I wonder if we do the right thing in our praise...

[Zoom Zoom]

When I see a model with something that I don't like, whatever it may be, from subject matter through a lack of craftsmanship, I just keep my trap shut

[bigmikevee]

Hey gang,

Here is my take on this topic. I am new, excited and happy to be here, working out a ton of new ideas and techniques and would love to post something....but, why post something that I know is not quite there? I could add the comment that it is "my first posted build" or something like that, and I am sure some people would say something positive, but why bother? I want to display the best model I am capable of building, not my trial-and-error stuff. Then, when I am giving the best I've got, I would welcome any and all criticism, pointing out a better way to do something or pointing out something I should have done but didn't, well, the list goes on. But I feel the approach I am taking is what will help me become a better modeler, I like the idea of people commenting on what they see, but it should be something worth seeing.

I used to (and still occasionally do) teach music, I always tell my students that can't wait to get out there and play, to trust their instincts, when the song is ready, you'll know it. Until then, it's not. Here's two pennies.

Mike

[charlie8575]

In school, we see the same thing, too.

There are no winners or losers. Everyone has to feel good and everyone gets a trophy. Tra-la-la-la...everyone's happy and their precious little psyches aren't hurt.

Oh give me a break.

I would never, ever condone rudeness, confrontational wording or speaking down to someone who put some degree of effort into doing something. There's never any reason to be mean. But, if posted, as has been said, you should be ready to hear the good, bad and the ugly.

If someone does display their first model, use some tact. Many of these people do actually seem to want to know what to do better.

Sometimes, people want ideas or feedback on new things they've tried. Give it to them.

I'm on the verge of completing the first model I've actually completely finished in a little over twenty years. This is also my first attempt at foiling. I know it's not a great job, but I'm still on the learning curve and I'm very happy with how well it's come out otherwise.

I think a lot of it comes down to the tone and intent of the responder. That's as important as what's said and who it's being said too.

Charlie Larkin

[Jon Cole]

"Everyone has to feel good and everyone gets a trophy. Tra-la-la-la...everyone's happy"

LoL Charlie! Maybe that should be the name for the "Heaps of praise for ME!" section?

[Jeff Sauber]

When I see a model with something that I don't like, whatever it may be, from subject matter through a lack of craftsmanship, I just keep my trap shut

Ahh, so that's why you never post comments/compliments on anyone else's models but your own...

[just kidding]......

You kinda set yourself up for that one though......[drum roll/cymbal crash...]

[Danno]

Great thread. Almost all the posts are right on. Everyone who has posted seems to be pretty tuned in to the problem, and everybody has a good, healthy approach to it.

Harry's right about his point ... this is the freakin' internet. What you put up on a board (this one or any other) is out there for the whole world to see and there's nowhere to hide, so you've got to be prepared for adverse reaction as well as hopeful for heaps of praise.

Seems to me, the healthiest approach is that of posting a build without being motivated by seeking reaction. Just put it up; let everybody see it. Be ready to accept positive comments for that which deserve positive comments, but likewise be ready and willing to accept either no response or helpful suggestiones or even constructive criticism if efforts fall a little short of the norm.

And, the other side of 'the healthiest approach' (offering comments on less than spectacular builds) has been pointed out here ... honesty and sincerity delivered with careful filtering to hopefully ensure constructive observations will be taken in a positive light.

Rude or sarcastic comments will virtually guarantee exploding threads. There's just no place for incendiary insults.

The thing about communication is that there are two components: the way information is transmitted/delivered and the way information is received/perceived. Good communication can break down at either end.

Bottom line, the method I strive to achieve is to point out something good or say nothing at all to the extent possible.

Often there's too much going on (Show Your Stuff thread) to comment on every single model being posted, so I am silent. That's not to say there is nothing good to be said, but sensory overload and limited time sometimes preclude commentary on every one of the excellent builds we see here.

And, occasionally I fall into the human being category and offer one of those painfully honest but sincere observations when it appears that the cheerleaders are leading someone astray. But since that almost always triggers a war and makes our moderators work for their opulent remunerations, I try to avoid that like sticking myself in the eye with a fireplace poker.

[Danno]

The flip side of that is, when the "attacked" party responds emotionally...

I wish each one would ask themselves "Am I angry because this was a rude comment, or am I mad because the flaw that was mentioned really IS there, and I'm upset that somebody noticed it" before clicking the Add Reply button...

