Sharpie always rises to the surface

[brad4321]

Like an idiot, (I've made this error before)  I used a red Sharpie to make marks.  How do I cover them up?  Grey primer and silver lacquer didn't do it. Thanks.  

[Snake45]

You should have removed them with rubbing alcohol before you started painting. Not sure if that will solve your problem now, but it wouldn't hurt to try. 

[brad4321]

Thanks.   Should've thought of that.  Careless error on my part.  I'm hoping a few layers of metallizers do the trick. 

[HotRodaSaurus]

What's a 'Sharpie' please, some kind of modelling knife?

 

[Xingu]

What's a 'Sharpie' please, some kind of modelling knife?

 

It is the name of a permanent marker that comes in various colors and tip sizes.

[brad4321]

It is the name of a permanent marker that comes in various colors and tip sizes.

And apparently has an ink that just won't quit. 

[Ace-Garageguy]

What's a 'Sharpie' please, some kind of modelling knife?

 

Sharpie markers, as noted, come in several tip sizes and colors. They use a "permanent" alcohol-based ink and can be useful for a variety of modeling tasks.

HOWEVER...if they're used to mark something and the ink isn't removed from the surface with isopropyl alcohol prior to primering or painting, the ink can leach up through the finish.

[Mark]

I wouldn't chance the alcohol getting into the surface of the plastic, and playing havoc even after the markings themselves have been removed.  Use a pencil.

[Ace-Garageguy]

I wouldn't chance the alcohol getting into the surface of the plastic, and playing havoc even after the markings themselves have been removed.  Use a pencil.

I never recommend anything unless I've tested it extensively and know 100% it will work.

I use 70% isopropyl for a final cleaning after every sanding step, prior to primering or painting. I started using it on real high-end work where "fish eyes" were not an option.

It has served me well for many years, and causes absolutely no problems if allowed to dry thoroughly...which only takes a couple of minutes.

It is one of the very few "cleaners" allowed to touch a surface during structural composite repair work on aircraft.

It is also the only ace-number-one-primo guaranteed way to insure against fisheyes that I've ever found.

The Sharpie ink has additional solvents that are more aggressive, and iso sometimes will not remove all traces...simply because Sharpie ink will often penetrate into the plastic.

However, I have never had any bleed-back of Sharpie ink if I've cleaned as much as possible off the surface with iso.

[Muncie]

  I used a red Sharpie to make marks.  How do I cover them up?  Grey primer and silver lacquer didn't do it. Thanks.  

It sounds like you are already past the point where the surface has been primered and it has a coat of paint - and the Sharpie has bled thru both.  A coat of sealer should take care of it (but Sharpie could still be problematic)  Sealers are made to create a barrier between what's underneath and what's on top.  Not sure what brand primer or type of paint you use, but Duplicolor makes a primer sealer in a rattle can.

[brad4321]

I never recommend anything unless I've tested it extensively and know 100% it will work.

I use 70% isopropyl for a final cleaning after every sanding step, prior to primering or painting. I started using it on real high-end work where "fish eyes" were not an option.

It has served me well for many years, and causes absolutely no problems if allowed to dry thoroughly...which only takes a couple of minutes.

It is one of the very few "cleaners" allowed to touch a surface during structural composite repair work on aircraft.

It is also the only ace-number-one-primo guaranteed way to insure against fisheyes that I've ever found.

The Sharpie ink has additional solvents that are more aggressive, and iso sometimes will not remove all traces...simply because Sharpie ink will often penetrate into the plastic.

However, I have never had any bleed-back of Sharpie ink if I've cleaned as much as possible off the surface with iso.

So here's where I'm at.  Ink, maybe two layers of primer, one layer of metallizers.  The layer of metallizers did hide the ink to a large degree.  I want to put a second layer on to see if that does it, but I also wanted to stop until I have a plan.  What would you suggest is my next move? 

[Ace-Garageguy]

I'd probably try one more coat of metalizer. If that didn't do it, rather than getting a really thick layer of material on the model, I'd most likely sand or strip it down to bare plastic.

