Rattle can lacquer finish questions

[Belugawrx]

If I see orange peel develop on my first 'mist' coat, I will wet sand with 800g or 1000g and continue with another 'mist' then wet coat.

And remember, you just want enough base(colour) to cover,..no need to go heavy on colour..clear on the other hand should be thick enough for some wet sanding / polishing

My 2cents

[ctruss53]

3 hours ago, atomicholiday said:

So let’s say you shoot a color coat (or clear) and start to get orange peel.  I assume you should stop there, let it cure, and wet sand.  
When you spray the next coat after sanding, should it be treated like a tack coat again?  Or should you just spray like you already did a tack coat?  

No, I don't sand during the process unless it it REALLY bad.

If you lay down a few light color coats and you have some orange peel, apply a slightly heavire final color coat. Applying more paint can reduce orange peel.

I apply clear even if the color coat has orange some orange peel. I apply clear in a few light coats and then 1 or 2 wet coats. The wet coats again can reduce orange peel.

Then I do all my wet sanding and polishing after the clear is cured.

[D.Pack]

16 hours ago, Dave G. said:

I just want to mention one thing before I'm done with the thread. That has to do with the sets of polishing pads, the little square ones you may be scuffing . In terms of grit they are not each or all created equal compared to wet and dry name brand paper. A given grit isn't always the same in another brand. It probably has to do with international standards on such things. So for instance you may think you're scuffing with 1500 and in something else that may be more like 600 or 800. Somewhere along the way I read an article on this but also by experience I know there can be quite the difference sometimes, especially with no name Amazon brands.

Norton 800 wet and dry will be 800 though. Or 1000, 1200 etc. And it's all ok as long as you're working it within your own system and understand what smooth is or coarse with your own pads. Just when we start telling others do such and , well it might not match with their system.

Have a great weekend everyone, I'm done here for now !

Even with the various genuine MicroMesh, there are also 'equivalent' differences.

And between USA and Euro.

800 USA = 1500 Euro, with USA having finer grades of regular paper.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by D.Pack

[Rick L]

Lacquer shrinks. That’s the nature of the beast. Heat the can up for 15 minutes in a hot tap water bath and shake occasionally. This increases the pressure in the can. The paint will come out smoother and create less orange peel. The first coat should be light but even and dry to touch within 5-10 minutes. The second coat should cover completely with as little paint as possible and dry to touch within 15-20 minutes. Put enough paint on the third coat to get the full gloss effect. Don’t add more it won’t get glossier. Don’t sand between coats. It’s a waste of time unless you have an imperfection. If you see an imperfection like dust or hair appear while painting, STOP, let the paint dry, sand it out with 800 grit and continue. Don’t add more paint thinking it will cover. It won’t.

[StevenGuthmiller]

1 hour ago, Rick L said:

Heat the can up for 15 minutes in a hot tap water bath and shake occasionally.

This!

 

It's always beneficial to warm your spray cans, regardless of what brand or type of paint you're using.

I don't bother with it for primer, and I use an airbrush for 90% of my color coats, but I warm the clear coat spray cans that I use for each coat.

 

 

 

Steve

[Bills72sj]

13 hours ago, Rick L said:

Lacquer shrinks. That’s the nature of the beast. Heat the can up for 15 minutes in a hot tap water bath and shake occasionally. This increases the pressure in the can. The paint will come out smoother and create less orange peel. The first coat should be light but even and dry to touch within 5-10 minutes. The second coat should cover completely with as little paint as possible and dry to touch within 15-20 minutes. Put enough paint on the third coat to get the full gloss effect. Don’t add more it won’t get glossier. Don’t sand between coats. It’s a waste of time unless you have an imperfection. If you see an imperfection like dust or hair appear while painting, STOP, let the paint dry, sand it out with 800 grit and continue. Don’t add more paint thinking it will cover. It won’t.

I have eventually figured out spraying lacquer using the same procedures. They have given me the best results.

[Rick L]

The quality assurance inspector at G.M. would be proud.😁

[atomicholiday]

Thanks to all of you who chimed in.  There’s some great info here that I think will really be helpful to me and hopefully many others who struggle with this step.👍

[jacko]

Steve Guthmiller,

I'm sure you have answered this in other threads, but could you please give the details of your polishing sequence done only after all painting and clear is dry. I know it will take years to reach your level of perfection, and I'd like to start in the right place.