That is also an excellent and VERY TRUE observation, Mark. We can usually control how we say things (although not always and the impersonal internet is the worst environment for that), but we have zero control over how what we said is received or perceived. The other truth of good communication is that even when we do the best we can do, some of the responsibility is up to the recipient.

[Guest Johnny]

The flip side of that is, when the "attacked" party responds emotionally...

I wish each one would ask themselves "Am I angry because this was a rude comment, or am I mad because the flaw that was mentioned really IS there, and I'm upset that somebody noticed it" before clicking the Add Reply button...

Yep! If you post on a public form you better have some what of a thick skin. Because there is always someone waiting to slam you hard for any reason.

If one posts with the knowledge tat there will be occasionaly some harsh criticism it would make it a lot easier to take. But you have to expect it.

Also you have to be open to others opinions and ideas. Who knows, it just might make you better builder in the end.

But lashing out back at a couple of knocks of ones work does not make things beter. Just take it with a grain f salt or just blow them off completely and move on!

If you are happy with your work just post it and do not comment further no matter what anyone else says! As it should not bother you.

I welcome all critique of my work and expect to see some.

If you cannot handle it don't post your stuff or display it for he public and you will never have an issue with it!

[philo426]

Yes! Kind of a rude wake-up call when others point out that what you thought was an awesome model turns out to be not so awesome after all!Kind of humbling!

[highway]

My opinion is that if you post your work here, any comments, positive and negative, are part of the deal. It's up to each individual as to what they want to say (or not say)... but once you show the world what you did, the world has the right to comment. If you can't take criticism, don't post pictures of your work.

As far as "critical" comments... there's a right way and a wrong way to criticize. Be smart about it.

Harry, in my opinion, is 100% right, and especially that part that I highlighted and resized. I feel that has been some of the biggest issues where a war starts. I have been following this since Terry first posted this topic last night, and have read though all my email notifications on it, and have seen a few others state the helpful and harmful ways to give criticism. I, myself, have grown as a modeler due to good constructive criticism. I joined my local model club, the Ohio Valley Scale Modelers, which unfortunatly disbanded around 5 years ago, around 1990 when I was about 15 years old. I had went to one of their shows, which was when I joined, thinking my models were great and simply amamzing. BOY, WAS I EVER WRONG!! When I sat my model on the table and seen the great work sitting around it, I was so embarrassed I almost ran away never to build again! Thankfully, instead, I chose to stay and look around and also join OVSM that day. At my first meeting, I asked the senior (not age wise) members what I could do to improve, and received many helpful critical remarks. I learned about seams, orange peel, etc. and learned how to take care of such things. Yes, the face to face comments are easier to understand the helpful tone than here on the internet, I have even been guilty of trying to help and taken the wrong way.

Anyway, I guess my bottom line is the "You know, I see some orange peel in your paint, you may want to polish it before going on, (in the case of a WIP thread) I would suggest maybe going over it with a 1200 grit polishing cloth. " goes much farther than "MAN, THAT PAINT JOB STINKS!!".

[sjordan2]

There are other ways of trying to help without sounding critical (although it's hard to hide implied criticism).

On another forum, there is a thread on a finished build that was receiving lots of kudos from the members; as far as I could see, very little work was put into the build and I'm not even sure it was painted. There was a humongous seam that ran across the top of the front fender and into the middle of the headlight surrounds, and the whole thing was less than impressive.

I simply asked a question without posing a criticism:

"Was the kit molded that way with the seam, or is it two body parts put together?" – not an idle question, since I've been interested in building this kit. The builder replied that it was a one-piece body and he had forgotten to address that in his prep work. Maybe he'll think about things like that on his next build and be prouder of his work. (I think this is the Socratic method, where people learn by answering questions for themselves.)

Further, when I see metallic paint with godawful metallic flake, I sometimes ask what the paint is so I don't wast my money on it.

Anyway, on the subject at hand, I think anyone who posts a build on this forum implicitly is saying, "What do you think?" and not "See what I did, Mommy?"

But, like Bob, when I see things I don't like I generally move on without comment.

Edited July 23, 2010 by sjordan2

[coopdad]

I always find it interesting to hear people's views on this issue. I've observed some things over the years:

1) If a post ends with "comments and criticism welcome" it probably means the poster will not handle anything but glowing praise with an open mind.

2) Pre-excuses ("sorry for the bad pictures" or "it looks like there's a big 'ol nappy fingerprint in the hood, but that's just a reflection") mean that the poster won't take anything other than praise well.

