MOPAR

[porschercr]

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2020/02/19/mopar-muscle-car-facts-every-enthusiast-should-know?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20_February_20_Newsletter_NewDD

[Richard Bartrop]

So if the Barracuda was the first "pony" car, maybe they should be called... fishy cars?

[High octane]

2 hours ago, porschercr said:

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2020/02/19/mopar-muscle-car-facts-every-enthusiast-should-know?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20_February_20_Newsletter_NewDD

Very interesting and thanks for sharing.

[Snake45]

1 hour ago, Richard Bartrop said:

So if the Barracuda was the first "pony" car, maybe they should be called... fishy cars?

The case could certainly be made. 

The case could also be made that the Barracuda wasn't even a "ponycar" at all until 1970, because until that year it didn't have the long hood and short deck that were the defining characteristics of the breed. They had the proportions of a compact (like a Nova), although a very "sporty" one. 

[espo]

The first Barracudas were just a Valiant with a really big rear window. I'm not saying this to run down the Valiant since they were basically a good little car. I think Plymouth knew something was a foot at Ford and they didn't have time or money to develop a completely new car from the ground up. You have to remember even the Mustang was mostly a Falcon underneath. The Camaro / Firebird was based on the Chevy II.   

[Snake45]

1 hour ago, espo said:

The Camaro / Firebird was based on the Chevy II.   

You've got that one backwards. The '68 and up Nova was based on the first-gen F-body (Camaro/Firebird), which had little in common with the '66-'67 Nova. The F-bodies and the 3rd gen Novas were basically engineered at the same time. 

[THarrison351]

The fact that the Daytona was faster than the Superbird didn't help it win races. The two seasons it was competitive it only won six times. The Superbird was competitive one season and won eight times. Of course Richard Petty and Petty Enterprise probably had something to do with that.

[THarrison351]

4 minutes ago, Snake45 said:

You've got that one backwards. The '68 and up Nova was based on the first-gen F-body (Camaro/Firebird), which had little in common with the '66-'67 Nova. The F-bodies and the 3rd gen Novas were basically engineered at the same time. 

Oh I see it now please disregard

Edited February 21, 2020 by THarrison351

[espo]

12 hours ago, Snake45 said:

You've got that one backwards. The '68 and up Nova was based on the first-gen F-body (Camaro/Firebird), which had little in common with the '66-'67 Nova. The F-bodies and the 3rd gen Novas were basically engineered at the same time. 

In many was you are correct based upon the release of the Camaro, F model, as a '67 year model and the Nova, X model, as a '68 year model. The Nova , or Super Nova goes back to it's first appearance at the New York Auto Show in 1964 as a styling exercise at the show. GM upper management had been sitting on their hands about both the X car and even the F car which at that time was being developed behind the X. GM's thinking was that the '65 Corvair could match the new Mustang. They had just launched a new Impala, had the new Chevelle that was selling very well, and a revamped Corvair and didn't want to do another car at that time per what I have read. The sales of the new Mustang turned out better than what Ford even hopped for. Ralph Nader wrote a disparaging book about the handling of the Corvair based on the previous year models handling. Chevrolet Dealers had a hard time selling the '65 models after that even though the book was about a vehicle that had a much different chassis under it. GM Management came to realize they needed to step up the F model asap. The X model then jumped ahead of the planed X model with one big problem for the F's. This had to do with the cowl height area and some other minor hardware issues. The F & X shared the same cowl height when they went into production. I know you are a former owner of an early Camaro and I owned a '69 for a total of over 15 years. In many ways it was like you were sitting on the floor, because you were, of a '68 Chevy II. The chassis of the Chevy II for 1968 was designed to replace the '66 & '67 model Chevy II. When the F model was sped up ahead of the X to come to market as a '67 year model much of its basic chassis design was developed for the X model that came to market as a '68 year model. Much of this I knew at the time just because I'm a car nerd, but much more accurate information was found in a book by Michael Lamm called "the Great Camaro". The one I bought many years ago was the second printing dated May, 1979. For someone who would be interested in the subject it is interesting and gives a lot of the back ground on GM's thinking at the time. 

