way too hard on myself as I can see when some trim I hand painted went off the line and , sometimes, I'll fix it. My parents always gave good comments when I was young, but I knew exactly what I did despite having no magazines or fellow modelers to compare to. My local hobby shop finally had a contest when I was 16 in 1962 and I got to see what was possible .... my splotched candy paint didn't compare to what I saw there, but I DID know it looked bad before that.

It's good when people offer their guidance and experience here and I hope that never changes. Not everyone uses their language skills to make it sound helpful so we must remember most ARE trying to help.

[SuperStockAndy]

I agree Rob.

My dad also got me into building. He told me that when I was a little kid I destroyed his USA-1 monster truck....

Luckily though, he DOES tell me if I've done something wrong, so I can fix it and make it right.

Andy

[Scale-Master]

I have been watching this since last night... I see a lot of good advice being offered.

As one who has offered advice to others, I have to admit to sometimes being a bit gun shy about doing so from being admonished for daring to constructively point out flaws in other people's builds.

It does no real good to praise poor work, yet it happens all too often.

How is one supposed to become a better builder when he is told what he is making is already good?

What incentive is there if you are falsely told you are doing great?

How many of us have seen a gushfest of praise for a model we clearly can see and know is sloppy?

It may just be an innocent case of one builder's standards being lower, so he offers a complimentary post, or maybe he's buddies with that builder and is offering polite atta-boys.

But another builder with higher standards may see the flaws and point them out constructively, and I have seen that person get jumped on for trying to help.

The travesty is when the one trying to honestly point out the flaws and offer advice on how to improve is chastised (incorrectly) for putting down the builder or the model. That is just not constructive all around, and hinders the free exchange of good ideas and the possible improvement of some builders, new and seasoned.

I have noticed some builders do not want to build any model the way it comes out of the box. That is fine, part of the lure of this hobby is to build what you want, customizing. But if the grasp is beyond the reach of the builder, do others owe that builder honest advice as to how to achieve the desired results? Sometimes this constructive criticism is met with an attitude of "it is good enough for me" from the builder.

How are we to know if they are just putting it out there to show, or if they really want feedback? (Honesty or just ego stroking?)

Point being, all we can or should be is truthful. And we should be allowed to share our opinions without fear of being shouted down for them if someone else simply has a different viewpoint.

I have seen a nice trend of threads like these running their course without a lot of drama, this looks like another one that should benefit from that attitude.

[58 Impala]

I tend to be my own worst critic,I have been building models for around 47 years but I never rebuke any tips or constructive criticism. There are some tremendous builders out there, but no matter how good someone is there is always someone a little better. Rob you mentioned people should try and build box stock as clean as possible. As a matter of fact I was a judge at a local IPMS show last year (automotive class) and one of the nicest cleanest builds on the table was a Revell 48 Ford Woody Wagon and it had no aftermarket details at all. I was extremely impressed.

[Greg Myers]

Maybe using the "PM this Member" button a little more often would help. Putting the criticism right out there for everyone to see may be too harsh.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Greg Myers

[DRG]

I agree with Greg Meyers completely.

The other day Harry said something that I was compelled to remark about.

I sent him a PM and stated my thoughts, he explained his reason, I responded to that.

Very polite, very courteous. No flame war,no problems.

[Greg Myers]

I have a sudden urge to go to the "Under Glass" section and look at some models.

[Chuck Most]

Hand in hand with the 'tone' thing, some guys just need to be a little bit more careful in how they choose their words. I know I've posted a few things I've had to go back and edit, because I realized somewhere between hitting 'post reply' and reading the post later that "Wow... that could be misinterpreted... ". I do see a few examples of that every so often, but the remark is either taken as it was intended, or the original poster clarifies the statement later on. Thankfully, out and out 'bashing' is exceptionally rare, but constructive criticism (emphasis on 'constructive' here) is plentiful, and for the most part, I think people are taking it as pointers on improving, not outright ridicule. And that is as it should be.

