slight rant about differences

[Ramfins59]

a military modeler isn't going to put huge chrome wheels and a flame paint job on a Jeep, a car modeler might...

I always thought it would be cool to build a Candy Apple Red tank with Chromed bogey wheels and enter it an IPMS Show..... Ya think it would honk off some of those guys..??

[Art Anderson]

Well I went to an IPMS chapter model show today. While it was a nice show about 150 entries. What irked me was llooking at some of the aircraft models. it seems like you can get loads more aftermarket parts for aircraft than you ever can for car models. Even the tiny 1/72 scale you can get photoetched grills, intakes, engine parts, Etc. and highly detailed resin cocpits etc. So where are the same for the car modelers? no where to be found

Rant off

Tim

I think mostly because the market, as defined by the number of aircraft and armor modelers who do buy and use PE details, is much larger than it is in model cars. I know that sounds almost discriminating, but if there aren't enough model car builders actually buying PE details, why would anybody make more such details?

As for the resin cockpit kits for existing plastic model aircraft--well, the sheer small size of model aircraft cockpits can make molding the parts for those as exacting as modelers want them is often pretty difficult, not to mention expensive, if done in styrene plastic. To a great extent, model car builders like you and me are far more likely to be either satisfied with kit interiors as they come in the kit, and they are large enough in scale and size to superdetail fairly easily. As for a lot of the PE details such as screening and the like, with aircraft and armor, a lot of those screens can be made from bulk stock, as they often were/are on real aircraft and vehicles, as opposed to being brand and/or subject specific. After all, those are more like industrial machinery than is say, a car.

Art

[slusher]

The biggest difference between military and car modelers, IMO, is in military modeling there is no emphasis on "creativity." The emphasis is on correctness, scale fidelity, accurate detail, etc... in other words, how much does the model look like the real thing? In military modeling, almost always the modeler is not trying to be "creative, " he's trying to build an accurate replica of a specific 1/1 subject, so aftermarket detail parts that add to the detail level of the kit are a very big part of that. The selection of aftermarket stuff available for military kits is amazing.

Model car building has a far wider range of "acceptable" styles. While a military modeler isn't going to put huge chrome wheels and a flame paint job on a Jeep, a car modeler might... because for a lot of car modelers, faithfulness to a particular 1/1 subject isn't their goal. Their goal is to be "creative" and build a model that doesn't necessarily look like any real car, or is even feasible in full scale, but is an expression of their own tastes. Sure, there are car modelers that do strive for accuracy and detail, but there are many that don't. Car modeling is seen as a less "serious" form of modeling than military modeling.

Military and car modelers are apples and oranges.

l agree....

[Tom Geiger]

Sure, there are car modelers that do strive for accuracy and detail, but there are many that don't. Car modeling is seen as a less "serious" form of modeling than military modeling.

Military and car modelers are apples and oranges.

True, from the perspective of the military modeler, we're just kids playing with toys!

But the truth is that there are probably as many amateur military modelers as car modelers. I used to belong to a club for all kinds of models. There were a bunch of guys who displayed glue bomb aircraft with glue on the bodies and windows. There were a few who would show up with several new completions each month that looked like little kids built them.

Still they were arrogant and ignored the car guys. One time they asked me to remove my cars from the display table so a new arrival could put his glue bomb planes out. I packed them up and I don't think anyone even noticed I left. I never went back.

[Rob McKee]

I enjoy building models of every genre. Cars, planes, military, ships, and n-scale rail. Yes, I know I am addicted to plastic formed into miniature versions of the 1:1 real thing. I can agree most people that build military aircraft and tanks tend to strive for accuracy. With n-scale (1:160) rail models there are some that are referred to as

rivet counters.

I have had people point out the inaccuracies with some of the locomotives or box cars I run where I could only see the offending part with a magnifying glass. On another occasion a neighbor of mine who builds military models (tanks, etc.) exclusively said to me in a condescending way he built aircraft models when he was

a little kid. Meaning, aircraft are for little kids only.

