Sub implosion: safety issues raised in 2018, whistleblower subsequently FIRED

[OldNYJim]

So, way back in my life, I worked for a couple of years in NDT (non destructive testing), for one of the world's leaders in the field.  I don't want to name the name of the company as my NDA probably still applies, but they're a big company based out of NJ.  We did a lot of work on stuff like wind turbine blades, for example, and some work for one of the Formula 1 teams, well known aviation firms etc.

What you do with NDT (for those not familiar), is attach sensors (acoustic sensors, in our case) to an object, and send a pulsewave of sound (actually, vibration) through an object - just like striking a bell with a gong.  You can tell from the resonance of the signal that comes back into a second sensor whether the object is structurally the same as it was on previous tests by comparing to previous samples taken.  Imagine an intact brass bell, versus one with a large crack or split - the 'ring' would be different between the two.  Same principal for testing steel, carbon fiber, stone - anything where you need to see if a solid object is still intact where physically inspecting it internally would likely involve ruining it.  (Disclaimer: this is VERY dumbed down version of what NDT entails, for those not familiar)

Something we would do in the motorsports sphere is test carbon fiber wishbones to check their continued integrity.  Testing would be performed on a brand new component, and at intervals of use to monitor how the part's composition was changing, and to help spot potentially problematic changes or failures.  These tests need to be performed at the same barometric pressure and temperature each time, and although you can spot PATTERNS between technically  'identical' parts, each part ideally needs to be serial numbered and have it's own set of data.

Compiling this data and taking useful readings from it requires an expert eye, some serious computing power...and TIME.  On-the-fly data recording and analysis is certainly possible, but I wouldn't count on it for anything where not spotting a failure in progress would be critical.  Especially with changeable pressure levels, temperatures etc.  Can it spot a critical issue as it's happening?  Sure, but by the time the data has been analyzed and an issue has been spotted it may well be too late anyway - that isn't the primary intention of this kind of NDT (at least, the technology I was involved in)

Bill undoubtedly knows more about the aviation applications of ultrasonic NDT, and their usefulness for an application like this, but as soon as I saw non destructive testing being mentioned as a 'live' gauge of this sub being safe to use whilst it's in operation that raised an eyebrow for me...

Follow up disclaimer: technology moves fast - and it's been 5 years since I last worked in this field....take my comments and opinions as just that - opinions and speculations based my non-expert knowledge of the subject

Edited June 26, 2023 by CabDriver

[bobthehobbyguy]

A couple of observations.

First there was a disturbing rumor that the carbon fiber used to build the sub was bought cheaply becuase it was no longer viable for aircraft usage.

Second you have to think the proper testing wasn't done because of trying to save money. Was that micky mouse mount done that way because it would cost more to do it right for something that's going to be operated in such a harsh environment.

Third if your solution to a credible whistle blower is to fire them then you aren't going to hire people that won't rock the boat.  And if you are trying to save money and you aren't going to get people that are best quality for the job. Although given the nature of the monitor mount I find it hard to believe that anyone could believe that was an acceptable way to do it.

Not the foundation for making sound decisions for such a harsh unforgiving environment. Unfortunately a guarantee that a disaster is going to happen. Not a question of if rather than when.

 

[1972coronet]

18 minutes ago, bobthehobbyguy said:

[You] have to think the proper testing wasn't done because of trying to save money. Was that micky mouse mount done that way because it would cost more to do it right for something that's going to be operated in such a harsh environment.

[If] your solution to a credible whistle blower is to fire them then you aren't going to hire people that won't rock the boat.  And if you are trying to save money and you aren't going to get people that are best quality for the job.

"Cheap & Fast" is the motto - the mantra - of an overwhelming majority of U.S. businesses. I've worked for "cheap and fast" idiots, most recently in 2020. 

"Cheap & Fast" has harboured in - via dipstick college kids, typically - anything from "leaf blower landscaping" on the lower rung, to Titans on the higher end. 

I quit my last job in January 2020 (just in time) due to my being sick and tired of abject incompetence from owners and management. 

[iamsuperdan]

1 hour ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

You're missing the point entirely. I stated it above.

 

No, I saw your point. 

Some millionaire goes rogue and cuts corners in his submarine company. Pays the price.