Thanks, John

[StevenGuthmiller]

40 minutes ago, jacko said:

Steve Guthmiller,

I'm sure you have answered this in other threads, but could you please give the details of your polishing sequence done only after all painting and clear is dry. I know it will take years to reach your level of perfection, and I'd like to start in the right place.

Thanks, John

My process is pretty simple.

 

I start with the finest grit possible to remove any orange peel or blemishes present.

I use Micro-Mesh pads, so 3600 is usually a good starting point for me.

I sand until the surface is smooth, or at least as smooth as possible, and then move on to the next finer grit.

You can use the pads wet, or dry, but I prefer to use them just very lightly dampened.

Just to relieve the monotony, I will usually concentrate on one section of the body at a time.

Maybe just the trunk lid area, or one side of the body to start, and go through the entire process on that area before moving on to the next section, but that's not necessary.

Just my preference.

Once smooth, I move on the next finest grit, which is just to remove the scratches from the previous pad, and begin to shine up the paint.

4.000, 6,000, 8,000, and finally 12,000.

Once you have progressed through all of the pads, you should end up with a very smooth, and relatively shiny surface.

Then I proceed with the liquid polishes.

 

I use Novus polishes, but generally prefer to skip the #3 "heavy scratch remover" unless it's absolutely necessary.

I will usually start with the #2 "fine scratch remover".

Polish everything, usually doing a couple of applications of the #2, on every panel.

This should net a very nice, smooth, shiny, and even finish.

But at this point, I give it at least one, maybe 2 more applications of Turtle Wax "scratch and swirl remover".

I've found that this product will really bring up the shine to a high luster.

 

Bear in mind that the thicker the coating of clear coat that you have to work with, the less chance that you'll have of polishing through the clear down to the color on the high points and body lines, but I still will be careful and use light pressure in these areas.

In most cases, these high points will generally be smoother to start than the rest of the surface any way, due to the fact that paint tends to draw away from them as the paint dries.

But this also means that the paint is thinner in those areas, so extra caution is required.

I might skip sanding those body creases entirely with the heavier grits and rely on a few light passes with the last 3 or so finest grits to ensure no burn through.

Use care in those areas with the liquid polishes as well, as they will also remove a small amount of paint.

 

Finally, when polishing is complete, give the body a cleaning in warm water and dish soap to help clean away any polishing material residue from the panel lines, etc.

I will often use a round tooth pick, sharpened to a fine chisel point to scrape away any polish stuck down in the deep panel recesses.

 

Finally, once the model is all but completely assembled and ready for the shelf, I give it a once over with Novus #1, "clean and shine".

This will help remove finger prints and smudges left during the assembly process, and also helps with static dust.

 

Oh, and by the way, a soft cotton cloth of some sort works very well for the liquid polishing processes.

A piece of old cotton t-shirt, or soft cotton flannel works great!

 

This process by no means takes years to perfect.

It's actually a pretty basic procedure.

Anyone, no matter your experience level, can master polishing pretty quickly.

And then sit back and enjoy the fact that you can achieve beautiful, nearly perfect paint jobs with a little elbow grease when other guys are still wasting their lives trying to achieve that "perfect" paint job right out of the can or airbrush through years of laborious trials and techniques, in the hopes that someday they'll get it right....... because they don't want to sweat a little today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[atomicholiday]

21 minutes ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

My process is pretty simple.

 

I start with the finest grit possible to remove any orange peel or blemishes present.

I use Micro-Mesh pads, so 3600 is usually a good starting point for me.

I sand until the surface is smooth, or at least as smooth as possible, and then move on to the next finer grit.

You can use the pads wet, or dry, but I prefer to use them just very lightly dampened.

Just to relieve the monotony, I will usually concentrate on one section of the body at a time.

Maybe just the trunk lid area, or one side of the body to start, and go through the entire process on that area before moving on to the next section, but that's not necessary.

Just my preference.

Once smooth, I move on the next finest grit, which is just to remove the scratches from the previous pad, and begin to shine up the paint.