My point is, I build models of all genres to a level of accuracy I am happy with or to the best of my abilities.If there is an after market detail kit available for the subject I am building I may purchase it if I am looking to add more detail or trying to just taking my model to a higher level. Frequently I have used items found around the house or dollar store trips to incorporate into a model for added detail.

I build for myself. Am I offended when someone points out a deficiency with a model I have built. Absolutely not.

[Eshaver]

I'm looking at another topic locked .................................. sad too.

[Bigjeff]

I enjoy building models of every genre. Cars, planes, military, ships, and n-scale rail. Yes, I know I am addicted to plastic formed into miniature versions of the 1:1 real thing. I can agree most people that build military aircraft and tanks tend to strive for accuracy. With n-scale (1:160) rail models there are some that are referred to as

rivet counters.

I have had people point out the inaccuracies with some of the locomotives or box cars I run where I could only see the offending part with a magnifying glass. On another occasion a neighbor of mine who builds military models (tanks, etc.) exclusively said to me in a condescending way he built aircraft models when he was

a little kid. Meaning, aircraft are for little kids only.

My point is, I build models of all genres to a level of accuracy I am happy with or to the best of my abilities.If there is an after market detail kit available for the subject I am building I may purchase it if I am looking to add more detail or trying to just taking my model to a higher level. Frequently I have used items found around the house or dollar store trips to incorporate into a model for added detail.

I build for myself. Am I offended when someone points out a deficiency with a model I have built. Absolutely not.

was it this guy?

lol

Seriously, i got a few planes in my stash and they scare me! They look harder than tanks imo...

[Agent G]

THEY ARE HARDER!

I stick to tanks and cars, planes and ships scare me.

G

[Pete J.]

I really don't understand what some of the members are complaining about. There is a plethora of aftermarket stuff for cars! Heck there are long established companies that handle nothing but car stuff. Scale Motorsport, Model Car garage, RB Motion, Pegasus, Ross Gibson, Jimmy Flintstone just to mention a few. I just did a search of Hobby Link Japan the at the first cut there were over 3,000 parts and detail sets listed with just under 1,000 in 1:24 scale. Granted this is a Japanese market, which features non-US cars for the most part, but this is just one source. There are hundreds of suppliers like Indycals and others who make many decal sets for common and obscure liveries. Model Car Garage offers just about everything you can think of in the way of details and detail sets for 'Merican iron. Heck, even Squadron has over 18 pages of Accessories just for cars and bikes. SQUADRON for pities sake! Want an engine swap, Ross Gibson makes enough drag engines to choke a horse.

I think what complaint is, is that people want a $35 Ross Gibson engine of $1.25 and that just isn't going to happen The detail is out there, you just have to look for it. Lets face it, the day of the LHS having walls of aftermarket is long gone. You can't walk into Hobby Lobby and pick up a photo etched fret for a 70 road runner any more. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't out there. The LHS just couldn't afford to invest capital in stocking the same amount of stuff as the internet stores. This is also true for the military modeler. I can only think of two local hobby shops that even stock aftermarket for models of any kind, in southern California. That would be Brookstone and Pegasus and this is in all of SoCal. The internet is now the source for this stuff.

Harry, I think that your comment on car modeler as less "serious" builders than military is one of the complaints that drove a lot of car builders out of IPMS over the last decades. That kind of condescending attitude from the military side of the house is countered by car builders by pointing a finger at the "Rivet counters" on the other side. This is a feud of Hatfield and McCoy proportions. Of late I have seen IPMS making an effort to overcome that and it has and will be an ongoing struggle. Those of us who are detail fanatics are working on it. Heck, we even have an car guy as the president of IPMS and I was part of a team that recently rewrote the auto categories to more accurately reflect the auto modeling world. There are a lot of us who enjoy the detail oriented end of this hobby and love to stand around discussing the differences in bolt patterns on a Ford Flathead. As the modeling group ages, I think you will see more of us. After all detail, is something that takes time and effort. Something that takes time to develop.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Pete J.