Some other guy that tried to warn everyone about the cut corners gets fired and ignored.

 

Doesn't change how I feel about the entire situation, which is what my comment was about.

 

 

[Ace-Garageguy]

8 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

No, I saw your point. 

Some millionaire goes rogue and cuts corners in his submarine company. Pays the price.

Some other guy that tried to warn everyone about the cut corners gets fired and ignored.

Doesn't change how I feel about the entire situation, which is what my comment was about.

Nope. Missed the point again.

The point is that we-know-better purple-hairs are reinventing the wheel just about everywhere, with little to no oversight from people who actually know what they're doing. The pathetic mess Ford made of the front door hinge pillars on the full size van is just one case, just one example of stuff I see every day.

Maybe you missed the post about the pillars. We have a contract to do bodywork for Lockheed's fleet vehicles. At 40,000 miles, the front door hinges on the full-size Ford vans are ripping out of the pillars for no reason other than poor design. Our fix is to re-skin the door pillars, sometimes replacing the door that's damaged from dragging on other bodywork, and install proper reinforcement inside he pillars, like the things should have come with in the first place. The problem is so pervasive, we've made up kits to do the mod. The rear door on the new Bronco has deficient hinge mountings as well, especially when the poor thing is burdened with some goofy, huge, insanely heavy "offroad" wheel/tire. And the Panhard bar is too weak for the job it does too. Etc. etc. etc.

But it's SOP today that when somebody speaks out and tells the truth, they're usually either shouted down, canceled, or fired.

It's rampant. It's everywhere. Not just in engineering circles, but in journalism, education, health and medicine, energy, and dare I say it...nah, better not.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy

[iamsuperdan]

 

 

 

I wish this thread would implode.

 

 

[imarriedawitch]

6 hours ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Well see, if you have rainbow-dyed hair, know nothing about real-world materials or fasteners or much of anything that you can't do with your phone, and come from a "diverse" background, you don't have to think about stuff like driving screws into a pressure hull that has to withstand roughly 6000 pounds per square inch. That's for old fogeys.

?

[Ace-Garageguy]

5 minutes ago, imarriedawitch said:

?...              'and come from a "diverse" background'

I guess you find that offensive? 

Well, here's proof positive that hiring based on anything other than MERIT and EXPERIENCE, especially in a technically demanding endeavour, is a recipe for disaster.

In case you missed it, check out the SCREWS driven into the pressure vessel, holding the monitor. That's all you need to see to know...assuming you know the first thing about composite structures and pressure vessels...that NOBODY involved had a clue.

[imarriedawitch]

17 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

I guess you find that offensive? 

Well, here's proof positive that hiring based on anything other than MERIT and EXPERIENCE, especially in a technically demanding endeavour, is a recipe for disaster.

In case you missed it, check out the SCREWS driven into the pressure vessel, holding the monitor. That's all you need to see to know...assuming you know the first thing about composite structures and pressure vessels...that NOBODY involved had a clue.

Your statement may be painted with a broad brush. Is there room in your world that those from diverse backgrounds may be the ones with merit and experience?

[Ace-Garageguy]

20 minutes ago, imarriedawitch said:

Your statement may be painted with a broad brush. Is there room in your world that those from diverse backgrounds may be the ones with merit and experience?

Yup, sure is. And just like so many, your response is automatically assuming and implying that I'm opposed to hiring people different from me. Standard strawman tactic.

But here's the thing...I don't give a good rat's backside WHAT color or gender anyone is, or what background anyone is from, AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS TO DO THE DAMM JOB...WHICH NONE OF THESE PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY DID.

Anyone allowing that sub to make a dive with people on board, with screws driven into the carbon fiber pressure hull, is an unqualified, ignorant fool.

The CEO stated he didn't want "50 year old white guys", even apparently if they were the best qualified.

So how'd that work out?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[imarriedawitch]

5 minutes ago, Ace-Garageguy said:

Yup, sure is. And just like so many, your response is automatically assuming that I'm opposed to hiring people different from me.

But here's the thing...I don't give a good rat's backside WHAT color or gender anyone is, or what background anyone is from, AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THE QUALIFICATIONS TO DO THE DAMM JOB...WHICH NONE OF THESE PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY DID.