4.000, 6,000, 8,000, and finally 12,000.

Once you have progressed through all of the pads, you should end up with a very smooth, and relatively shiny surface.

Then I proceed with the liquid polishes.

 

I use Novus polishes, but generally prefer to skip the #3 "heavy scratch remover" unless it's absolutely necessary.

I will usually start with the #2 "fine scratch remover".

Polish everything, usually doing a couple of applications of the #2, on every panel.

This should net a very nice, smooth, shiny, and even finish.

But at this point, I give it at least one, maybe 2 more applications of Turtle Wax "scratch and swirl remover".

I've found that this product will really bring up the shine to a high luster.

 

Bear in mind that the thicker the coating of clear coat that you have to work with, the less chance that you'll have of polishing through the clear down to the color on the high points and body lines, but I still will be careful and use light pressure in these areas.

In most cases, these high points will generally be smoother to start than the rest of the surface any way, due to the fact that paint tends to draw away from them as the paint dries.

But this also means that the paint is thinner in those areas, so extra caution is required.

I might skip sanding those body creases entirely with the heavier grits and rely on a few light passes with the last 3 or so finest grits to ensure no burn through.

Use care in those areas with the liquid polishes as well, as they will also remove a small amount of paint.

 

Finally, when polishing is complete, give the body a cleaning in warm water and dish soap to help clean away any polishing material residue from the panel lines, etc.

I will often use a round tooth pick, sharpened to a fine chisel point to scrape away any polish stuck down in the deep panel recesses.

 

Finally, once the model is all but completely assembled and ready for the shelf, I give it a once over with Novus #1, "clean and shine".

This will help remove finger prints and smudges left during the assembly process, and also helps with static dust.

 

Oh, and by the way, a soft cotton cloth of some sort works very well for the liquid polishing processes.

A piece of old cotton t-shirt, or soft cotton flannel works great!

 

This process by no means takes years to perfect.

It's actually a pretty basic procedure.

Anyone, no matter your experience level, can master polishing pretty quickly.

And then sit back and enjoy the fact that you can achieve beautiful, nearly perfect paint jobs with a little elbow grease when other guys are still wasting their lives trying to achieve that "perfect" paint job right out of the can or airbrush through years of laborious trials and techniques, in the hopes that someday they'll get it right....... because they don't want to sweat a little today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Steve, do you ever mask off the high points and ridge lines during this process?

 

Also, I’ve heard that very only very light pressure is used when sanding.  Correct?

Edited May 31, 2023 by atomicholiday

[StevenGuthmiller]

5 minutes ago, atomicholiday said:

Steve, do you ever mask off the high points and ridge lines during this process?

I never do.

But it's a consideration.

 

I'm just careful and vigilant in those areas.

Doing your polishing under magnification is helpful, and I usually have little problem with it.

 

 

Steve

Edited May 31, 2023 by StevenGuthmiller

[shucky]

To the OP, as someone else here already stated, paint jobs, like everything else related to building a model can get overly complicated by people. Don't believe me? Look at how hard some people make resin casting (it isn't). I see a lot of general information here, but what seems to be missing is the fact that all paint brands spray differently. What works for Tamiya spray cans does not necessarily work when spraying DupliColor. For example, Tamiya spray paint tends to be on the thin side. In my humble opinion, this makes it a bit more difficult to spray than DupliColor Lacquer. You have to build up layers of Tamiya spray while avoiding runs, etc. through a series of several color coats. Also remember, the more coats of anything being sprayed is more opportunity for something to go wrong. If you want to achieve spectacular paint with minimal effort and are okay with sticking with spray cans for now, your best bet is mastering DupliColor first. Ready to be blown away? You absolutely do not have to build up "mist" coats or spray multiple layers over long periods of time when using DupliColor lacquer. I have NEVER sprayed multiple layers of DupliColor in 30+ years. In fact, 100% of the time I can lay the color down in one single spray session (and you can also!). DupliColor has excellent coverage and dries almost immediately. This is why you can paint an entire car body in one painting session with no runs and no orange peel. There is no secret here. Just spray at a slow to moderate pace spraying past the model body and overlapping with each pass. Work your way around the body until your desired coverage is achieved. Because it dries so fast, you may continue to spray after only a minute until everything is perfect. After clearing using DupliColor clear (2-3 coats) you can simply rub out the paint with Scratch-X. I assure you, polishing using 15 different grits of sandpaper over the course of several hours or days is so unnecessary. I'm not knocking people who do it, but it is certainly not necessary and there is no discernable difference when comparing side by side. So long as your primer is nice and smooth, you should not have to touch sandpaper after that unless you get debris in the paint which requires fixing. Why do I make these comments? Because I used to overly complicate painting and polished using 15 different grits of sandpaper for hours on end. It was awful and I hated it. Good luck and happy building!

