A "Rivet Counter" speaks up!

[MrObsessive]

There was a recent thread about why some of us are very much into scale accuracy, and why we care. I didn’t say a whole lot in that thread, but recently it got me to thinking about what stirs up emotions about a particular car’s appearance and why that’s important.

I have to say that one of the things that appeals to me when it comes to a certain makes appearance in scale, is some childhood or young adult memory that it invokes. It may be a certain song on the radio, or a particular room in a house you were in when you saw that car. It could have been someone you were dating when a car caught your attention.

You remember the sweep of the fenders, the sleekness of the roof, or perhaps the arch of the tailfins that stick in your memory. Now a certain model manufacturer comes along and makes an announcement about that model you’ve been longing for many moons now. You wait with anticipation as you see test shots of that car, but the photos don’t reveal everything just yet as they're not very close shots of the car. You see more pics and you notice a flaw or two-----but you keep hoping upon hope that they’ll fix it before it hits the shelves.

The model is released, you fire up the keyboard and order online, or you make a mad dash down to the local hobby shop and get that model in a flash! The model is either delivered, or you get home with it and then reality hits------------the model has those flaws that you feared, and even worse……the model has a body shape that’s not quite like you remembered. Close but no cigar.

You’re irritated, mad, disappointed, and now you figure out how to “correct” these flaws without ruining the model, or you simply put it back in the box as your frustration is too much to even tackle such a thing. Not to mention your skills might not be up to par to attempt such.

The point I’m making is this…………there are more than a few of us that like things to be pretty much as we saw them either in magazines as a kid, or sitting right in our parents (or our own) driveway when they were owned. When a model manufacturer fails to live up to a much wanted and hyped kit, the dream is blown as to what we’d like that model to be------------a piece of a nice memory the first time we saw that car ease on down the road.

Now if that makes me a “rivet counter” then I stand proud to be one, as I’m the type of guy that likes to see models as accurate as humanly possible. With CAD, 3D scaling, Internet, a plethora of car shows, clubs, magazines, etc-------there’s no reason why a major model company can’t get the details right. I understand the pitfalls of molding certain details and the like, but glaring mistakes and then writing it off as no big deal to me is a HUGE turnoff. There are kits sitting in my stash right now that I haven’t touched due to flaws that to me stick out like a boil on your forehead. With prices of kits now approaching $30 (!), I’m only asking that the kit makers take a little more time in sweating the details, and not get a blasé attitude when a huge (or not so huge) error is pointed out by the modeling public.

OK………….rant over! Comments welcome but let’s be nice Guys and Gals!

Edited September 25, 2012 by MrObsessive

[Ace-Garageguy]

....what you said........X2.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Ace-Garageguy

[Dr. Cranky]

If this is a rant, Bill, bring it on. I love these kinds of threads. I don't consider myself a rivet counter at all, and I am not one for much accuracy (if you don't believe me, look at some of my engines.), but I like perfection and attention to detail in others' models. I think it's a matter of taste and personal satisfaction for each builder. I admire the quality in others.

[TooOld]

Bill , First I want to say that the quote in my signature line was not meant to offend anyone . I understand how you can want a model as accurate as possible . When I added that to my signature line I was thinking of those who will comment on anothers build because it has a '70 grille on a '69 model .

That's what I consider a rivet counter , not someone who just wants an accurately molded '71 cuda ( me included ! ) .

[charlie8575]

I agree with you completely, Bill.

Ransom E. Olds, in his initial memorandum of understanding with his early backers, was directed to build "one motor carriage in as nearly a perfect manner as possible."

115 years later, we're still human and we will still make errors, but, to ignore errors that might be easily be corrected in early prototyping and design and chalk it to you what I can only describe as an attitude of "yeah, whatever," is unacceptable, especially at the prices kits command now is completely unacceptable. I expect that attitude from the sixth grade special ed kids I'm working with right now, not grown men with college degrees or post-secondary technical training.

To design and execute one model kit of a motor carriage in as nearly a perfect manner as possible. WE, the modeling community, the financial backbone of the industry, only ask for that.

Charlie Larkin

[MrObsessive]

Bob I take no offense in your sig......actually I find it quite funny!

I've learned the advice given to me by my Mom years ago..........."If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all!" That's not to say that constructive criticism is not warranted-----when asked for. It can be done in a way though that is not mean spirited, and not to cause hurt as that person may be new, or just not skilled enough to fix a flaw correctly.

I also don't chide those that don't care about scale accuracy one way or another. My comments are directed more at the American kit makers, and how they've put out kits in the last number of years that have been substandard body shape wise. I could name a number of them, but I don't want to step on any toes as I've seen some very well done builtups on this board.

[eizzle]

I agree completely, the new lindburg and revell challenger SRT-8 super bee

Kits were both like this for me, just awful work on the kit makers part, the body shape was all wrong, at least to my

Eye it was, I didn't finish either one...

[southpier]

it's just a hobby ...

[moparmagiclives]

  On 9/26/2012 at 12:30 AM, southpier said:

it's just a hobby ...

X2,

But to add a little to that. On the "scale" discussion thread, someone had brought up the fact that no matter how off we all think these thing are, there is no mistaking the finished model as a repsesentation of a cuda, or charger, or mustang or what ever it is.

I look at some of the kits that were available to my father and uncles when they were younger, an man I have to say that what I can get is top shelf compared to the globs of plastic they had.

I know some of those kits are still available and havent been updated, but the new stuff that's coming out....pretty darn good I think.