[Mike 1017]

This debate goes on and on. The Mustang IMOP is the first Pony car and then the term was used to describe the Barracuda 

Another debate. Is the 1949 Oldsmobile 88 the first Muscle Car.?

Mike

[SCRWDRVR]

9 minutes ago, Mike 1017 said:

This debate goes on and on. The Mustang IMOP is the first Pony car and then the term was used to describe the Barracuda 

Another debate. Is the 1949 Oldsmobile 88 the first Muscle Car.?

Mike

Another example would be they call the Caravan the first mini van but I personally would say a VW Micro bus is a mini van

Edited February 21, 2020 by SCRWDRVR

[Mike 1017]

Check out Wikipedia. This is the Stout Scarab. Considered the first Mini Van.

[tim boyd]

There is some very good historical backup for the "fact"/bullet point that several factory-built 1965 Dodge Coronets were run down the line with "Street" Hemi engines (not A990 Hemis), though none were sold to the public.  And if you know in detail the content of the AMT (engineered and produced by MPC) 1965 Dodge Coronet 500 annual kit, you know why it is my suspicion that the 1965 426 Hemi Coronet 500 2 door prototype referenced in the article is in fact the exact car the MPC scaled for their annual kit....

But as for the commenter who insisted in several follow-up posts that his cousin had a factory built 1963 426 Hemi Fury, ah...well...uh-huh.  Must have been converted at a later date, as there is no documentation in the Mopar community to suggest such a car ever existed, plus even the race 426 Hemi did not exist in final form until past the start of the 1964 model year, much less the Street version which came even later.....    TB 

Edited February 21, 2020 by tim boyd

[1972coronet]

Check out Martyn Schorr's (former editor of the long-defunct High-Performance CARS magazine )  excellent book Day One .

Here's a slice of 1965 Coronet 500 Hemi Prototype :  https://books.google.com/books?id=Ic5EDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=martyn+schorr+tests+a+1965+hemi+coronet&source=bl&ots=p637QVvUH5&sig=ACfU3U0IT9qsW6W6nW-7vAShxyVSvZ2PTw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiH-6OVtePnAhVMOq0KHRoMDm4Q6AEwDXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=martyn schorr tests a 1965 hemi coronet&f=false

[Jon Haigwood]

On 2/20/2020 at 10:36 AM, Snake45 said:

The case could certainly be made. 

The case could also be made that the Barracuda wasn't even a "ponycar" at all until 1970, because until that year it didn't have the long hood and short deck that were the defining characteristics of the breed. They had the proportions of a compact (like a Nova), although a very "sporty" one. 

In my humble opinion that dog don't hunt. My criteria for a Pony car is a Compact with a High performance small block.This would be  the 66 Barracuda with the S package and the Mustang  with the GT package  Nothing to do with hood or deck lengths. In 1970 Barracudas were getting out of the compact car range into the mid sized range. The 66 Barracuda was the first Barracuda     without the Valiant badgeing  and had a Barracuda fish on the grille, for me this was the first Barracuda and not a Valiant with a sport roof with or without the Barracuda badge.

If it had a big block it was a Muscle car

[Snake45]

12 minutes ago, Jon Haigwood said:

In my humble opinion that dog don't hunt. My criteria for a Pony car is a Compact with a High performance small block.This would be  the 66 Barracuda with the S package and the Mustang  with the GT package  Nothing to do with hood or deck lengths. In 1970 Barracudas were getting out of the compact car range into the mid sized range. The 66 Barracuda was the first Barracuda     without the Valiant badgeing  and had a Barracuda fish on the grille, for me this was the first Barracuda and not a Valiant with a sport roof with or without the Barracuda badge.

