Altered wheelbase...why?

[MrBuick]

I've always wondered the thought process behind altered wheelbase cars. I understand that the concept behind a gasser was weight transfer to the rear, but the "nose up" stance and strait axle was detrimental to handling and things could get sketchy pretty quickly. Was the altered wheelbase just evolution of the same concept...moving the rear axle forward to put more weight behind it for quick rear-weight transfer?

[mike 51]

yep..weight transfer.

[Harry P.]

It was incorrect, misguided thinking back in the day... before they knew better.

[cobraman]

Maybe so but it looked cool !  : )

[Harry P.]

But it made no sense in the real world. If it did, all drag cars today would be set up that way.

[Snake45]

If you'll notice, cars went from the high or nose-up stance to nose down once they started hitting about 140-150 mph in the quarter. Happened with the Funnies, with the Gassers, with the MPs, with the Pro Stocks, right on down the line.

Altered wheelbase worked, but once the funnies went to tube frames and flopper bodies, and stickier tires became available, there was no real advantage to it anymore.

[mike 51]

Before they had modern tires...it was briefly the best way to increase weight transfer.

 Tire tech soon changed everything in drag racing.  

Those altered wheel base cars were the state of the art for 1965 but very quickly became obsolete. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by mike 51

[Craig Irwin]

Before they had modern tires...it was briefly the best way to increase wieght transfer.

 Tire tech changed everything in drag racing.  

Those altered wheel base cars were the state of the art for 1965 but very quickly became obsolete. 

Bingo ! Tires finally caught up with horse power.

 

[JollySipper]

I read somewhere that tires today increase in height as they go down the track.... This gradually raises the gear ratio, and allows them to run a direct-drive transmission.

Thought that was pretty interesting.....!

[Ace-Garageguy]

It was incorrect, misguided thinking back in the day... before they knew better.

Not "incorrect" or "misguided" by a long shot. The math and physics worked exactly as envisioned...and don't make the mistake or thinking all the old drag racers were ignorant boobs who didn't understand fractions and slide-rules. The relevant racing technology simply moved on and cars evolved.

You wouldn't call the Wright Brothers' sticks-and-string airplane "misguided" and "incorrect" because it wasn't built like a Boeing 787 or a Lancair evolution, would you?

I certainly hope not. It was state-of-the-art in its time, the best engineering available, nothing about it was "wrong", and it helped to pave the way for the engineering understanding that makes modern aircraft possible. Just like the drag cars of their day got it as right as possible with the tools, tires and parts available at the time.

If you'll notice, cars went from the high or nose-up stance to nose down once they started hitting about 140-150 mph in the quarter. Happened with the Funnies, with the Gassers, with the MPs, with the Pro Stocks, right on down the line.

Altered wheelbase worked, but once the funnies went to tube frames and flopper bodies, and stickier tires became available, there was no real advantage to it anymore.

Exactly. And high ground clearance and nose-up attitudes under acceleration made faster cars simply undrivable. Noses came down as cars went faster to get downforce on the front end to help with stability.

And if you look at funny cars today, you see vestiges of the old altered-wheelbase designs. Engines are set back in the chassis, and front wheels are pushed as far forward as possible.

Just sayin. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Ace-Garageguy

[Chuck Most]

If you'll notice, cars went from the high or nose-up stance to nose down once they started hitting about 140-150 mph in the quarter. Happened with the Funnies, with the Gassers, with the MPs, with the Pro Stocks, right on down the line.

Altered wheelbase worked, but once the funnies went to tube frames and flopper bodies, and stickier tires became available, there was no real advantage to it anymore.

This. You have to remember those guys were rocketing down the 1320 on rock-hard bias ply tires, for one thing. You needed all the help you could get. 

[1972coronet]

I've seen period photos of 1965 'RO51' ( Belvedere Super Stock ) AWB's with the typical nose-up stance , and a compare / contrast photo of another 'RO51' with its nose-down and a chin spoiler . Apparently as early as 1965-1966 , the theory of aerodynamics was applied to the AWB's . I'd have to search for the photo ; it was part of an article written by Al Kirshenbaum [sp] in c.1997 .

EDIT : August 1997 issue of Mopar Action : http://www.moparaction.com/Next/history/aug1997.html

Edited April 21, 2016 by 1972coronet

[gtx6970]

Not "incorrect" or "misguided" by a long shot. The math and physics worked exactly as envisioned...and don't make the mistake or thinking all the old drag racers were ignorant boobs who didn't understand fractions and slide-rules. The relevant racing technology simply moved on and cars evolved.

You wouldn't call the Wright Brothers' sticks-and-string airplane "misguided" and "incorrect" because it wasn't built like a Boeing 787 or a Lancair evolution, would you?

I certainly hope not. It was state-of-the-art in its time, the best engineering available, nothing about it was "wrong", and it helped to pave the way for the engineering understanding that makes modern aircraft possible. Just like the drag cars of their day got it as right as possible with the tools, tires and parts available at the time.

Exactly. And high ground clearance and nose-up attitudes under acceleration made faster cars simply undrivable. Noses came down as cars went faster to get downforce on the front end to help with stability.