To bad It's getting to the point where all I see when I look at a new kit is a brand new rope...

[Harry P.]

  On 9/25/2012 at 10:58 PM, MrObsessive said:

With CAD, 3D scaling, Internet, a plethora of car shows, clubs, magazines, etc-------there’s no reason why a major model company can’t get the details right.

Ditto, ditto, amen and hallelujah!

[1930fordpickup]

Bill you are right on the mark.

As far as older kits go , what do we do ?

[Harry P.]

  On 9/26/2012 at 1:53 AM, 1930fordpickup said:

As far as older kits go , what do we do ?

Accept them for what they are. Build them, enjoy them, and realize that they are not state-of-the-art.

[Fat Brian]

  On 9/26/2012 at 1:53 AM, 1930fordpickup said:

As far as older kits go , what do we do ?

Or stop buying them so the companies get the message that we want new toolings of ancient kits.

[LoneWolf15]

  On 9/26/2012 at 1:54 AM, Harry P. said:

Accept them for what they are. Build them, enjoy them, and realize that they are not state-of-the-art.

To add to this ....... By combining the parts from the new kits with the older kits , they can become state of the art models ! Take it a step farther , start adding aftermarket to the combination and the sky's the limit !

[moparmagiclives]

  On 9/26/2012 at 1:54 AM, Harry P. said:

Accept them for what they are. Build them, enjoy them, and realize that they are not state-of-the-art.

Why can't people do that with the new kits?

Have you ever gotten the evil eye, after someone spends all night making a great meal for you, and you douce it with ketchup?

How many of us, will take that "perfect kit" once its finaly available, and leave it in its absolute greatness ?

[charlie8575]

  On 9/26/2012 at 12:30 AM, southpier said:

it's just a hobby ...

That may be true, but it costs the same, and sometimes less to make a better product, or make it right the first time.

Consider...

If you do the job well, more people will buy the product, lowering per unit cost and increasing profitability.

Doing the engineering correctly will result in a better product with fewer problems and less re-engineering, cutting design and production costs because you don't need to keep fixing things.

It is just a hobby, but we have a right to expect good value for the money and time we spend on it.

Charlie Larkin

[Craig Irwin]

Back in the late 80's when I got back into modeling the first 2 kits I picked up were Monograms 69 Camaro and 56 Chevy, because I had owned 1:1's of both cars and had fond memories of them. Both of those kits are very out of proportion, the Camaro is so bad it looks like a Deal's Wheels kit. I never finished them, and I supose it's just luck I ever bought another kit.

Add me to the rivet counter list

[Ron Hamilton]

You know where I stand, Bill.

[Wagoneer81]

  On 9/26/2012 at 12:30 AM, southpier said:

it's just a hobby ...

I think if that were truly the case, as it refers to the subject of this thread, we'd all be happy with Palmer quality kits...

Unless I'm going completely custom or freelance, I want the kit I build to look as close to the real thing as posssible. That, IMO is not to much to ask from a 'scale replica'...

[blunc]

If it cost the same to make to make an accurate kit as it does to make an inaccurate kit, I vote for accurate.

[moparmagiclives]

What are some examples of said kits that do not measure up (no pun intended)

[Chuck Kourouklis]

Bill, ya had me all the way up to the part about skills possibly being not up to par - if your skills aren't up to par to correct a kit, there ain't much hope for anybody else on that kit, either.

But what's really nice about your topic is that it allows me to address this issue semi-politely for once. Because there's an inevitable gulf between TooOld's type of rivet-counter - someone who claims the wiper motor on a national-caliber finished model doesn't have the correct number of speeds (still so risible after all these years) - and someone who simply observes that this

does not entirely equal this:

While the deviations may be more obvious to some than to others, this latter example doesn't sink to anything like the extremes of the former. And that's why "rivet-counter" - assuming you can even find it spelled correctly - is so off-base in these cases.

Yeah, it's just a hobby. But it's a hobby predicated on a miniature resembling its full-size counterpart as closely as possible, and there's no getting around that. 3D scanning and rapid prototyping are out there, and we're already starting to see manufacturers using that technology gaining an advantage in accuracy over those who don't.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Chuck Kourouklis

[Danno]

  On 9/26/2012 at 6:13 AM, blunc said:

If it cost the same to make to make an accurate kit as it does to make an inaccurate kit, I vote for accurate.

X2!

[peekay]

"It's just a hobby"?

As Bill said, his comments are directed more at the manufacturers and for them it's NOT a hobby. It's their bread and butter and their reputations are at stake.

I sometimes wonder why Japanese kits tend to be superior. I have family ties to Japan and I've come to the conclusion that the Japanese simply put more care into their work. You can see and feel that when you open a Japanese kit.

Unfortunately I'm a fan of American and European cars.

[tubbs]

  On 9/26/2012 at 2:47 AM, charlie8575 said:

That may be true, but it costs the same, and sometimes less to make a better product, or make it right the first time.

Consider...

If you do the job well, more people will buy the product, lowering per unit cost and increasing profitability.

Doing the engineering correctly will result in a better product with fewer problems and less re-engineering, cutting design and production costs because you don't need to keep fixing things.

It is just a hobby, but we have a right to expect good value for the money and time we spend on it.

Charlie Larkin

AMEN Charlie!! i am not a rivit counter, but i want accuracy. with what we pay for kits, i feel that they should be a good representation of the real thing. for example, the 1st attempt of the AAR cuda.......

as far as building goes, you can take your kits to the moon if you want, just give me an accurate place to start.