3) A post containing anything to the effect of "I'm happy with how it turned out" means the poster will not take anything but praise very well.

4) Any reference to having problems building the kit means the poster probably won't take anything but atta-boys very well

5) If the phrase "this is the first model where I attempted ______ " appears in the post, anything but congratulations on the perfect execution of that technique is unwelcome.

Funny Mark but very true. That is why I personally NEVER give criticism AFTER the model is (or appears to be) done. What is the point? All finished models have flaws. Pointing out that there is a fingerprint in the door doesn't ensure that it doesn't happen in the next model. And if the builder left it there, they were not willing to do what it took to fix it. They "settled"... they left things they knew were wrong choosing to say heck with it.

When I finish a model and post it, I am both proud and let down. I know all the areas in which I "settled", and the areas that have obvious flaws. Having people point them out or tell me other problems that I have not seen will not help me improve. However, during the WIP stage I fully welcome the criticism help. In fact, the current build I had someone make a constructive comment about something that I simply overlooked... it saved me hours of work (and frustration) fixing it back then as opposed to fixing it now.

There is also the issue: what might be a flaw to me is not always going to be a flaw to another. I hate seams showing, especially across the top of the brake master cylinder or through the transmission. If I left it, it would be a huge flaw in my work. To others, no problem.

John

Edited July 23, 2010 by coopdad

[highway]

I always find it interesting to hear people's views on this issue. I've observed some things over the years:

1) If a post ends with "comments and criticism welcome" it probably means the poster will not handle anything but glowing praise with an open mind.

2) Pre-excuses ("sorry for the bad pictures" or "it looks like there's a big 'ol nappy fingerprint in the hood, but that's just a reflection") mean that the poster won't take anything other than praise well.

3) A post containing anything to the effect of "I'm happy with how it turned out" means the poster will not take anything but praise very well.

4) Any reference to having problems building the kit means the poster probably won't take anything but atta-boys very well

5) If the phrase "this is the first model where I attempted ______ " appears in the post, anything but congratulations on the perfect execution of that technique is unwelcome.

I'm being (slightly) sarcastic, of course, but the truth is most people don't take critique or "helpful" suggestions as anything less than a full-blown attack. Certainly, if it's offered in a less-than-nice way criticism is a bad thing, but I personally don't know why it's not OK to point out things that could make the next build better.

Ever notice how sometimes you miss an obvious flaw in something until you take a digital photo...and then it's RIGHT THERE? I view having hundreds of people see my stuff the same way. Help for the next one...or maybe there's a quick fix I can do to the one I thought I was finished with to make it better.

I think it all comes down to being honest with yourself...on some level we all have a perfectionist complex or we wouldn't be drawn to this hobby at all, and would be happy with a close-enough diecast on the shelf. Denying that seems silly to me. Ultimately, having the perspective of multiple perfectionist can help you get better, and who doesn't want that?

Mark, I know, because you even said, you are being slightly sarcastic with the items you listed, but I must say that is not always the case. In some cases, you are right, but I have used almost all of those in my current WIP thread of this build,

and I'm open to any suggestions and criticism I receive, because, even if I'm past the point where an idea may not be possible on this build because it is beyond the "point of no return", I can use that idea to improve future builds.

First, along with the "comments and criticism", I have also used "I need help and opinions!", especially when I was looking for a new paint color because the intended color, I found, was no longer available at my local auto parts store. I received many helpful ideas until I found this paint at Lowe's, of all places, and found it was even better than the original planned color. I also asked for opinions for the frame color, which I have also received much help with, I'm only having a problem now figuring which idea to use!

Second, I have used the "Sorry for the bad pics." line not to hide flaws, but because a few pics have been bad! Of course, that was before I learned how to use the macro feature on my camera!

Third, I have not really used the "I'm happy with the way it turned out." much, but there have been a few cases in this build where I may have not thought things through as much as I should have and have received some helpful ideas that will be used for future builds. The help came just too late for me to use on this particluar build without having to buy another kit to donate to this build. One case in particular was the front bumper, which even I admit I did not plan very well. I wanted the big Aussie style roo bar, but also wanted the stock trucks four driving in the stock bumper. Not thinking, I Zap-A-Gapped the heck out of it, using Zap-A-Gap not only to attach the roo bar to the bumper, but to build the bumpers shape up as well, but still retaining the four driving lights as well. A fine idea was given to me for making the roo bar move separate of the bumper, but it was passed the "No turning back" point on this build!