[StevenGuthmiller]

Maybe at this point some examples of people's work might be helpful to back up their techniques.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, but with as much time as I spend on various social media sites, I can attest to how often I see people making statements about how nice their favorite technique works, whether it be paint related, or something else, only to find once photographic proof is provided, that it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Very often, we get a lot of lip service on these issues, but not a lot of evidence to back it up.

 

The Molotow chrome issue in particular comes to mind.

I can't tell you how often I've heard statements about how Molotow will give you results just as good as foil, but upon inspection you find otherwise the vast majority of the time.

I've tried this experiment a few times, and it's usually quite telling.

When you ask someone to "show me" how their claimed results are just as good as, or better than another, more often than not, you get nothing but crickets.

That's not to say that there are not those out there that can produce an exemplary finished product with whatever their product or technique of choice is, but there are a lot more who's standards are not very high who for some reason or another feel that they should be advising others on their techniques, only to find that it's not always that impressive once you see it. (Mostly I'm thinking of Facebook in this regard)

Nobody has everything figured out, (myself included) but I have no compunctions about offering up some evidence to illustrate my successes, (or failures for that matter)

 

That said, I'll throw in a few examples of my work, and they can be taken or left, but they are at least a true picture of what you can expect if you use the techniques and materials that I do.

Some of these were painted with and airbrush and aftermarket, hobby related paints, and some with Duplicolor.

All polished in the end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

 

 

[atomicholiday]

Steve,  your work never fails to impress.   And it's not only your workmanship,  but color choices too.   Very tasteful. 

[ctruss53]

3 hours ago, StevenGuthmiller said:

My process is pretty simple.

 

I start with the finest grit possible to remove any orange peel or blemishes present.

I use Micro-Mesh pads, so 3600 is usually a good starting point for me.

I sand until the surface is smooth, or at least as smooth as possible, and then move on to the next finer grit.

You can use the pads wet, or dry, but I prefer to use them just very lightly dampened.

Just to relieve the monotony, I will usually concentrate on one section of the body at a time.

Maybe just the trunk lid area, or one side of the body to start, and go through the entire process on that area before moving on to the next section, but that's not necessary.

Just my preference.

Once smooth, I move on the next finest grit, which is just to remove the scratches from the previous pad, and begin to shine up the paint.

4.000, 6,000, 8,000, and finally 12,000.

Once you have progressed through all of the pads, you should end up with a very smooth, and relatively shiny surface.

Then I proceed with the liquid polishes.

 

I use Novus polishes, but generally prefer to skip the #3 "heavy scratch remover" unless it's absolutely necessary.

I will usually start with the #2 "fine scratch remover".

Polish everything, usually doing a couple of applications of the #2, on every panel.

This should net a very nice, smooth, shiny, and even finish.

But at this point, I give it at least one, maybe 2 more applications of Turtle Wax "scratch and swirl remover".

I've found that this product will really bring up the shine to a high luster.

 

Bear in mind that the thicker the coating of clear coat that you have to work with, the less chance that you'll have of polishing through the clear down to the color on the high points and body lines, but I still will be careful and use light pressure in these areas.

In most cases, these high points will generally be smoother to start than the rest of the surface any way, due to the fact that paint tends to draw away from them as the paint dries.

But this also means that the paint is thinner in those areas, so extra caution is required.

I might skip sanding those body creases entirely with the heavier grits and rely on a few light passes with the last 3 or so finest grits to ensure no burn through.

Use care in those areas with the liquid polishes as well, as they will also remove a small amount of paint.

