Save Pontiac

[lordairgtar]

http://www.savingpontiac.org/

[Guest Davkin]

Who are these "Entrepenuers" who will do this? Even the organizers of this thing are only referred to vaguely as "Executive types." Heck, an owner of a hot dog stand can call himself an executive. What did Pontiac have to offer anymore as a separate brand anyway? Also, I take issue with the idea that opening a "Pontiac" plant will create net jobs. It certainly will for Tennessee if that plant is opened but will it create more jobs overall? Market demand should determine wether new plants should be opened and jobs reinstated or new ones created, not the creation of a redundant car company using tax payer money. Building a bunch of cars that don't sell just to create jobs is no kind of solution for our economy.

Pontiac is gone, get over it.

David

[SSNJim]

The bigger problem from my point of view is that they don't have anything to sell except licensing. Why would GM provide and rebadge cars for what they consider to be a failed nameplate already spun off from itself? There may well be plenty of unused manufacturing capability around the country, but New Pontiac needs something to manufacture. Everything they made was owned by GM. All Pontiac designers did was slap Pontiac-looking trim pieces on cars designed by the head corporate office.

I've always liked Pontiac; in fact, I'd rather have seen Chevrolet offed. There's not a lot of difference, and Pontiac was always a direct internal competitor to Chevrolet.

[Lownslow]

save pontiac youre funny

[Harry P.]

So somebody puts up a website talking about how a group of anonymous "executive types" are going to save Pontiac by building Pontiacs in an idle GM assembly plant in Tennessee.

Let's see...

Problem 1. "Pontiac" the brand is owned by GM. Are they just going to give away their intellectual property to this group of "executive types?"

Problem 2. The idle plant in Tennessee is also owned by GM. See Problem 1.

Problem 3. These "executive types" have a donation page where you can send them money. To WHOM is that money going, and HOW will it be spent?

Gee, I was just about to click on the "$1,000" donation button when I suddenly remembered that there's this Nigerian prince that I already promised to send $50,000 to, and he told me he will send me a few million bucks in return.

[george 53]

When ya think about it, If G.M. couldn't save it, Who else could? She's just a fond memory now, like Plymouth.

[charlie8575]

Interesting arguments are made. Market forces aside, G.M. is now Government Motors whether any of us like it or not, and will be for the next few years.

If the political hacks want to play cars, I say find a reason to use every asset as much as possible and stop shedding divisions. These are ready-to-use plants and there are products that can or should be manufactured. As the website says, what more do you want to meet "shovel-ready" requirements?

I personally don't see too much hope in doing this, it didn't work for Olds, and believe me, I tried, but I think the arguments made here are very interesting. I don't know if they're completely water-tight or not, but they're interesting.

Charlie Larkin

[Art Anderson]

So somebody puts up a website talking about how a group of anonymous "executive types" are going to save Pontiac by building Pontiacs in an idle GM assembly plant in Tennessee.

Let's see...

Problem 1. "Pontiac" the brand is owned by GM. Are they just going to give away their intellectual property to this group of "executive types?"

Problem 2. The idle plant in Tennessee is also owned by GM. See Problem 1.

Problem 3. These "executive types" have a donation page where you can send them money. To WHOM is that money going, and HOW will it be spent?

Gee, I was just about to click on the "$1,000" donation button when I suddenly remembered that there's this Nigerian prince that I already promised to send $50,000 to, and he told me he will send me a few million bucks in return.

[Chiefpontiac]

Hey guys:

I am new here but I am the originator of Savingpontiac.org. I thought all your comments were great and frankly if this was a normal situation there would be no chance. What we have is an abnormal situation.

General Motors and the plant capacity is not owned by normal shareholders; it is owned by every Taxpayer in the Nation. Taxpayers currently own and vote 61% of the GM stock. At Savingpontiac.org we cannot predict who might run Pontiac, although if we were included that would be great.

We have only proposed that someone other than GM could make a profit on this brand which is the size of BMW North America. We have also proposed that this Company would be run for the benefit of the Taxpayers. Not AIG or Goldman Sachs, or their ilk.

It would be a gigantic project but the people to do this are available, they all were laid off. If a focused management team were allowed to operate like a real business and not part of GM, it could really work. Honda has a 25% gross margin on sales. GM for two years had a negative gross margin. It is possible.

If you think that GM should have been able to save it. Remember that these guys collapsed a Company with a Market Capitalization as high as $56 Billion. Then they took $80 Billion from you and I and have now announced they will never repay it. A new team that is profit and brand focused could make this work. Since we, The taxpayers, own it why is it OK just to not do this any more?

As to scam, we are self funded and in Atlanta. My name is Ben and my direct email is ben@savingpontiac.org. We have not made a concerted effort to raise funds, as yet, because of the credibility issue. I thank you for the thoughts and interest and if you can join and sign our petition that would be great! It is a low risk process that can only help us save this great Brand and likely 20,000 to 40,000 jobs NOW!!

Ben

Edited September 24, 2009 by Chiefpontiac

[Harry P.]

We have not made a concerted effort to raise funds, as yet, because of the credibility issue.