[Tom Geiger]

and if you use a Sharpie for detail work, like black panel lines, trim etc...   don't clear coat it!   The Sharpie ink will run.  Guess how I found out?

[Snake45]

I never recommend anything unless I've tested it extensively and know 100% it will work.

I use 70% isopropyl for a final cleaning after every sanding step, prior to primering or painting. I started using it on real high-end work where "fish eyes" were not an option.

It has served me well for many years, and causes absolutely no problems if allowed to dry thoroughly...which only takes a couple of minutes.

It is one of the very few "cleaners" allowed to touch a surface during structural composite repair work on aircraft.

It is also the only ace-number-one-primo guaranteed way to insure against fisheyes that I've ever found.

The Sharpie ink has additional solvents that are more aggressive, and iso sometimes will not remove all traces...simply because Sharpie ink will often penetrate into the plastic.

However, I have never had any bleed-back of Sharpie ink if I've cleaned as much as possible off the surface with iso.

My experiences with Sharpie and alcohol have been exactly the same. 

[brad4321]

The metallizers hid the Sharpie.  Then I primed it, and voila, they're back.  

[brad4321]

It sounds like you are already past the point where the surface has been primered and it has a coat of paint - and the Sharpie has bled thru both.  A coat of sealer should take care of it (but Sharpie could still be problematic)  Sealers are made to create a barrier between what's underneath and what's on top.  Not sure what brand primer or type of paint you use, but Duplicolor makes a primer sealer in a rattle can.

I've never used Duplicolor.  Just purchase any of their sealer primers?  (I'll never make this mistake again.)

[Muncie]

The important word is sealer.  that's the operational word - sealer.

Most primers are not sealers but Duplicolor makes a rattle can primer sealer that does both. It is available at most auto parts stores --- disclosure  - I'm trying the Duplicolor primer sealer tomorrow on a scrap hood that I sharpied up tonight. But I'm sold on sealers because I've used the old lacquer based automotive sealers thru an air brush in the past with success.  Those old sealers did not require mixing, were very thin, went on smooth and never required sanding before the top coats were applied.  They never crazed plastic sprayed on bare plastic straight out of the can, and I could use automotive lacquer top coats.  The one to one paint techniques and materials have changed  - and some of the new stuff is pretty nasty - but I have some of the old lacquer sealer left... I need to see if I can get more if it's still available.  A trip to an automotive pant supplier may lead to a better product - but it has to be a sealer.

Sealers are designed to be used after the body work and primer are complete.  It's like and insurance policy to keep body work, different colors, and other ugly things from bleeding into the top coat.  Duplicolor (and other manufacturers) make several types of primers for different purposes but not all primers are sealers - and some sealers are not primers.  If it just says sealer, it will go over the last coat of primer. 

More thoughts - it sounds like you are working on something that has some time and fabrications invested.  At this point it's kind of a science project to find a solution - It may be best to set that part aside for now - make up some mockups with the same process, shrarpie, primer silver to experiment with  - save the wear and tear on the real part.

There are two things that I never keep in the room where I paint to remove the temptation to use them - permanent markers are one, WD-40 is the other (another story...)

I have some friends that have an old booth from a diner in their basement - they had it reupholstered with a white metalflake vinyl.  It looked great after they got it back but after time, the blue marker that the upholsterer used on the backside started to show thru.  That kind of cured me of using markers unless I wanted something permanent..

Here is a similar issue - might be a good read as well - http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/topic/114755-mythbuster-red-bleed/?page=1

Hope this helps

Edited November 3, 2017 by Muncie

[Muncie]

would a thin layer of super glue make a barrier coat? It seems like that is something that would not react with the base coats or the top coats...  any experience out there?

[Art Anderson]

I wouldn't chance the alcohol getting into the surface of the plastic, and playing havoc even after the markings themselves have been removed.  Use a pencil.

