Recaster Alert

[AMT Pacemakers]

{Ya know, it would be nice if people learned about the resin business before spouting off.}

Yeah, most are rip offs and etc...

What the ------- man, I wasn't spouting off as you call it..Geez. You know it would probably not hurt if alot of folks here read up on copyright and trademark laws in this country...If I had an "Original" product and someone made a pattern of their own of my product and started selling the product, I would SUE. Now, if I had a mold that I created of a Holley carb and sold it Holley could SUE me, There's very little in the model car world that a caster can actually call his own,as far as parts are concerned even if he does modify the original .Probably doesn't make sense to some, but what the hell, its just model car parts.

Edited September 4, 2017 by AMT Pacemakers

[bobthehobbyguy]

Bottom line if you want to get quality resin parts then you need to support the quality resin casters.   Recasters normally produce a  poor quality product and are in it for a quick buck . If you buy from them then don't complain that you can't get quality parts.

[peteski]

  On 9/4/2017 at 10:23 PM, AMT Pacemakers said:

{Ya know, it would be nice if people learned about the resin business before spouting off.}

Yeah, most are rip offs and etc...

What the ------- man, I wasn't spouting off as you call it..Geez. You know it would probably not hurt if alot of folks here read up on copyright and trademark laws in this country...If I had an "Original" product and someone made a pattern of their own of my product and started selling the product, I would SUE. Now, if I had a mold that I created of a Holley carb and sold it Holley could SUE me, There's very little in the model car world that a caster can actually call his own,as far as parts are concerned even if he does modify the original .Probably doesn't make sense to some, but what the hell, its just model car parts.

Yeah, lawsuits seem to be really popular nowadays. many are frivolous.  But let's be realistic here. If some caster's original part (regardless whether it was 100% original or he used parts of existing model kits) is copied and resold by someone, he could sue. But lawyers cost money and most casters are home-based operations running on a shoestring budget. There is no money for lawsuits.  The individual that copied the original casting is also most likely some schmuck living in his parent's home - he has no funds to be sued for either.  The only people who would make out on this deal would be the lawyers.

[Speed City Resin]

It looks as though Anthony Grimaldi (eBay seller Mediatrans65 ) has ripped off my Hemi Hilborn Intake Manifold that I created back in 2005.
He actually tried to tell me that he made it from a kit manifold, but there has never been a kit manifold that even comes close. I know my work well and this is clearly my Hemi Hilborn Intake..... Not to mention that he lists it as a 392 Hemi engine on eBay,  what he is selling has 426 Hemi heads and Valve Covers. This guy isn't very bright and doesn't even know his engine parts.  He's  Nothing more than liar and a thief !

[vamach1]

Always buy the real thing.  The price difference is not even an issue but the crappy quality of knock-offs is.

[yellowsportwagon]

If I was to take a resin body that was modified from a production kit. And modify it more by changing the year of the car and correcting flaws in the original resin casting would it be considered recasting? I mean if I redid a lot of stuff and made it something it wasn’t before i.e. different year car reshape  parts that were miss shapened etc. I feel if you heavily modify a casting to make something new it’s no different then what the original caster did to a production kit. Dead copying someone’s casting is a different story. Opinions?

Edited March 1, 2018 by yellowsportwagon
Spell

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 3/1/2018 at 12:16 AM, yellowsportwagon said:

If I was to take a resin body that was modified from a production kit. And modify it more by changing the year of the car and correcting flaws in the original resin would it be considered recasting? I mean f I redid a lot of stuff and made it something it wasn’t before i.e. different year car. I feel if you heavily modify a castingto make something new it’s no different then what the original caster did to a production kit. Opinions?

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I agree. Correcting flaws or converting a car to another year pretty much makes it your own in my mind. It takes highly skilled work to do that...not just mixing up some goop and copying exactly what somebody else has poured many hours of skill and effort into.