[Harry P.]

Harry, I think that your comment on car modeler as less "serious" builders than military is one of the complaints that drove a lot of car builders out of IPMS over the last decades. That kind of condescending attitude from the military side of the house is countered by car builders by pointing a finger at the "Rivet counters" on the other side. This is a feud of Hatfield and McCoy proportions. Of late I have seen IPMS making an effort to overcome that and it has and will be an ongoing struggle.

I think that condescending attitude stems from the fact that in the world of model cars, there are just way more kids and/or "unserious" modelers building donks or wild customs that would be totally impractical in the real world, people who continue to ignore obvious mistakes like the "magic floating alternator," etc. than there are "unserious" armor modelers. And I think that many (most?) serious/hardcore armor guys see their way of modeling as being harder, more demanding, more challenging, and requiring more skill than the guys who put giant wheels and sparkly paint on a car (no offense to those who do... I'm making a point). I mean, comparatively speaking it is a lot easier to throw together a bunch of parts box pieces that may or may not make sense in a real vehicle and say you are being "creative" vs. the discipline it takes to do the research and take the care to build a perfectly accurate model of a specific Panzer from a specific theater or a specific battle, etc. Not that all car modelers build that way, but enough so that it has become the stereotype. See what I mean? It's no wonder that a lot of armor builders look down on model car building as a kid's game.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them, just trying to explain where their condescending attitude comes from... and when you think about it logically, it's actually pretty easy to see.

[Scale-Master]

I can only think of two local hobby shops that even stock aftermarket for models of any kind, in southern California. That would be Brookstone and Pegasus and this is in all of SoCal. The internet is now the source for this stuff.

I believe Pete meant to write Brookhurst Hobbies, not Brookstone. Yet another fun store though...

[Casey]

True, from the perspective of the military modeler, we're just kids playing with toys!

I disagree. Any builder who is serious, passionate, and sincere, regardless of what they build, understands what building means to them personally, and how it also applies to another builder who might be building a Sherman tank, a vinyl fantasy figure, a robot, etc. To dismiss another model building genre different from one's own comfort zone speaks more about that person than the genre s/he dismisses or puts down.

[Pete J.]

I think that condescending attitude stems from the fact that in the world of model cars, there are just way more kids and/or "unserious" modelers building donks or wild customs that would be totally impractical in the real world, people who continue to ignore obvious mistakes like the "magic floating alternator," etc. than there are "unserious" armor modelers. And I think that many (most?) serious/hardcore armor guys see their way of modeling as being harder, more demanding, more challenging, and requiring more skill than the guys who put giant wheels and sparkly paint on a car (no offense to those who do... I'm making a point). I mean, comparatively speaking it is a lot easier to throw together a bunch of parts box pieces that may or may not make sense in a real vehicle and say you are being "creative" vs. the discipline it takes to do the research and take the care to build a perfectly accurate model of a specific Panzer from a specific theater or a specific battle, etc. Not that all car modelers build that way, but enough so that it has become the stereotype. See what I mean? It's no wonder that a lot of armor builders look down on model car building as a kid's game.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with them, just trying to explain where their condescending attitude comes from... and when you think about it logically, it's actually pretty easy to see.

I do understand what you are saying and with our discussion it is unlikely that any of those "serious" military modelers are likely to be swayed. I would point out that the discipline it takes to do the research and take the care to build a perfectly accurate model of a specific Panzer from a specific theater or a specific battle, etc is no different that what it takes to build a perfectly accurate 935 from a specific team, season and race. There are many auto builders who do that with no less skill, discipline and attention to detail as the tread heads. Many of them populate this web site.