[Harry P.]

Often the person posting a model seems to get over-defensive unless comments are 100-percent positive, despite often posting "tell me what you think" or "comments welcome" along with the photos. I would say more than half of the dust-ups here start with that general road map: Someone says comments are invited, but quickly makes it clear that they really meant "compliments only." When that happens, the person making the comments is almost always singled out as the bad guy, even though the original post suggested honest reaction was encouraged.

I've said this many times before, but this seems like a good place to repeat it:

If you post photos of your work on a public forum, that work is fair game for any other member to comment on... positive or negative.

If you are the thin-skinned type or can't accept anything other than "attaboys" you shouldn't be posting photos of your work in the first place. To post photos, and then to get upset or "offended" if someone says something that doesn't meet your expectations, is unfair to all the other forum members.

[Steve Keck]

I’ve been following this discussion as well and I feel it is worth the trouble to log into the forum to comment.

I agree with Rob.

There have been comments here about contest building. I am not addressing that. If contests are your thing then mastering the basics will put you on the right path to trophies.

I lurk here all the time and I, too, read the atta’boys, ‘good job’ and ‘great paint’ where it doesn’t exist. To give false praise is an injustice at the least and an insult at most. I won’t do it. Many times I’ve seen the work and read the praise wondering if the praise-giver had his tongue in his cheek while typing. Sarcasm can be easily overlooked when disguised as praise. I hope that isn’t the case. If I do take the time to log on to comment it will be for praise earned or to offer constructive help, constructive criticism. If I can’t offer a solution or a way to a better result I don’t say anything.

I’m still learning new things here on the MCM Forum. I wish I new better how to prevent ghosting before Mark Taylor made it so simple and clear in his tutorial (which every one should read). I think a section for just tutorials separate from tips and techniques would be helpful.

[Terry Sumner]

Hand in hand with the 'tone' thing, some guys just need to be a little bit more careful in how they choose their words. I know I've posted a few things I've had to go back and edit, because I realized somewhere between hitting 'post reply' and reading the post later that "Wow... that could be misinterpreted... ". I do see a few examples of that every so often, but the remark is either taken as it was intended, or the original poster clarifies the statement later on. Thankfully, out and out 'bashing' is exceptionally rare, but constructive criticism (emphasis on 'constructive' here) is plentiful, and for the most part, I think people are taking it as pointers on improving, not outright ridicule. And that is as it should be.

Boy Chuck you got that right! I reread my posts and change words constantly to try to avoid any misinterpretations. But sometimes no matter what you write someone will misinterpret. That's just the way it is when writing and not being eye-to-eye as others have already stated. It's just a fact of the internet world I guess...

[Danno]

I’ve been following this discussion as well and I feel it is worth the trouble to log into the forum to comment.

I agree with Rob.

There have been comments here about contest building. I am not addressing that. If contests are your thing then mastering the basics will put you on the right path to trophies.

I lurk here all the time and I, too, read the atta’boys, ‘good job’ and ‘great paint’ where it doesn’t exist. To give false praise is an injustice at the least and an insult at most. I won’t do it. Many times I’ve seen the work and read the praise wondering if the praise-giver had his tongue in his cheek while typing. Sarcasm can be easily overlooked when disguised as praise. I hope that isn’t the case. If I do take the time to log on to comment it will be for praise earned or to offer constructive help, constructive criticism. If I can’t offer a solution or a way to a better result I don’t say anything.

I’m still learning new things here on the MCM Forum. I wish I new better how to prevent ghosting before Mark Taylor made it so simple and clear in his tutorial (which every one should read). I think a section for just tutorials separate from tips and techniques would be helpful.

Good job! Great comment!

