ISO someone with a brain that knows a thing or two about engines

[426 pack]

I have a 1978 Chrysler newyorker with a 440 that I want to get the engine running but there is a problem with the ignition where it will not send power to the starter. I am wondering is there a way to bypass the ignition (Hotwire) it from under the hood? (the interior is infested with mice and you would probably die if you stay in there to long)

here is a picture of the engine.

I have tried gooooooooooogleing it but I can’t find anything that helps.

[slusher]

The mice could be the problem and chewed some wires. Check you pos and neg battery cables. Could be the solenoid also...

[Fat Brian]

Start with the basics, a good battery and clean terminals. Then start tracing out the wires and making sure they're good. You might have to put the car up on stands and have someone crank it while you're underneath listening to see if the starter is working correctly. Or it shouldn't be too hard to pull it and do a bench test with some jumper cables. If you want to make this a daily driver a new starter and solenoid are probably cheap insurance anyway.

[Ace-Garageguy]

What is the symptom, exactly? (Remember...a doctor doesn't ask you what your illness is; he asks you what your SYMPTOM is, and uses his knowledge to try to determine what the CAUSE is.) Advice is worthless unless the one giving it understands exactly WHAT the symptom is.

Is it simply that when you turn the key, the starter motor won't run?

Besides disconnected wires, or possibly a bad solenoid, there's also a "neutral safety switch" that keeps the starter from running unless the transmission is in neutral or park.

NOTE: Throwing parts at a car until it's fixed is NOT a good habit to get into, though it's very popular with amateurs and a lot of "professionals", unfortunately.

Do you have a wiring diagram for the car? And do you know how to read one? 

A circuit diagram with the right color codes, and the knowledge to use it, are essential if you're going to work on stuff.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Jantrix]

I'm no mechanic but I do know that old gas is never good for an engine. Before she starts up that might be something to change first. That's assuming you haven't of course. If you have, well done, carry on, and I wish you luck.

[JollySipper]

Hey, Cale....... is this the engine you're putting in your truck? If so, I would just pull the engine/trans, put it in the pickup, Then get it running using the wiring the truck has. The old Dodge has a more simple harness than the car does...... 

[Matt Bacon]

How long has it been since the engine's run? It looks kinda "weathered" to me. If it's been a while, even if you could get the starter turning, it's probably not a good idea just to sling in some fuel and crank it... There's some useful general advice here:

http://www.p6club.com/content/recommissioning-p6

best,

M.

[iamsuperdan]

Personally, wiring is the first thing I would check.

Actually, first thing I would do is detail the car from front to back. Especially if there's been a mouse issue. I hate working on dirty vehicles. Once clean, THEN I would check wiring, espcially under the dash, make sure everything is intact. 

After that, I have no idea. lolz.

I'm no mechanic, but I've been around cars and dealerships my whole life, and do my own work on my cars projects, and everything has worked so far.

 

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

There's some reasonable advice above, and some that's not so good.

It IS WISER to find if the engine runs PRIOR to doing all the work involved in an engine swap. If the engine has problems, you may want to get something else, or do whatever major or minor repairs it might require when it's OUT of the donor vehicle, BEFORE putting it in the recipient.

Matt makes a good point about "recommissioning" but something that article left out is the wisdom of taking the plugs out and squirting some oil in each cylinder BEFORE you go cranking on the starter. Any lubrication the pistons and rings had long ago is gone, and if the engine DOES miraculously start on the first crank, you don't want the pistons to be dry in their bores.

Also, let the oil sit in the cylinders for a while, and turn the engine through by hand, if possible, and once you get the starter working, turn the engine through WITH THE PLUGS OUT enough to blow any EXCESS oil back out of the cylinders.

If that particular carb is one of the electronic-feedback-loop styles, it's most likely useless at this point too. At some time, you're going to want to replace it with something simpler, lacking all the built-in failure modes, so why not take it off NOW, tear it down, clean it out, and reinstall it with at least a decent chance of functioning properly?

Of course, I've only been building race cars, high-end hot-rods, and restoring vintage cars...as well as designing and fabricating parts and vehicle systems...for almost 50 years, so my advice might be considerably less valuable than what you get from somebody else.

[Ace-Garageguy]

One more piece of advice (well, two pieces, really)...if you don't already have one, GET a service manual for the particular vehicle. Get an old PRINTED one.

Spend the money for the factory books, and learn to rely on them.

Though the internet can be a great research tool if you already know a LOT about the information you're after, it is also FULL OF IDIOT BS posted by me-too-wannabes who don't have a clue.

A lot of "mechanics" today seem to get all their info from the web, which is part of the reason why there are a LOT of mechanics now who can't fix anything. Ever hear the expression "the blind leading the blind"?

It's also necessary to understand the science and physics of how and why engines and vehicle systems operate...assuming that you want to be good at this stuff.