If it had a big block it was a Muscle car

By your definition, a '66 L79 Chevy II would be a ponycar. I've never heard a '66 Nova called a ponycar, regardless of engine. Or any other year, come to think of it. 

[Tom Geiger]

In the Barracuda vs Mustang debate, history loses perspective of the size of these companies, development funds available and production capacity. Yes, Mustang was a huge phenomena. It was the right car at the right time, but Barracuda was a big success for Chrysler and added to their bottom line.

In parallel when Chrysler designed the Ram pickup with big rig styling, they knew it was a radical change from what was on the market at the time. Their sales target was to capture 10  percent of the large pickup market. They were taken by surprise by the public reaction and subsequent demand. They completely taxed their manufacturing capacities and took a 20 percent market share that first year. And they could’ve sold more if they had the ability to produce them. It was a huge success for little Chrysler.

Still armchair historians who just look at production numbers will deduce and write that the Ram pickup was a failure since it “only captured 20 percent of the market, far behind GM and Ford”.  

[Jon Haigwood]

1 hour ago, Snake45 said:

By your definition, a '66 L79 Chevy II would be a ponycar. I've never heard a '66 Nova called a ponycar, regardless of engine. Or any other year, come to think of it. 

Well actually "yes" I would consider it a Pony Car. I have seen a lot of Nova street racers. I would even think about including the 61/63 Pontiac Tempest with the 215 Aluminum block 2 br with Saginaw 4sp. In 63 they offered the 327. Very fast little cars. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Jon Haigwood

[Bucky]

Here ya go, folks............

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

[Snake45]

3 minutes ago, Bucky said:

Here ya go, folks............

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

Yup! 

Pony car is an American car classification for affordable, compact, highly styled coupés or convertibles with a "sporty" or performance-oriented image. Common characteristics include rear-wheel drive, a long hood, a short decklid,

[Jon Haigwood]

8 minutes ago, Bucky said:

Here ya go, folks............

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

The first pony car to be released was the Plymouth Barracuda, which went on sale on April 1, 1964 (two weeks before the Ford Mustang).^[10] The Barracuda was released as a fastback coupe, based on the platform of the Plymouth Valiant compact car

[1972coronet]

I'd rather have a 1965-1966  Valiant coupe with the 273 Commando / 4-speed / Fast-Ratio manual steering / disc brakes , than an comparably-equipped Barracuda .

Even as a life-long MoPar fan (  sans favourtism ) , I've never been a fan of the 1964-1966 Barracuda . That gigantic backlight is just too much ! Weighs a tonne , too .

The first generation Mustangs were / are beautiful , no matter which body style ( hardtop coupe , convertible , or fastback et alia ) . I'll take a K-Code hardtop coupe / 4-speed / 3.89 gear / disc brakes , please . 

[1972coronet]

On-Topic : The decent article failed to mention the 1972 "V" Code Charger and Road Runner . Obscure ? Certainly . It was the last multi-carb'ed , high-compression engine , north-of-300hp engine produced anywhere .

[Scott8950]

42 minutes ago, 1972coronet said:

I'd rather have a 1965-1966  Valiant coupe with the 273 Commando / 4-speed / Fast-Ratio manual steering / disc brakes , than an comparably-equipped Barracuda .

 

ABSOLUTELY!  I have a good friend that has one with a very healthy 340 in it now. His is auto with i think a 3800 stall convertor in it, probably somewhere around 400hp and its wicked fast.

[Snake45]

1 hour ago, Jon Haigwood said:

The first pony car to be released was the Plymouth Barracuda, which went on sale on April 1, 1964 (two weeks before the Ford Mustang).^[10] The Barracuda was released as a fastback coupe, based on the platform of the Plymouth Valiant compact car

But by your own reasoning/definition, then, the Barracuda couldn't have been the first ponycar, as it was already preceded by the Valiant compact! 

The prosecution rests.