The only time I have used example four is with this build:

It is not a major problem with the kit, but I found the hood (at least on mine) has a tight fit even without paint, and I closed the hood thinking the paint was fully cured, when it wasn't quite ready yet. I have even posted I know about the goof up, and when I resume this project, I have every intention of fixing it.

Last, back to the Ford tractor trailer, "This is the first time..." has been used quite a bit in that thread, because it's the truth! This is the first big rig I have ever tried lengthening the frame, and it is also the first large custom sleeper I have built. It is also the first time I ever used Bondo automotive putty on a model, and the first time using colorshifting paint on a build. It will also end up being the first time I've ever used Alclad to rechrome parts and it will also be my first time ever even using my airbrush when I get to that point!

I also have to agree with your statement about having a perfectionist complex, because, especially with the Ford big rig, I have been my worst critic!! I took two weeks of putting Bondo on the roof of the sleeper, sanding, reapplying Bondo, sanding, and repeating before I got the shape of the roof to my liking!

[Danno]

I know all the areas in which I "settled", and the areas that have obvious flaws.

Ahhh, yet another side to the same coin! Funny thing happened when I joined a club and started attending ... and displaying my builds at club meetings. Even though I knew EVERY flaw of each of my builds, and maybe thought my builds were not 'worthy,' I discovered that many times others did not notice the "glaring errors" that humbled me. I learned I was my own worst critic and sometimes too harsh on my own builds. It made me lighten up and approach building a little more realistically.

[Jeff Johnston]

I welcome criticism on my builds. I want to build better...I am competitive person, more with myself than with anyone else. I built a Mach 1 not too long ago and I had forgotten to put the Cobra Jet decals on the shaker scoop. . Someone told me it'd look better with he cobra jet decals...DOH..they were right. I am glad he said it.

I built a 49 Merc and the hose I used for the heater hose was too big. I never noticed it, but when someone pointed it out they were right. It was...

Unfortunately more often than not the builder gets their pants in a wad if you give any kind of constructive criticism..so unless I know the person (know them face to face, had a conversation, they know me personally, etc). I just don;t say anything. Sometimes I know the person and I think they would be upset...so again I stay quiet.

So if y'all have any constructive suggestions or comments on my model...on the record... I honestly welcome it.

If you can't take the advice you'll never build a better model. Same as it goes in live...

[Danno]

It is not a major problem with the kit, but I found the hood (at least on mine) has a tight fit even without paint, and I closed the hood thinking the paint was fully cured, when it wasn't quite ready yet. I have even posted I know about the goof up, and when I resume this project, I have every intention of fixing it.

Hey, Highway! Here's a little unsolicited help, or a suggestion, whatever. Maybe you are already onto this idea, but I've encountered the same problem ... or its cousin, the sprue mounting lug that gets trimmed off after painting.

It looks like just the edge of your hood is showing bare plastic as a result of the paint being scraped off by a tight fit; hopefully, the chippage hasn't extended to the top surfaces of the hood and fender. If only the edges are damaged, you can make what I've found to be an easy fix. Sharpie marker.

I bought a multi-color Sharpie Fine Point Permanent Marker set. All kinds of colors, most of which are commonly used in automotive modeling. I often use the orange and red markers for coloring taillights, marker lights, and turn signals. I frequently use the black, silver, and red for touch up of painted parts, chrome parts, or taillights, respectively. But I've also found that many of the markers are close enough to body color paints to pass for touchups of flaws, errors, scratches, scrapes or accidents such as yours.

You might try the orange Sharpie marker on the edge of your hood. I'd lightly sand the hood edges to increase the fit/gap and reduce the chance of the damage repeating. Then run the orange Sharpie marker around the edge of the hood to cover the bare plastic. Even if it is not a precise color match, if you're lucky it will be close enough to not be noticeable when the hood is in place. Remember to not compare the surface color to the edge color; once the hood is in the 'closed' position the edges won't be visible and the marker coloring will appear natural ... much more so than the bright white bare plastic.

Another little note about the orange Sharpie. I've found it to be excellent for touching up Chevy Engine Orange painted parts. I paint them all on the sprue, then clip them off, smooth the remaining burr, and touch it up with the orange Sharpie. Voila! You can't tell.

Hope this helps, Highway. Just another little tool for your arsenal. As with most good ideas, it took longer to describe it than it takes to try it! Hope it works for you.

[Harry P.]