Ben

And how, exactly, do you and the other "executive types" in your group intend to resolve that issue?

[Harry P.]

The website is amateurish, there are no actual facts and figures mentioned, only vague generalities about how "the taxpayers" own Pontiac and GM, there is no mention as to how these "executive types" intend to gain control of Pontiac (both the brand and the actual stamping dies, etc.) and the "white paper" is incredibly poorly written. If that's your attempt to get people to send you money, all I can say is good luck with that!

[Jantrix]

[Jordan White]

The website is amateurish, there are no actual facts and figures mentioned, only vague generalities about how "the taxpayers" own Pontiac and GM, there is no mention as to how these "executive types" intend to gain control of Pontiac (both the brand and the actual stamping dies, etc.) and the "white paper" is incredibly poorly written. If that's your attempt to get people to send you money, all I can say is good luck with that!

[Chuck Most]

The website is amateurish, there are no actual facts and figures mentioned, only vague generalities about how "the taxpayers" own Pontiac and GM, there is no mention as to how these "executive types" intend to gain control of Pontiac (both the brand and the actual stamping dies, etc.) and the "white paper" is incredibly poorly written. If that's your attempt to get people to send you money, all I can say is good luck with that!

Anybody remember the "Return of AMC" April Fool in Hot Rod a few years back?

And, GM itself is saving Pontiac, using the "Jack Kevorkian's Guide to a Better Life" self-help series! Think about it... no longer will the great Pontiac name be sullied on substandard turd-boxes like the G5, G7, GWhiz, and whatever the hey-all other alpha-numerically named models in the Pontiac lineup!

[Jon Cole]

I don't know if I would call this a "Scam", as much as I think it's a folly of wishful thinking. Desiring for Pontiac to come back is not a legitimate reason to persue a means to that end.

[Harry P.]

I don't know if I would call this a "Scam", as much as I think it's a folly of wishful thinking...

From their website:

Our Solution: We have modeled a solution that would have the following elements:

Contribute the Pontiac brand and a dormant plant like the Spring Hill,

Tennessee plant to a new entrepreneurial, passionate management

team and the future employees of Pontiac.

Fund the new Company with $3 Billion in preferential term loans from

the Federal Government. (Only 6% of the $50B given to GM; only 3% of

total Automobile bailout funds or less than 1% of the unspent bank

bailout funds)

Company does an IPO within 5 years to payback loans and

Government (Taxpayers receive 5% to 10% of the IPO proceeds and

the loans are repaid.)

The estimated Enterprise Value at the end of 5 years exceeds $9

Billion.

So their plan is this: Give them the Pontiac brand and give them an assembly plant, give them a $3 billion taxpayer-funded loan, and in 5 years they will have become so successful that they will be worth $9 billion and will pay back all the loans.

That's way beyond "wishful thinking"... that's delusional thinking.

[Eshaver]

Sorry but this topic was already covered by Chuck Most and Art Anderson very very well ! My hat is now off to both of you gentlemen ! Ed Shaver

[Joe Handley]

Aren't GM's new line of larger cross overs being sold by Chevy, GMC, Buick, and I think Saturn being made at the Spring Hill plant now?

[Jon Cole]

...I think Saturn being made at the Spring Hill plant now?

Not anymore! The Saturn brand just left port for the last time!

[Joe Handley]

Not anymore! The Saturn brand just left port for the last time!

Ah, wasn't sure if Saturn was building anything here in the US anymore.

[Trans Am Erik]

I'm not going to get into the politics of this pie in the sky plan. From the standpoint of the cars, if GM REALLY wanted to save the Pontiac name they would relegate them to niche cars. Bring back the Trans Am and the GTO, but do it right this time! Give the cars the correct retro styling, colors, decals, and BIG BLOCK power! Before you scoff at that statement take a look at the Mustang (and Shelby Mustang), Challenger, and Camaro. These cars look the way they should, come in their famous colors, and have the same massive hoursepower as their classic counterparts. As far as what every American car maker is putting out I can not stand and here's why. The big mistake that has been made is in competing with Japanese cars is the platforms and styling mimic Japanese cars. The basic American car is a compact four cylinder four door sedan, WHY??!!!!! American roads and parking lots can accomodate large cars. We do have the technology to have a V-8 and save gas, ever hear of selective displacement and E-85. It dos sadded me to se Pontiac go, I own a '77 Trans Am (a REAL Pontiac) but I won't miss the G series cars! Ok, I'm done, that's just my opinion.

[SSNJim]

Before you scoff at that statement take a look at the Mustang (and Shelby Mustang), Challenger, and Camaro. These cars look the way they should, come in their famous colors, and have the same massive hoursepower as their classic counterparts. As far as what every American car maker is putting out I can not stand and here's why. The big mistake that has been made is in competing with Japanese cars is the platforms and styling mimic Japanese cars. The basic American car is a compact four cylinder four door sedan, WHY??!!!!! American roads and parking lots can accomodate large cars.