What I am saying is that the air of superiority displayed by military models in general is unjustified and undefendable. Auto modelers as a group take their craft as seriously as do military modelers. There are some dissimilarities but there are far more similarities as to what it takes to build a quality model in any genera. Arrogance and condescension by any group is unjustifiable as is any prejudice. Heck, I have seen common mistakes such as tanks with treads on backwards, aircraft with brake lines on the nose gear, and ships flying the wrong colors, as often as I have seen the floating alternator or other common mistakes on autos. Military modeling is not exempt from poor modeling and modelers. Just because someone picks up an F 16 instead of a Can Am car does not make them any more or less serious about the craft.

What military modelers can't seem to get their heads around is several of the "Art" classes in automotive modeling. Those classes would be custom, low rider and hotrod. Even in these classes there are modification and detail skills need to build a great model every bit as difficult as anything a military modeler would face. Just look as the skills of Augie Hiscano. Arrogant military modeler have no serious justification to look down on anyone. You just can't make a legitimate case for calling one type of modeling superior in skill, dedication and execution to another type of modeling. Anyone with that attitude needs to get over it.

[Agent G]

I disagree. Any builder who is serious, passionate, and sincere, regardless of what they build, understands what building means to them personally, and how it also applies to another builder who might be building a Sherman tank, a vinyl fantasy figure, a robot, etc. To dismiss another model building genre different from one's own comfort zone speaks more about that person than the genre s/he dismisses or puts down.

Hear Hear!

G

[Pete J.]

I believe Pete meant to write Brookhurst Hobbies, not Brookstone. Yet another fun store though...

Yup! Brain fart. I get to claim on of those a day. Anything else and I need to go see the Doc.

[johnbuzzed]

I do build military models. Most times, military models tend to be historically accurate replicas of specific subjects. Most military builders seek as much accurate detail as possible in order to obtain the desired end product, hence the need and availability of so much aftermarket stuff. Car modelers tend to be more creative, much as many of our full-size/scale/prototypical/what-have-you subjects can be- cars need to be esthetically pleasing in order to attract the average consumer. And how many non-running customs and show cars or impractical, trailer queen pro-street cars have we seen? It's OK, as long as it looks good. I'm NOT saying that model car builders ignore historical accuracy, but it doesn't seem to have the same importance among us.

And one can compare apples to oranges, just as one can compare: mountain bikes to cruisers, poodles to pit bulls, sail boats to Donzis, hot air balloons to biplanes, fuel dragsters to F1 cars...

[Bigjeff]

it's all different skills....a paint job on a car requires much more work! If i mess up on a tank...I just put fake mud over the blemish ...

[johnbuzzed]

it's all different skills....a paint job on a car requires much more work! If i mess up on a tank...I just put fake mud over the blemish ...

The skills and techniques are the same- the subjects are different. Off-road 4x4 beaters can get dirty, muddy, rusty; the Blue Angels Hornets are nice and shiny.

[Shardik]

Wow! This has gotten to be a very interesting and passionate discussion, but I do believe we've gotten a little off topic. So, here's my fork in the road:

I'm looking at the project on my bench ('39 Chevy pro street), and what I see is resin bucket seats, turned aluminum rod ends from RB motion (for the 4 link rear end), Ross Gibson pro stock Rat Motor, MCG photo etched electric fan, complete MSD ignition system from SMBC, pro street rear tires with AR wheels also from SMBC, radiator mesh material from Detail Master etc...

The stuff is out there, but it comes to us in a form consistent with the real industry. I can go to Verlinden and get a complete detail set for a PzKpfw IV Ausf D early production DAK because there is only one basic configuration (barring unit specific adaptations) for this vehicle. I can't buy a complete detail set for a Pro street '39 Chevy because there are just too many variables: Lenco or Muncie, LS1 or Hemi, four link or ladder bars, blown, injected or carbureted? But I can get all the items I need piecemeal, just like the 1:1 builders do it.

I guess what I'm saying is that, IMO, this is really a non-issue.

Move along, folks; nothing to see here.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Shardik

[Pete J.]