[Chuck Most]

I once told a resin caster in a PM, who was considering doing a kit already offered by another caster, to still consider it. The other caster's kit was poorly done, and I told the caster I was adressing he could do better. When I said "You could do better", I realized I should have added "than that other caster" to the end! So- another PM to explain what I meant. In that case, it turned out okay. He responded back by saying something to the effect of "Yeah, it's okay, I knew what you MEANT. " But sometimes, the misunderstanding still happens.

[sjordan2]

I share the concerns mentioned here about the interpretation of comments. One of the worst parts is that one's constructive comments can get severely twisted out of shape. Once upon a time, not too long ago, I posted a thread wishing that people who started an "On the Workbench" thread would follow through on their projects, but many have never finished the builds they started, and eventually abandoned the thread. Frustrating to get into a thread that goes nowhere. So I commented that many of the best builders here managed to complete their projects and not leave us in suspense.

Yet, this was reinterpreted by another member (who is conspicuously absent these days) as saying I had called someone a "talentless hack," leading others to believe I had actually said that. But I never said or even implied such a thing, and I have never attacked the talents or quality of any builders here, either individually or as a group. If I have ever been harsh, it has been in response to trolls who have made very nasty, incendiary and insulting posts, and that's how past flame wars have gone on and on. My bad.

But I'm seeing a somewhat better response to constructive criticisms these days, regarding suggestions like a build could use some clear coat or a little masking would help trim paint look cleaner, re-think overscale wiring, etc. The builder responses I'm seeing lately appear more appreciative. So maybe it's getting easier to make constructive criticism. Do you think?

Edited May 25, 2011 by sjordan2

[sjordan2]

Well, it happens by accident some of the time, but in others the misinterpretation comes from the intentions of the recipiant. They read what they want to read, or what they think is going to be there, instead of what's actually written.

As a for instance, when some in a small but vocal minority here reads a post here with the perspective that it's "mean" or "offensive" every time, they tend to be very effective at getting their feelings hurt or getting offended.

Taken another way, if you look at each post and think "What new perspective could I gain from this...what ideas are being shared?" usually you'll find that a lot of very valuable insights get traded around here for free. Several times a day I find myself thinking "yeah, he's 100-percent on to something there" which is the whole reason I come here...to see viewpoints that aren't my own, skillsets that I don't have, and try and steal as many of the good ones as I can.

Hear, hear. (Applause ensues.)

[Chuck Most]

Ah yes, the "Third-Party Instigator Hand Grenade Post" is one of the most effective tools for getting two people to stop discussing something, & degenerate a thread into a flame war. It has an astounding success rate when aimed properly.

That is why, instead of depending on how others interpret someone else's post or opinon, I rely on my own gray matter. Things run much more smoothly that way. Look at the context of what the person is saying, and go from there. Often, even a poorly worded sentence or two in a critique can be aquitted if you just look at the entire post, as opposed to zeroing in on that one thing and blowing it all out of proportion.

[Jantrix]

Guys thanks very much for the excellent comments. I'm glad this has sparked such an excellent discussion.

I've said this many times before, but this seems like a good place to repeat it:

If you post photos of your work on a public forum, that work is fair game for any other member to comment on... positive or negative.

But I'm seeing a somewhat better response to constructive criticisms these days, regarding suggestions like a build could use some clear coat or a little masking would help trim paint look cleaner, re-think overscale wiring, etc. The builder responses I'm seeing lately appear more appreciative. So maybe it's getting easier to make constructive criticism. Do you think?

Man I hope so. I've been considering doing replys like this for a while. "Nice effort, but I have some thoughts that might make your work better. Would you like to discuss it on this thread or via private message?" If the thread originator doesn't reply then I haven't wasted my time and if he does I will understand whether this person is looking for advice. Another good point here is that we still need to say "something" to these newer builders. So many of us subscribe to Thumpers mama's rule of "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." When that happens a persons work is seemingly ignored. We HAVE to risk more when we see builders like this. We need to risk hurting feelings and offer criticism and praise where appropriate. Because, as I have experienced, being ignored is the worst feeling. It's a total confidence crusher. The internet has made what used to be a very solo hobby into a social experience. Like a quilting bee but without the tea and cookies.