Anyone allowing that sub to make a dive with people on board, with screws driven into the carbon fiber pressure hull, is an unqualified, ignorant fool.

The CEO stated he didn't want "50 year old white guys", even apparently if they were the best qualified.

So how'd that work out?

Not assuming anything, just wondering if that is the case then why the statement had to be included in your rant in the first place.

[Ace-Garageguy]

1 minute ago, imarriedawitch said:

Not assuming anything, just wondering if that is the case then why the statement had to be included in your rant in the first place.

Because today's ridiculous push to hire based on ethnic or gender quotas, or ANY characteristics that have NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ABILITY AND EXPERIENCE is going to lead to more and more engineering and product failures, injury, and death.

THAT is the point.

[Rodent]

So, while we constantly bash "endless rebleating", has anyone confirmed that photo is real, and if so, is that an actual structural part of the Titan submersible? Looks like a fake carbon fiber wall in someone's mom's basement or a bad photoshop to me.

I did a Google find for the photo, and all I found it on was antisocial non-media sites.

[Ace-Garageguy]

39 minutes ago, Rodent said:

So, while we constantly bash "endless rebleating", has anyone confirmed that photo is real, and if so, is that an actual structural part of the Titan submersible? Looks like a fake carbon fiber wall in someone's mom's basement or a bad photoshop to me.

I did a Google find for the photo, and all I found it on was antisocial non-media sites.

OK, you have a valid point. We have no certain attribution or source for the photo.

But we still have indisputable facts.

1) The sub failed catastrophically, in a manner consistent with a pressure-vessel implosion.

2) The CEO is on record saying he didn't want "50 year old white guys" (even though they might have been experienced and highly qualified submariners or engineers), and preferred young people from "diverse" backgrounds (but apparently zero engineering or submarine credentials), also saying "anyone can pilot the sub".

3) The court filing the whistle blower made in 2018, citing egregious safety issues, including problems with the carbon fiber layups, that went ignored by the CEO.

4) To the best of anyone's current knowledge via media, the structure was not periodically subjected to NDT (non-destructive testing) for pressure vessel integrity...which is the very minimum anyone sane with an understanding of filament-wound carbon-fiber structure failure modes would demand.

So the only rational conclusion is that, purple-haired diversity-hires or not, or screws driven into the pressure vessel or not, nobody in the loop was competent to manage the program or to operate the damm thing at 13,000 feet below the surface, at pressures of 6,000 PSI.

Anyone with a reasonable understanding of pressure-hulls, carbon-fiber filament winding, or the result of a hull failure at those pressures, would have refused to participate in the dive in the absence of verifiable and recent NDT data.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Ace-Garageguy
CLARITY

[ColonelKrypton]

24 minutes ago, Rodent said:

So, while we constantly bash "endless rebleating", has anyone confirmed that photo is real, and if so, is that an actual structural part of the Titan submersible? Looks like a fake carbon fiber wall in someone's mom's basement or a bad photoshop to me.

I did a Google find for the photo, and all I found it on was antisocial non-media sites.

Good question.  I did some Google search's looking for interior picture of the Titan submersible and found these:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65960217

https://people.com/oceangate-titan-submersible-everything-to-know-7551180

It may be that the image found earlier in this topic might have been a "copy-paste" from the video in the first link.  The video is supposed to be taken inside the Titan and it clearly shows at least two monitor brackets fixed to the walls - one on either side.  It is not clear from any picture or data that I have seen whether this inner wall is part of the outer pressure hull  or a secondary structure within the pressure. 

Without knowing you are only guessing. 

 

cheers, Graham

 

[Raoul Ross]

10 hours ago, iamsuperdan said:

What's a shark's favourite fast food?

Five Guys.

 

 

Oh Man... I groaned and lol'd at the same time

[Raoul Ross]

From the Register article I posted:

"Rush was piloting the Titan for what turned out to be its final fateful journey. He spoke to CBS News correspondent David Pogue on the US broadcaster's Unsung Science podcast late last year, and at the time expressed disdain for safety regulations.

"You know, at some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed. Don't get in your car. Don't do anything," Rush told Pogue. "At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules."