I do build military models. Most times, military models tend to be historically accurate replicas of specific subjects. Most military builders seek as much accurate detail as possible in order to obtain the desired end product, hence the need and availability of so much aftermarket stuff. Car modelers tend to be more creative, much as many of our full-size/scale/prototypical/what-have-you subjects can be- cars need to be esthetically pleasing in order to attract the average consumer. And how many non-running customs and show cars or impractical, trailer queen pro-street cars have we seen? It's OK, as long as it looks good. I'm NOT saying that model car builders ignore historical accuracy, but it doesn't seem to have the same importance among us.

And one can compare apples to oranges, just as one can compare: mountain bikes to cruisers, poodles to pit bulls, sail boats to Donzis, hot air balloons to biplanes, fuel dragsters to F1 cars...

I see your point but I think it is too much of a blanket statement. A quick review of the various topics here and there is a ton of builders who comment on accuracy. It may not be the same as military builders, but it can be as intense. How often have you heard," I changed xyz because it had the wrong bolt pattern on the head." or "The AMT kit is a more accurate body shape that the Revell". I remember a real -----storm over someone putting valve covers on the wrong sides of an engine. Yes, it has to look right, but there are a ton of people out there, if this forum is representative, who believe it has to be right also. I would bet that the proportions are within the standard deviation if you compare military and auto modelers. Every guy who pick up a tank isn't going to make it dead nuts accurate. They want shelf models as much as car guys. Just make it look presentable.

[Tom Geiger]

I disagree. Any builder who is serious, passionate, and sincere, regardless of what they build, understands what building means to them personally, and how it also applies to another builder who might be building a Sherman tank, a vinyl fantasy figure, a robot, etc. To dismiss another model building genre different from one's own comfort zone speaks more about that person than the genre s/he dismisses or puts down.

Since you mentioned it... I have been astounded by the lack of respect for automotive subject builders at IPMS events that embrace the fantasy builders, the Star Trek and movie monster figure guys.

[niteowl7710]

Since you mentioned it... I have been astounded by the lack of respect for automotive subject builders at IPMS events that embrace the fantasy builders, the Star Trek and movie monster figure guys.

Well considering the attitude and behavior of a small, but highly vocal and visible group of car guys, combined with well deserved reputation of cheapness, and accepting any kit no matter how wrong and inaccurate.. why would a group for better or worse is an assembly of anal retentive detail freaks with deep pockets and an overly serious outlook on building want to associate with the mouth breather car people.

[martinfan5]

Well considering the attitude and behavior of a small, but highly vocal and visible group of car guys, combined with well deserved reputation of cheapness, and accepting any kit no matter how wrong and inaccurate.. why would a group for better or worse is an assembly of anal retentive detail freaks with deep pockets and an overly serious outlook on building want to associate with the mouth breather car people.

Edited October 15, 2013 by martinfan5

[Rob Hall]

Well considering the attitude and behavior of a small, but highly vocal and visible group of car guys, combined with well deserved reputation of cheapness, and accepting any kit no matter how wrong and inaccurate.. why would a group for better or worse is an assembly of anal retentive detail freaks with deep pockets and an overly serious outlook on building want to associate with the mouth breather car people.

Sad but true...there are a lot of unpleasant people on the model car side of things..

[Daddyfink]

Don't blame IPMS for the lack of car builders or for them to be rather dismissive about car modelers. It is the lack of car builders in IPMS that has led to us being second rate citizens, until we get off our butts in gear and do something about it.

The San Diego IPMS has a yearly show and the car portion was always a bit dismal and not very well judged, until the San Diego Model Car Club joined in and now runs that part of the contest.

Yes, the club had to join IPMS and only the officers, and maybe one or two others, are members, but it was us speaking up and joining that changed some attitudes in our local IPMS. And it goes back to the cheapness of the car builders. Most do not want to pay dues for anything.

And I know plenty of deep pocket, anal retentive detail freaks who are car builders. So that goes both ways as well!