  On 2/28/2018 at 6:17 PM, vamach1 said:

Always buy the real thing.  The price difference is not even an issue but the crappy quality of knock-offs is.

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I also agree with this...100%.

[Ron Hamilton]

  On 3/1/2018 at 12:16 AM, yellowsportwagon said:

If I was to take a resin body that was modified from a production kit. And modify it more by changing the year of the car and correcting flaws in the original resin would it be considered recasting? I mean f I redid a lot of stuff and made it something it wasn’t before i.e. different year car. I feel if you heavily modify a castingto make something new it’s no different then what the original caster did to a production kit. Opinions?

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if you are doing it for yourself, no problem, but if you are passing someone's work off as yours with "improvements" for recasting and sale, there will be problems. We have seen this before.

[Ace-Garageguy]

  On 3/1/2018 at 12:51 AM, Ron Hamilton said:

if you are doing it for yourself, no problem, but if you are passing someone's work off as yours with "improvements" for recasting and sale, there will be problems. We have seen this before.

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I'm inclined to think it really depends, ethically at least, on the nature and extent of the "improvements".

For example...many of the Flintstone models have significant scale and symmetry issues. Starting with a rough Flintstone body and making a GOOD master from it would take some serious effort...and skill.

I would purchase something that was significantly BETTER with no qualms whatsoever.

[yellowsportwagon]

  On 3/1/2018 at 12:51 AM, Ron Hamilton said:

if you are doing it for yourself, no problem, but if you are passing someone's work off as yours with "improvements" for recasting and sale, there will be problems. We have seen this before.

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So if someone took so and so’s 64 whatever it is and reshaped the sides and made new bumpers to turn it in to a 65 whatever it is would be wrong? Why then isn’t it wrong to turn say AMT’s 64 whatever into a 65 whatever ? If it is considered a theft of design shouldn’t that apply to anyone that hasn’t started a resin from scratch?

[Ben]

As a caster that started out in 1995, I’ve seen many of my parts being cast by others without my permission. What makes me mad is not the fact they’re making money off them but the fact that they’re passing off my work as their own! To top that off, their casting is usually horrid and if someone were to find out I mastered it, they would think my master must have been just as bad! Not copying other people’s work is a matter of integrity. Very few people have that anymore!

[Ron Hamilton]

  On 3/1/2018 at 12:56 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

I'm inclined to think it really depends, ethically at least, on the nature and extent of the "improvements".

For example...many of the Flintstone models have significant scale and symmetry issues. Starting with a rough Flintstone body and making a GOOD master from it would take some serious effort...and skill.

I would purchase something that was significantly BETTER with no qualms whatsoever.

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I recently bought a resin kit, that I have to make a bunch of changes to correct it to my satisfaction. I am not going to recast it for the masses, but I may ask the original caster if they would want it for their line. I feel that they did the heavy lifting on the project. If not, then that is a different story.

[yellowsportwagon]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:04 AM, Ron Hamilton said:

I recently bought a resin kit, that I have to make a bunch of changes to correct it to my satisfaction. I am not going to recast it for the masses, but I may ask the original caster if they would want it for their line. I feel that they did the heavy lifting on the project. If not, then that is a different story.

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That is a fair idea. I guess my point is at what point have you made a new model out of it . Just as the caster that made an AMT 69 Chevelle into a 68 for instance. Amt did all the heavy lifting there didn’t they? There seems to be a hypothetical line drawn that varies according to the origins of the model that was started with . Again I agree with not copying someone’s work verbatim but something like a year change and major reshaping seem a different story to me

[Ron Hamilton]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:02 AM, yellowsportwagon said:

So if someone took so and so’s 64 whatever it is and reshaped the sides and made new bumpers to turn it in to a 65 whatever it is would be wrong? Why then isn’t it wrong to turn say AMT’s 64 whatever into a 65 whatever ? If it is considered a theft of design shouldn’t that apply to anyone that hasn’t started a resin from scratch?