My first job after engineering school was as an apprentice mechanic, working under a guy who worked on model T Fords when they were new.

He instilled in me the NEED to fully understand the BASICS, and once you do, you can work on ANYTHING.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Matt Bacon]

One last thing... any engine that has been sitting for a while is going to be full of seals that have dried up, or gone out of shape where the thing they are sealing has rested on the same spot for a long time, or both. Expect that you're potentially going to have to replace quite a number of seals, hoses and the like to stop the thing bleeding oil and water like a stuck pig once it starts running...

best,

M.

[426 pack]

Thanks for the help guys.

Here is some more info. The car gets power to the interior (the heater is turned on) but the stater doesn’t even make a sound when I turn the key, when I try to start it I always use a battery booster (the booster I use can start a big tractor without a battery), it was last registered in 2001 and it is going to go in my truck.

I also want to get it started before I pull it out of the car so I can be sure that I’m putting a running motor in my truck.

Edited May 16, 2018 by 426 pack

[blunc]

the car may have a neutral safety switch malfunction, have you tried it in park and/or neutral?

some mechanics would activate the starter solenoid manually but the above advice about oiling the cylinders before cranking a dormant engine should not be ignored.

my father's favorite lube for this is Marvel Mystery Oil.

 

[iamsuperdan]

4 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

One more piece of advice (well, two pieces, really)...if you don't already have one, GET a service manual for the particular vehicle. Get an old PRINTED one.

Spend the money for the factory books, and learn to rely on them.

 

 

 

Can't agree with this enough! Working on water cooled VW, the factory issued "Bentley" books were must have reference material. Yeah, they're expensive, but totally worth it. More reliable and more accurate than any website or You Tube video!

Had a few factory manuals for my Jeeps over the years too, and they always had the answers I sought.

 

 

 

[blunc]

3 hours ago, 426 pack said:

Thanks for the help guys.

Here is some more info. The car gets power to the interior (the heater is turned on) but the stater doesn’t even make a sound when I turn the key, when I try to start it I always use a battery booster (the booster I use can start a big tractor without a battery), it was last registered in 2001 and it is going to go in my truck.

I also want to get it started before I pull it out of the car so I can be sure that I’m putting a running motor in my truck.

I suggest that you really don't need to get it started, you really only need to crank it over to see if there are any cylinders that have no compression.

Everything else is just engine tuning /service.

It probly has a thermoquad on it, not a bad carb if you know how to work on them. I put one on my 68 firebird since it was in better shape than the Q-jet that was on it, ran real good.

[Fat Brian]

I didn't realize the scope of this project when I first posted. Do as Bill suggests and yank the plugs and squirt a little oil in the cylinders then turn the motor over with a big breaker bar. Getting it running where it is now shouldn't really be the goal, you just need to be able to spin it over enough to do a compression test to verify if it's worth further effort. If you're getting power to the interior start checking for a blown fuse, I also agree about the neutral safety switch, try starting it in neutral instead of park. This is kind of hack but might give you an indication of what's going on, try starting it with the headlights on. If the lights only dim a little the starter probably isn't getting the signal to fire, if they dim a lot the starter is likely trying to start but is frozen up somehow.

[Ace-Garageguy]

Geez.

If the car was in MY shop, I could tell you within a few hours exactly what condition the engine was in and have it running as well as possible within the constraints of what's there. And the very FIRST thing I'd do is go in the office, and pull all the specs and the wiring diagram...before I wasted time doing ANYTHING else.

Trying to diagnose something over the internet is often futile, but if you understand vehicle wiring, how things are SUPPOSED to work, and have some decent reference material, I can walk you through it.

Couple more things.

1) I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you get the engine running BEFORE you pull it out of the car. A compression test won't tell you if you have a blown head gasket, or a cracked block, or worn out lifters and valve stem seals, or several other things...like whether it has any oil pressure, and whether the rod bearings are all worn out and knocking.

While you DO need to do a compression test BEFORE you try to start the poor thing, it's not enough to make the call as to whether the engine is good.

And THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL I'D SWAP AN ENGINE INTO ANYTHING NOT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT CONDITION IT IS IN.

2) Power is probably going to the main starter terminal. Often times, the big HOT wire going to the fuse box comes directly off of that terminal too. You NEED to determine if this is the case.

THEN YOU NEED TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE CAR HAS A STARTER RELAY MOUNTED AWAY FROM THE STARTER. MANY MOPARS DO.

If it DOES, a jumper wire from the hot side of the battery to the CORRECT terminal will cause the starter to engage and turn, even if the key isn't turned. That will usually bypass the neutral-safety switch too.

There are really very simple and straightforward diagnostic procedures to follow here...BUT YOU NEED A WIRING DIAGRAM TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

The world is full of chimps dancing around cars waving tools, without ANY logical approach to diagnostics whatsoever. Don't become one of them.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

And here's another reason I HATE trying to find hard-core tech info on the interdwerbs.