...makes our moderators work for their opulent remunerations...

[highway]

Hey, Highway! Here's a little unsolicited help, or a suggestion, whatever. Maybe you are already onto this idea, but I've encountered the same problem ... or its cousin, the sprue mounting lug that gets trimmed off after painting.

It looks like just the edge of your hood is showing bare plastic as a result of the paint being scraped off by a tight fit; hopefully, the chippage hasn't extended to the top surfaces of the hood and fender. If only the edges are damaged, you can make what I've found to be an easy fix. Sharpie marker.

Another little note about the orange Sharpie. I've found it to be excellent for touching up Chevy Engine Orange painted parts. I paint them all on the sprue, then clip them off, smooth the remaining burr, and touch it up with the orange Sharpie. Voila! You can't tell.

Hope this helps, Highway. Just another little tool for your arsenal. As with most good ideas, it took longer to describe it than it takes to try it! Hope it works for you.

Thanks, Danno, not only did you help me out, but that is a perfect example of a nice, constructive post as well, even though I did edit the reply a bit! Not only did it give me a simple solution to the problem, much easier than my original plan of decanting the original spray paint then retouching it, but it also was something that would have probably taken a million years to figure the fix could be so easy!! I guess I see a trip to the Sharpie aisle in my near future! Thanks again, Dan, that will help a lot!

[Danno]

Thanks, Danno, not only did you help me out, but that is a perfect example of a nice, constructive post as well, even though I did edit the reply a bit! Not only did it give me a simple solution to the problem, much easier than my original plan of decanting the original spray paint then retouching it, but it also was something that would have probably taken a million years to figure the fix could be so easy!! I guess I see a trip to the Sharpie aisle in my near future! Thanks again, Dan, that will help a lot!

My pleasure, Matt. Just a little something I picked up that worked for me; glad to share it with you. That's what it's all about! Good luck.

[whale392]

I believe that there is some very good advice here, and some peoples' observations are dead-on and well spoken. We always learned that 'Respect is earned, not given'. As I do not fancy myself as a highly skilled builder, I usually will pass a subject by. If it is something I do know about or believe that I can help positively, I will. As stated, some people will never listen objectively or feign interest in your critisism and keep right on with their builds. That is a percieved respect thing for me. If I respect you as a builder and fellow man, I will respond in kind. I have learned that there are those here who have built themselves an emotional shell, and whenever someone threatens that (even with the best of intent) they immediately lash out as self-defense. I now just pass on by them and leave no comment. I may check in to see what they are doing/have done, but that is as far as I will take it.

[glenn]

I think everyone wants to improve their skills and being told what could be done better or pointing out flaws etc is just a necessary step in becoming better.Maybe it all depends on who is posting their model for all to see,a beginner may not know what can be done better as he is just building straight out of the box so he posts up his finished model and gets heaped with praise and then continues on thinking he is doing good whereas he should really be getting criticism of his work.If someone has being doing it for 20yrs then perhaps that's as good as their skills are likely to be and will react badly to criticism,unless he asks for constructive criticism maybe it shouldn't be offered.

Sometimes not saying something about someones work is as bad as criticising it,you can't get better if no one tells you what's going wrong.It just takes a bit of thought about how to write down what you wish to say so as not to discourage anyone or have it viewed as a personal insult.

[Modelmartin]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed in this thread. I don't say much about finished builds except if I really like it a lot. I am kind of jaded so I end up not commenting much. I will comment on occasion when someone asks a technical question about something in the General or Hints and Tips section. That is a lot more appropriate than in the Under Glass section. I have a lot of experience building models which means I have run across more wrong ways to do things than most!!

[Fuel Coupe]

Really great subject. I tend to only post on models I like and if I don't like them I generally don't say anything. its tough to know who can take the criticism and who cant.

My builds don't usually get a whole lot of attention here and to me that's fine. I would much rather you not say anything you don't mean. Matt LeBlanc is as straight a shooter as they came and before I enter a model in a show I let him look it over and he usually pick my models apart and I'm a better modeler for it.

He's told me that you can pile a bunch of details and aftermarket stuff on a model but if the execution is poor then you've wasted your time. Truer words haven't been spoken...

[Terror]

In a nut shell it sounds to me like people are generally affraid to comment..??

[Darren B]

I totally love criticism in my modeling, if im not doing something right, or can approve on some aspect of my modeling then heck yeah, i wan't to know, but its true there or some people that may not take to kindly to it.