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It's a slippery slope. If you took a crappy piece of Resin and made it nice, I do no think the market would care. In fact I, for one,  would appreciate it. I have a couple of bad pieces in my collection, and I have to do a ton of work to them to make an acceptable model out of it. The better casting would get the business. Some resin kits are unbuildable out of the box, and some are sheer perfection needing just paint.

Show us what you are proposing to do, and let the market decide.

[Ace-Garageguy]

So what's ethical, and what's not? How far back do we go?

Some of Modelhaus' offerings were almost certainly cribbed from promos, and nobody complained about that...but copying a Modelhaus kit would be a bad thing?

And R&M makes parts that are very obviously copies from styrene injection molded kit parts...like their transverse springs directly from the old Revell parts pack.

[Ron Hamilton]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:13 AM, yellowsportwagon said:

That is a fair idea. I guess my point is at what point have you made a new model out of it . Just as the caster that made an AMT 69 Chevelle into a 68 for instance. Amt did all the heavy lifting there didn’t they? There seems to be a hypothetical line drawn that varies according to the origins of the model that was started with . Again I agree with not copying someone’s work verbatim but something like a year change and major reshaping seem a different story to me

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You know AMT  did a '68 Chevelle SS 396 as an annual.

[Ron Hamilton]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:16 AM, Ace-Garageguy said:

So what's ethical, and what's not? How far back do we go?

Some of Modelhaus' offerings were almost certainly cribbed from promos, and nobody complained about that...but copying a Modelhaus kit would be a bad thing?

And R&M makes parts that are very obviously copies from styrene injection molded kit parts...like their transverse springs directly from the old Revell parts pack.

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And that is the Resin Business.

[yellowsportwagon]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:17 AM, Ron Hamilton said:

You know AMT  did a '68 Chevelle SS 396 as an annual.

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  On 3/1/2018 at 1:17 AM, Ron Hamilton said:

You know AMT  did a '68 Chevelle SS 396 as an annual.

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I was just trying to make a random example

[yellowsportwagon]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:15 AM, Ron Hamilton said:

It's a slippery slope. If you took a crappy piece of Resin and made it nice, I do no think the market would care. In fact I, for one,  would appreciate it. I have a couple of bad pieces in my collection, and I have to do a ton of work to them to make an acceptable model out of it. The better casting would get the business. Some resin kits are unbuildable out of the box, and some are sheer perfection needing just paint.

Show us what you are proposing to do, and let the market decide.

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Sent you a message 

[Ron Hamilton]

I am not the conscience of this board, nor do I profess to be. From our private conversation, I do not think that what you want to do is unethical. Copying and re-casting a currently available product from some other company is a problem to me, but something that will probably be not available again is another story.

That being said, there are people trying to capitalize on the imminent closing of The Modelhaus, by copying their products. Well, The Modelhaus is not done yet, and as far as I am concerned, and copying any of their exclusive products without their consent is just plain wrong.

What happens if someone else were to acquire the business, and continue to offer quality product at a reasonable price? I would be very angry if I made the investment, only to have copies of product out there. Especially if it is substandard.

For example, there is a fellow who is selling poorly executed copies of a Motor City Resin's product, as well as other casters, on the premise that he is improving the original castings. From looking at the photos of that stuff, it looks terrible, and he will not get a penny of my money.

I know that there are some modelers who are so hungry for unique product will buy form him, and that is their prerogative. I love unique pieces, but I do not want the subject matter that bad.

[mikemodeler]

  On 3/1/2018 at 1:02 AM, yellowsportwagon said:

So if someone took so and so’s 64 whatever it is and reshaped the sides and made new bumpers to turn it in to a 65 whatever it is would be wrong? Why then isn’t it wrong to turn say AMT’s 64 whatever into a 65 whatever ? If it is considered a theft of design shouldn’t that apply to anyone that hasn’t started a resin from scratch?