There's TONS of USELESS EXCREMENT like this RETARD has posted, cluttering up relevant results:

http://nickfayos.club/chrysler-new-yorker-wiring-diagram/

And THIS ONE ISN'T FOR THE RIGHT CAR EITHER...USELESS DWERBS !!!!!!

http://alexdapiata.com/1978-chrysler-wiring-diagram/repair-guides-wiring-diagrams-engine-control-schematic-3l-8l-new-yorker-dynasty-fifth-ave-and-imperial-chrysler-cordoba-diagram-chrysler/

Edited May 16, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[mikemodeler]

8 hours ago, 426 pack said:

Thanks for the help guys.

Here is some more info. The car gets power to the interior (the heater is turned on) but the stater doesn’t even make a sound when I turn the key, when I try to start it I always use a battery booster (the booster I use can start a big tractor without a battery), it was last registered in 2001 and it is going to go in my truck.

I also want to get it started before I pull it out of the car so I can be sure that I’m putting a running motor in my truck.

My concern here is that the car hasn't been registered since 2001, any idea if they started and ran the engine since then? As was also mentioned, pull the starter and test it, could be froze up or rusted  to the flywheel. 

If your immediate need is to determine whether the engine runs, some time spent checking all of the wiring as it relates to the engine will be necessary before trying to start it. 

[blunc]

I would express concern about trying to use the carb on this engine as it currently sits.

The thermoquad carb has internal mainwell seals that dry out (and crack/leak) if not kept immersed in fuel, this causes major carb problems...

I am not expert in all the areas Bill is but I do have a lot of experience in this era of automotive fuel and ignition systems.

My respects to mikemodeler...but, pulling the starter would not be my first step in diagnosing an engine cranking problem.

If you know that this car was driven to where it sits now, there should be no wiring problems unless critters have been eating it since it was parked.

Even without a manual, checking all the fluids will tell you a lot about the motor without turning a wrench.

If this motor is viable, don't contaminate it with old gas (if there is any in the tank).

[426 pack]

Thanks everyone I will take and use as much of the advice as possible. I will let you guys know how it goes when I start working on it. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by 426 pack

[Jantrix]

13 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

And here's another reason I HATE trying to find hard-core tech info on the interdwerbs.

There's TONS of USELESS EXCREMENT like this RETARD has posted, cluttering up relevant results:

http://nickfayos.club/chrysler-new-yorker-wiring-diagram/

And THIS ONE ISN'T FOR THE RIGHT CAR EITHER...USELESS DWERBS !!!!!!

http://alexdapiata.com/1978-chrysler-wiring-diagram/repair-guides-wiring-diagrams-engine-control-schematic-3l-8l-new-yorker-dynasty-fifth-ave-and-imperial-chrysler-cordoba-diagram-chrysler/

Don't mince words Bill, tell us how you really feel.   Gotta love a guy who's that passionate about his work.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 hour ago, Jantrix said:

Don't mince words Bill, tell us how you really feel.   Gotta love a guy who's that passionate about his work.

I was trying to find him a wiring diagram to refer to, or at least to be able to tell him the color-codes of wires to check, and their locations, but the sheer preponderance of internet idiocy can be beyond frustrating...especially in light of the fact that so many "tech savvy" fools have such disdain for the printed word, and seem to think that the answer to everything in in their moron-phone.

It ain't.

My own hard-copy wiring diagram library is very light on US cars of his period, but we probably have it in the larger shop I work with...though I'm the only one who ever opens an actual "book" there. And...ahem...I'm the go-to guy for anything electrical that requires diagnostics or custom work beyond follow-the-directions-in-the-box (which most of them fail to do anyway, and then wonder why their stuff won't work).

Edited May 17, 2018 by Ace-Garageguy

[Ace-Garageguy]

Here's what looks like a good reference on the Carter Thermoquad. Knowing as much as you can about whatever you're trying to fix is the goal.

Yours appears to be an interim emissions model, setup for "lean burn". This is not a performance carb.

https://carbkitsource.com/tech/Carter/pages/tqguide-Vaanth.html

[JollySipper]

On 5/16/2018 at 8:41 AM, JollySipper said:

Hey, Cale....... is this the engine you're putting in your truck? If so, I would just pull the engine/trans, put it in the pickup, Then get it running using the wiring the truck has. The old Dodge has a more simple harness than the car does...... 

Cale, looks like I gave you some bad advice, man and I apologize......... I had the idea the engine had run since it has, and I was thinking I would want to get it out of the possible rats nest of a wiring harness........ once you start running current through those wires, you could start a fire among other problems. 

That was my concern, but you should listen to Bill, as he's the man with electric systems............. 

Sorry