But the manufacturers of the Mustang, Challenger, and Camaro aren't dead. Yet. Chrysler did save the cars it considered to be worth saving (Prowler, PT Cruiser) before shutting down Plymouth, but they didn't save the Barracuda. Why? Because they don't make a Barracuda, just like Pontiac doesn't make a Firebird/Trans Am. Even if there was a Firebird made in the last 7 years, and it was still being made as a niche car by GM, Chevrolet wouldn't tolerate it as a competitor to its Camaro. Chevrolet has always been very protective of its car lines - why do you think every attempt by Pontiac to build a successful sports car (read Corvette competitor) has been quashed?

I will agree with trying to mimic the styling of Japanese cars. Some of them are way overdone and tacky looking. The reason the 4 cylinder 4 door sedan is the basic American car is because that's what sells. Ford still builds the traditional American sedan Crown Victorias (in Canada, BTW) but the public wouldn't buy them. Now they're fleet sales only. The platforms are shared for cost savings. That's why you may find a Mazda, Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Jaguar, and Volvo all using the same platform. That's why Mercury/Nissan and VW/Chrysler share platforms.

[Harry P.]

I don't understand why GM is killing Pontiac either. I can see dropping the Saturn line... Saturn has never made a profit for GM. I'm surprised they kept it going as long as they did. But Pontiac is a much more iconic GM brand than Saturn ever was.

I would have kept the Pontiac name alive, maybe sold at Chevy dealers (as in "see your Chevy/Pontiac dealer today!"). It works for Ford (Lincoln/Mercury dealers) and for Chrysler (Chrysler/Jeep dealers). I would have kept Pontiac as "specialty" line, maybe just a few models like the Solstice, a new Firebird based on the Camaro, and a Bonnevillle based on the Chevy Impala.

I also don't understand GM's reason for dropping the Pontiac name: they say Pontiac wasn't selling enough cars and drawing buyers away from Chevy. Wasn't selling enough cars? Isn't selling even a few cars better than not selling any? And what's the difference if Pontiac took some sales away from Chevy? In the end all the money goes back to the same pot. What's the difference whether GM sold a "Chevy" or a "Pontiac" that day? A GM car sold is a GM car sold, no matter what it was called. If Chevy competes with Pontiac for buyers, who cares? They're both GM cars!

[Chuck Most]

I don't understand why GM is killing Pontiac either. I can see dropping the Saturn line... Saturn has never made a profit for GM. I'm surprised they kept it going as long as they did. But Pontiac is a much more iconic GM brand than Saturn ever was.

I would have kept the Pontiac name alive, maybe sold at Chevy dealers (as in "see your Chevy/Pontiac dealer today!"). It works for Ford (Lincoln/Mercury dealers) and for Chrysler (Chrysler/Jeep dealers). I would have kept Pontiac as "specialty" line, maybe just a few models like the Solstice, a new Firebird based on the Camaro, and a Bonnevillle based on the Chevy Impala.

I also don't understand GM's reason for dropping the Pontiac name: they say Pontiac wasn't selling enough cars and drawing buyers away from Chevy. Wasn't selling enough cars? Isn't selling even a few cars better than not selling any? And what's the difference if Pontiac took some sales away from Chevy? In the end all the money goes back to the same pot. What's the difference whether GM sold a "Chevy" or a "Pontiac" that day? A GM car sold is a GM car sold, no matter what it was called. If Chevy competes with Pontiac for buyers, who cares? They're both GM cars!

I don't see why they don't just can the entire lineup (Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, etc.), and just call them all GMs. GM Silverado 1500. GM LaCrosse. GM Malibu, and so on. Maybe keep Cadillac as the premium line. Years ago, the Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, and Olds names actually meant something. Not so much these days. Even the newer brands, like Toyota's Scion devision, are having a few second thoughts hurled at them of late.

I'm all for leaving the Mercury nameplate over at Ford alone, though.

[Chuck Most]

I would have kept the Pontiac name alive, maybe sold at Chevy dealers (as in "see your Chevy/Pontiac dealer today!"). It works for Ford (Lincoln/Mercury dealers) and for Chrysler (Chrysler/Jeep dealers). I would have kept Pontiac as "specialty" line, maybe just a few models like the Solstice, a new Firebird based on the Camaro, and a Bonnevillle based on the Chevy Impala.

Actuallly, Harry, according to the parts manager at my local Pontiac dealer, Pontiac, Buick, and GMC were rolled into one division a few years ago. I'd heard GM was thinking of it, but didn't know it actually happened until he told me this yesterday. That's why you see the ads in the Sunday paper with the 'great lease deals' on a Sierra, G6, and LaCrosse all on one page, and the ads for Chevy and Cadillac are separate, because Chevy and Caddy are still their own separate divisions. They'd planned to combine Olds and Buick into one division, but it never happened.

So, it appears that like the Plymouth arm of the Chrylser/Plymouth division, and the Eagle side of Jeep/Eagle, we'll soon go from Pontiac-Buick-GMC to Buick-GMC. Evidently, merging into one division with other brands does not guarantee immortality!

Maybe GM will see the folly in their ways and bring back the Oakland line...

Now, what ya wanna wager that there'll be no more new Buicks by the end of the next decade?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Chuck Most