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A good example would be some of the resin Malibu kits from the 78-82 years. Those kits never existed but some smart folks realized that the Revell Chevy Citation was very close and with some reworking, created a resin kit. While not an exact copy of an existing kit, and it did require some work on their behalf to come up with a good looking resin kit, it was similar to what Tim is describing here and no one (to my knowledge) has ever complained how a resin caster ripped off Revell.

I am afraid the hobby is full of people who stocked up on Modelhaus product for nefarious reasons- either to re-sell at an inflated price or cast resin copies and then pass them off as their own- and we will see that around for a while. It could be a reason why no one has stepped up and bought the Modelhaus, figuring it's good name and reputation will be trashed by some greedy fast buck types and make it difficult to recoup their investment.

[DoctorLarry]

I suppose that technically if you take an existing styrene kit from Revell or JoHan or someone else and make something different out of it you have utilized the design talents of someone else and you are copying at least part of their work.  In my case, I began with styrene bodies and used their basic characteristics (wheel base length, roof line, etc) to create something that was in the same family as the styrene original (Grand Am and Can Am from Cutlass, Grand Prix from Monte Carlo).  Some elements were minimally modified and some are unrecognizable from the base model.  Are they exact copies? Obviously not but they are radically modified versions of an original base body.  So parts are copied, undeniably.

[Ron Hamilton]

  On 3/2/2018 at 1:47 PM, mikemodeler said:

A good example would be some of the resin Malibu kits from the 78-82 years. Those kits never existed but some smart folks realized that the Revell Chevy Citation was very close and with some reworking, created a resin kit. While not an exact copy of an existing kit, and it did require some work on their behalf to come up with a good looking resin kit, it was similar to what Tim is describing here and no one (to my knowledge) has ever complained how a resin caster ripped off Revell.

I am afraid the hobby is full of people who stocked up on Modelhaus product for nefarious reasons- either to re-sell at an inflated price or cast resin copies and then pass them off as their own- and we will see that around for a while. It could be a reason why no one has stepped up and bought the Modelhaus, figuring it's good name and reputation will be trashed by some greedy fast buck types and make it difficult to recoup their investment.

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The market is going to decide the fate of everything mentioned here.

Over the years I have done a lot of business with The Modelhaus,with the intent of building the kits, and using everything else to repair old builds that I have bought over the years. Unfortunately, I will have to sell off some things, as there is no way that I can build them in my lifetime. I would not have bought items just for speculation of future sales, but some folks have, and the prices are being driven up because some folks can afford to pay a higher price than some of us.

I have been trying to get a particular model or parts of itfor the past three months on EBay and other places, but every one of them, even glue bombs have been bid high, and it is not particularly accurate in the first place.

I say do a few castings of the project, and let the market decide. I may buy one if I can afford it.

[DoctorLarry]

I started doing the Pontiacs for two reasons: I like the body styles (having owned some-still do) and the fact that nobody made kits of them.  Once I made the first one, I watched a video on resin casting and said "I think I could do that". After that, it has been fun to develop new body styles (now onto Buicks) and have folks want to build them. I have made a little money from them, but more importantly it is like any art project-it is satisfying when they are done and you can see them in resin. I just need to stop and actually finish building one!

[Tom Geiger]

  On 3/2/2018 at 1:47 PM, mikemodeler said:

I am afraid the hobby is full of people who stocked up on Modelhaus product for nefarious reasons- either to re-sell at an inflated price or cast resin copies and then pass them off as their own- and we will see that around for a while. It could be a reason why no one has stepped up and bought the Modelhaus, figuring it's good name and reputation will be trashed by some greedy fast buck types and make it difficult to recoup their investment.

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Bingo! The  fast buck recasters may very well have robbed the Holthauses of their retirement fund.

I know of two people who are sitting on scratch built masters of very nice products we'd all enjoy. Their absolute fear is that the minute they offer their quality products for sale,  poor copies will pop up on eBay for a few dollars less, robbing them of the chance to make back their investments.  It's something that will really bite this hobby hard!