Well, I've used 91% Isopropyl Alcohol to erase Sharpie markings from body shells, and it DOES not "get into" polystyrene whatsoever--it's not a solvent for polystyrene.  Enamel thinner has also done the job for me more than once with Sharpies.

Of course, why use a Sharpie to begin with, when there are much finer tipped artist's pens that do work, with inks that simply wipe off with my fingers?

Art

[Muncie]

Here's my completely unscientific laboratory results....

I applied spots of black sharpie on both sides of my well worn test hood last night.  This afternoon,  I gave one side several coats of Tamiya primer - The spots got worse with every coat and never covered the sharpie - that doesn't mean Tamiya primer is bad  - it's just not compatible over sharpie.  The sharpie bled into the primer which indicates the thinners in the primer are affecting the sharpie.  I scrapped one of the spots with a knife and the sharpie goes all the way thru the primer to the plastic,  Best I can tell, the sharpie did not bleed into the plastic which surprised me.  The spots are blue which indicates to me the colors in the sharpie and primer are blending together.  I think that will happen with most rattle can lacquer based primers.

I used Duplicolor primer sealer  #DAP1699 on the other side. - it went on good and after several thin coats the sharpie disappeared.  We may have something that works.  The Duplicolor sealer comes out kind of dark so it may take a white undercoat over the sealer for light color top coats.  The sealer looks thin, so no detail was lost.  It's smooth enough that it looks like the next color can be sprayed without sanding - or very little sanding depending on you procedures. Rustoleum and probably other paint companies make a similar product.

your results may vary...

phase 2 testing will be a heavy coat of Tamiya primer over the sealer to see if it gets thru and brings the sharpie to the surface.. edit - test result --- Well, heck - wet coats of Tamiya primer did go thru and bring the sharpie back...  I may not have let everything dry thoroughly - well, I know I didn't let it dry.  Tamiya primer does contain alcohol so that may be the curse that keeps coming back.

Hope this helps

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Muncie

[Muncie]

Brad4321 - you still there?

OK, continued testing. Using better technique, I applied a good coat of the Duplicolor 1699 primer-sealer over the last test and let it dry over night.  This morning, I applied a couple of very wet/heavy coats of Tamiya primer to try to draw the sharpie back to the surface like it did before.  Nothing showed up. No sharpie. Just a smooth, clean, paintable surface.  It looks like everything stayed under the sealer where it was supposed to.  I'm satisfied, but there are still some unknowns about what the top coats may do or what may happen over time - should be good.

If in doubt, strip the part, remove the sharpie, and carry on.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Muncie

[HotRodaSaurus]

It is the name of a permanent marker that comes in various colors and tip sizes.

Thanks for that, never heard of it before so I was way off the mark. Basically what we call in England a felt pen, or marker pen, and when shaped a calligraphy pen. I use one that has a .2mm tip, for some reason I have never looked up it is sold as a radiography pen. Comes in handy for marking saw lines etc ?

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's my completely unscientific laboratory results...

 

Actually, what you've done is quite "scientific".

You noticed a problem.

You set up an experiment to try to duplicate the problem.

Then you set up an experiment to try to eliminate the problem. You recorded the results.

That's about as scientific as it gets...unless you do it multiple times exactly the same way to absolutely verify your results.

"Scientific" doesn't necessarily mean a lot of math and special equipment.

All it really means is careful observation.   

[peteski]

Thanks for that, never heard of it before so I was way off the mark. Basically what we call in England a felt pen, or marker pen, and when shaped a calligraphy pen. I use one that has a .2mm tip, for some reason I have never looked up it is sold as a radiography pen. Comes in handy for marking saw lines etc ?

We also have felt-tip pens or markers and calligraphy pens in USA. But those usually use water-soluble inks.  Sharpie is a felt-tip pen (comes in several sizes) but the ink is permanent (waterproof).  I wonder if the radiography pen uses waterproof ink?

[Ace-Garageguy]

...  I wonder if the radiography pen uses waterproof ink?

"Radiography" is x-ray imaging.

I wonder if he means Rapidograph...    

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ace-Garageguy