Thanks again guys & gals.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Jantrix

[Agent G]

A very insightful discussion here boys and girls. Very insightful. I whole heartedly agree with Jantrix regarding the whole back channel critique. That approach (paraphrase),"Hey that's a nice effort, I think I have some ideas that might help." is how it should be done.Why alienate the young 'uns before they have a chance to become old and cranky like us?

Just think, three pages and no one's gone off the handle.

Holy Chrome Spinners Batman!

G

[bigmikevee]

Cookies for all!! :P

[Canuk]

As a new old modeler I agree 100%

I can tell when I have done something well and to my abilities but contructive comments are always helpful.

Someone posted a suggestion to use BMF after seeing one of my builds and I tried it. Made a huge difference even though I messed it up in some areas.

I have built 8 kits in the last couple monthe and out of those only 3 I am happy with, but I learn each time from my mistakes.

I see these advanced builders chopping and scratch building and I want to do that too but know I can't...YET.

[Dave]

I can tell you all from personal experoence that I have improved a ton from listening to folks here, at shows, at club meetings etc. The first couple times people said things to help me get better, I was a little confused 'cause others had said how great my builds were. Well once I went to a few shows and other displays of models it became quite clear I had room to (improve,(grow) etc. I had never thought for a second about removing mold lines, fillings gaps, deepening body panels...etc. I enter contests and have gotten a couple trophies over the past couple years, but I now get a bigger thrill when a fellow modeler tells me that a build looks good, or even asks ME how I did some thing on a kit. I look at at any comment I get, positive or negative as a learnig experience and a chance to get better. I look at something I build 5-6 years ago to something more recent and it's like night and day. I''ve only got fellow modelers to thank for it.

[highway]

I share the concerns mentioned here about the interpretation of comments. One of the worst parts is that one's constructive comments can get severely twisted out of shape. Once upon a time, not too long ago, I posted a thread wishing that people who started an "On the Workbench" thread would follow through on their projects, but many have never finished the builds they started, and eventually abandoned the thread. Frustrating to get into a thread that goes nowhere. So I commented that many of the best builders here managed to complete their projects and not leave us in suspense.

Yet, this was reinterpreted by another member (who is conspicuously absent these days) as saying I had called someone a "talentless hack," leading others to believe I had actually said that. But I never said or even implied such a thing, and I have never attacked the talents or quality of any builders here, either individually or as a group. If I have ever been harsh, it has been in response to trolls who have made very nasty, incendiary and insulting posts, and that's how past flame wars have gone on and on. My bad.

But I'm seeing a somewhat better response to constructive criticisms these days, regarding suggestions like a build could use some clear coat or a little masking would help trim paint look cleaner, re-think overscale wiring, etc. The builder responses I'm seeing lately appear more appreciative. So maybe it's getting easier to make constructive criticism. Do you think?

I'm not trying to start anything with you Skip, but this was the statement that at least mad me angry in that thread. It's water under the bridge to me now, I had my say and moved on.

Only a very few of the most talented builders on this forum can keep things moving until the end.

Oh, and thanks for noticing I haven't been on for most of this week Skip, my new blood pressure medicine has been causing some bad side effects this past week and I've been not feeling well. This has been the first time I've felt like even turning on my computer!

Edited May 27, 2011 by highway

[Guest]

Oh boy, this may be the end of the civility. Why does this have to happen? If people are over something, why do they rehash it?

[mr cheap]

im 56 been building for ever self learned via misstakes nobody to show me any thing.. i found this site a week ago theres so much i dont know how to do..but i know a lot much of it worng....... im (dis lex ic) cant spell ... or read .. if you see me give bad advice tell me .. pic of 2 white ger shepards coming up soon .. jr