I mean, if there were no rules/laws/mandates, we'd all be falling *through* stairs, dying in elevators and being impaled by fancy knobs/levers/ et. al. that were the norm in 50s/60s cars. It's called "Statistics". They allow analysis of data that helps create laws/rules that keep everybody safe (well, at least as safe as stupidity allows)

Ignoring industry-standard, repeatable and peer-trialed testing and going rogue just invites disaster, no matter what you're building. Basically, he was a Huckster. So sad, seriously.

[slusher]

I think it’s a sad tragedy 5 people lost their lives but they knew there was a risk involved.  

[BlackSheep214]

Any scientists can tell you the deeper you go, the pressure gets stronger in the ocean. Simple rush job on safety issues since there were many red flags to begin with.

Dont be surprised there will be lawsuit against Oceangate for being criminally negligent. I’m well aware there was a waiver signed but if there’s a criminal act, all bets are off. But oh wait… they probably already claiming bankruptcy. How convenient….

They won’t find any bodies until a body part gets washed up on shore on the other side of the world.

I am 100% in agreement with leaving the Titanic wreck alone. It should never been exploited as a source of amusement ride in a submarine.

[bobthehobbyguy]

Duplicate post

Edited June 27, 2023 by bobthehobbyguy
Duplicate post

[bobthehobbyguy]

1 hour ago, Raoul Ross said:

From the Register article I posted:

"Rush was piloting the Titan for what turned out to be its final fateful journey. He spoke to CBS News correspondent David Pogue on the US broadcaster's Unsung Science podcast late last year, and at the time expressed disdain for safety regulations.

"You know, at some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed. Don't get in your car. Don't do anything," Rush told Pogue. "At some point, you're going to take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules."

I mean, if there were no rules/laws/mandates, we'd all be falling *through* stairs, dying in elevators and being impaled by fancy knobs/levers/ et. al. that were the norm in 50s/60s cars. It's called "Statistics". They allow analysis of data that helps create laws/rules that keep everybody safe (well, at least as safe as stupidity allows)

Ignoring industry-standard, repeatable and peer-trialed testing and going rogue just invites disaster, no matter what you're building. Basically, he was a Huckster. So sad, seriously.

Unfortunately even with rules there are some who chose to ignore them because they feel it's cheaper to pay the fines. 

It true there are always risks but the best choice is to try to eliminate all of the risks you can.  There is a huge difference in taking risks and being stupid about taking the risks that can be minimized using standard common sense practices.

[iamsuperdan]

52 minutes ago, BlackSheep214 said:

Any scientists can tell you the deeper you go, the pressure gets stronger in the ocean. Simple rush job on safety issues since there were many red flags to begin with.

Dont be surprised there will be lawsuit against Oceangate for being criminally negligent. I’m well aware there was a waiver signed but if there’s a criminal act, all bets are off. But oh wait… they probably already claiming bankruptcy. How convenient….

They won’t find any bodies until a body part gets washed up on shore on the other side of the world.

I am 100% in agreement with leaving the Titanic wreck alone. It should never been exploited as a source of amusement ride in a submarine.

Correct on all counts, except for one. 

 

They won't find any bodies. Period.

When the sub imploded, they were squashed. There will be nothing identifiable left to find.

[Lunajammer]

 

26 minutes ago, iamsuperdan said:

They won't find any bodies. Period. When the sub imploded, they were squashed.

I disagree. Squashed into what, nothing? At 66-percent water, the human body will be be compressed, distorted, etc. but there's no reason they should be in a million pieces, with the exception of implosion damage and any parts containing air, fat or non water based tissue. Not sure what kind of remnant they might be but there should some identifiable forms.

[Dave Ambrose]

47 minutes ago, Lunajammer said:

 

I disagree. Squashed into what, nothing? At 66-percent water, the human body will be be compressed, distorted, etc. but there's no reason they should be in a million pieces, with the exception of implosion damage and any parts containing air, fat or non water based tissue. Not sure what kind of remnant they might be but there should some identifiable forms.

My understanding from US Navy submariners is that in the event of a hull implosion, people basically get hammered into paste. You have a 4000 PSI shock wave. Nothing biological stands a chance. 

[stitchdup]

mythbusters did a show tha showed what happened when a pressurised diving suit failed at 300ft, the entire body, bones and all were squashed into the helmet almost instantly, at 3800ft they are already spread over a wide area and feeding the fishies and plant life