 

Finally, when polishing is complete, give the body a cleaning in warm water and dish soap to help clean away any polishing material residue from the panel lines, etc.

I will often use a round tooth pick, sharpened to a fine chisel point to scrape away any polish stuck down in the deep panel recesses.

 

Finally, once the model is all but completely assembled and ready for the shelf, I give it a once over with Novus #1, "clean and shine".

This will help remove finger prints and smudges left during the assembly process, and also helps with static dust.

 

Oh, and by the way, a soft cotton cloth of some sort works very well for the liquid polishing processes.

A piece of old cotton t-shirt, or soft cotton flannel works great!

 

This process by no means takes years to perfect.

It's actually a pretty basic procedure.

Anyone, no matter your experience level, can master polishing pretty quickly.

And then sit back and enjoy the fact that you can achieve beautiful, nearly perfect paint jobs with a little elbow grease when other guys are still wasting their lives trying to achieve that "perfect" paint job right out of the can or airbrush through years of laborious trials and techniques, in the hopes that someday they'll get it right....... because they don't want to sweat a little today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Steve

 

Great info.

I'd like to build on the expert topic.

There are a lot of steps here. It is a simple technique. Just take each step, don't skip steps, and use caution.  Mistakes are made when you don't clean up a little after each step, or you take shortcuts. At least in my experience.

Go through all the steps, take your time, and be meticulous, and you shouldn't have issues.  That is where the practice comes in. Practice being thourough. 

[StevenGuthmiller]

4 minutes ago, ctruss53 said:

Great info.

I'd like to build on the expert topic.

There are a lot of steps here. It is a simple technique. Just take each step, don't skip steps, and use caution.  Mistakes are made when you don't clean up a little after each step, or you take shortcuts. At least in my experience.

Go through all the steps, take your time, and be meticulous, and you shouldn't have issues.  That is where the practice comes in. Practice being thourough. 

I agree.

Take your time and you'll do well.

 

You don't have to have years of body shop experience, or spend decades trying to perfect a perfectly shot paint job, (that's often not perfect anyway) to get fantastic results.

The willingness to put forth a little sweat equity is all that's required.

 

 

 

Steve

[shucky]

I do not have most of my photos at work, but this was DupliColor spray can paint and clear rubbed out with Scratch X only. Not sure why someone would BS another modeler when they were trying to help them, but whatever. Your mileage may vary.  

[atomicholiday]

So any who’s been following my plight for the past few months knows I’ve been having a heck of a time getting a decent finish, and when I do, I screw up wet sanding.  (See my thread on touching up burn through)  At one point I told my wife I was going to burn all my kits and tools.  I needed a win.

 I think I can say I got it finally.  Just finished rubbing this one out.  It ain’t perfect, but it’s a far cry better than I’ve been putting out lately.  The kits are safe for now.  Just don’t let me play with matches for a while.

Thanks to all for your advice.

[bobthehobbyguy]

One thing that might help would be to put more clear on before you polish . 

[StevenGuthmiller]

2 hours ago, atomicholiday said:

So any who’s been following my plight for the past few months knows I’ve been having a heck of a time getting a decent finish, and when I do, I screw up wet sanding.  (See my thread on touching up burn through)  At one point I told my wife I was going to burn all my kits and tools.  I needed a win.

 I think I can say I got it finally.  Just finished rubbing this one out.  It ain’t perfect, but it’s a far cry better than I’ve been putting out lately.  The kits are safe for now.  Just don’t let me play with matches for a while.

Thanks to all for your advice.

Looks fabulous!

I think you’re on the right track.

You’ll eventually get it down to a science! 😉

 

 

Steve

[StevenGuthmiller]

16 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

One thing that might help would be to put more clear on before you polish . 

Agreed.

 

 

 

Steve

[peteski]

19 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

One thing that might help would be to put more clear on before you polish . 

But not so many that the model looks like it is dipped in honey. That ruins the realism.

[bobthehobbyguy]

True but duplicolor Lacquer coats are thin and if you consistently are burning through to color then one needs a couple more coats. That way if you start seeing color then you know you are through that clear.

Edited June 9, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy

[Rattlecan Dan]

Rattlecan Dan says:" Listen to Steve "