And if you look at funny cars today, you see vestiges of the old altered-wheelbase designs. Engines are set back in the chassis, and front wheels are pushed as far forward as possible.

Just sayin. 

Bingo

 

If it didn't work it would have lasted about a week

[Lizard Racing]

A good discussion of this is in Super Stock: Drag Racing the Family Sedan by Larry Davis.  AWB started big time in the mid-'60s with MoPars.  They moved the rear wheels forward 2% of the wheelbase for better traction and weight transfer.  And it was hardly noticeable unless one looked closely.  That worked good, so they went clear crazy with it and next year the rear wheels were moved to just behind the doors.  The days of factory-built drag racers!

[Yenkocamaro]

Dick Landy was a great innovator of Automotive research in relation to what would work, and what would not in racing. Landys research hit on weight transfer, and his 64 Dodge shown here was the result of his testing. This was an early AWB test car, that later resulted in factory built Altered wheelbase cars.

 

Cheers,

Lance

[High octane]

Drag racing in the mid 60's to early 70's was really exciting and one could see a lot of new innovations at the track. It was also fun as many guys could take their daily driver or grandma's car and make a few passes down the strip. Today drag racing is boring with all the cookie cutter/tech cars. I know someone who  recently had a AA/FD and had a million bucks into the car, tractor, trailer, etc. Seems like today it's all about MONEY and not racing, sort of like the other sports we have today also.

[fairlane1320]

Somebody better tell Mr. Ronda he was doing it wrong!

[MrBuick]

Wow, some great/cool info. Thanks guys!

[keyser]

It was funny how fast (no puns intended) it went from AWB to nose down. Wrinkle wall slicks, tire compounds, and shock valving dramatically improved hookup and launches. 

Landy and Garlits amongst others were very smart engineers that tried to use science for speed. Brilliant people often get called incorrect and misguided  (See Darwin, ignored Takata engineers)

I always thought mid-engine wheelstanders pushed the envelope forward too. HUG, LRW made a lot of people think about motor placement, just like Indy, F1 a bit earlier. As a kid then, it was pretty amazing time to watch the transition, and watch lap times and trap times plummet. 

AWB's were just another step. The lightweights from 61-63 were the front end of all that, and by what, '67-68 it was gone. 

[Snake45]

The '66 Logghe-chassied Comets of Nicholson, Schartman, et al were the turning point. They were the prototypes and First Generation of all funny cars to follow right down to today.

Few if any new AWB cars were built for 1967, and most if not all "1967" AWB cars were just updated '66s. By 1968 I think ALL the funnies were tube-chassis floppers.

[1972coronet]

The '66 Logghe-chassied Comets of Nicholson, Schartman, et al were the turning point. They were the prototypes and First Generation of all funny cars to follow right down to today.

Few if any new AWB cars were built for 1967, and most if not all "1967" AWB cars were just updated '66s. By 1968 I think ALL the funnies were tube-chassis floppers.

Those '66 "Floppers" must have been unreal to see for the first time !  IIRC , that was a partnership between FoMoCo and DST (Dearborn Steel Tubing) . Weren't *some* of the panels still production (body-in-white) stamped steel ?

[Snake45]

Those '66 "Floppers" must have been unreal to see for the first time !  IIRC , that was a partnership between FoMoCo and DST (Dearborn Steel Tubing) . Weren't *some* of the panels still production (body-in-white) stamped steel ?

No, they were full fiberglass, the molds made with factory cooperation.

Some of the '66 and '67 funnies were still using part steel, part fiberglass bodies, but not those Comets.

[1972coronet]

No, they were full fiberglass, the molds made with factory cooperation.

Some of the '66 and '67 funnies were still using part steel, part fiberglass bodies, but not those Comets.

Cool ! Thanks for the info ! I was thinking of the 1967 Ramchargers' Dart "Flopper" ; it had a steel roof , direct from Hamtramck .

[drummerdad]

I read somewhere that tires today increase in height as they go down the track.... This gradually raises the gear ratio, and allows them to run a direct-drive transmission.

Thought that was pretty interesting.....!

That is correct.  It is most noticeable in the top fuel, and funny car applications. They can grow to almost 6 ft tall at the finish line. This decreases the contact patch area, but increases the roll out, making the car travel farther for every revolution of the engine. They use multiple clutch set ups, that bring in another clutch plate, every few milliseconds, that allows them to feather in the power. Its a fine line between the clutch plate engagement, and the decreasing of the contact patch, which reduces traction.  It has all been factored in to the equations they use to determine set up. As the tire gets taller, it gets skinnier. Thats why you see some guys blow the tires off at mid track. 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by drummerdad

[Snake45]

Cool ! Thanks for the info ! I was thinking of the 1967 Ramchargers' Dart "Flopper" ; it had a steel roof , direct from Hamtramck .

Yeah, I've seen a couple of '67 and even '68 funnies that had partial steel bodies, but even they had full tube chassis by that time, and none of them were "top line" cars, though they might have been local or regional heroes.