Engines for the ZZR Spy car modelled by amt

[lordairgtar]

I am refurbing a gluebomb ZZR (the only way I could afford one) The kit engines are barely detailed blobs that vaguely resemble Buick Engines. Very few pics of the car are online. Articles I have read allude to the engines being 430s. Car was built by Barris in around 1965 0r 66. It was featured in the film "Out Of Sight", which came out in 1966. Are there any kits that might have better detailed examples of those engines? Thanks. I thought they were 300 cid engines at first.

[grayghost]

http://www.showrods.com/showrod_pages/zzr.html

[blunc]

the Barris site list this for the engines "Dual 340 cubic inch 1966 Buick engines".

something from a wiki:

340

The 340 cu in (5.6 L) 340 was a stroked to 3.85 in (98 mm)) version of the 300. It had a two- or four-barrel carburetor, the two-barrel with compression of 9 to 1 comp. ratio rated at 220 hp (160 kW) at 4000 rpm and 340 lb·ft (460 N·m) at 2400 rpm, and the four barrel with 10.25 to 1 comp ratio, rated at 260 hp (190 kW) @ 4000 rpm and 365 lb·ft (495 N·m) @ 2800 rpm. It replaced the four-barrel 300 for 1966. It was produced only in 1966 and 1967, with the new Buick 350 taking its place after that.

Edited June 4, 2014 by blunc

[unclescott58]

Buick's 430 was introduced in 1967. So it's very doubtful that would have been the engine used. And Buick never offered a "440" as stated on the link to model, above. My guess is that Mike Cassidy hit the nail on the head.

Scott

Edited June 4, 2014 by unclescott58

[ChrisBcritter]

How about the engine in the AMT '66 Skylark Modified Stocker?

[blunc]

the 66 Riviera engine can probly be used, just tell anyone that asks what it is that it's a 340...they can't really dispute a small hunk of plastic.

as long as it's not a nailhead type block no one will be able to tell the difference...except maybe Bill Geary.

Edited June 4, 2014 by blunc

[Danno]

Mike Cassidy's always right.

[blunc]

Mike Cassidy's always right.

and so is Bill Geary.

[Dan Helferich]

The '66 Rivi has a nailhead. The '69 has a second generation Buick V-8 and it's not bad except for the hole in the block

[lordairgtar]

I meant to type 340. Thanks everyone. I can deal with holes in the block with plastic and putty. It seems that the 66 Riv engine is a nail head, but the ZZR engines seem to have the same look. Because the detail on the ZZR engines are so muddy, it's hard to nail it down. Plus the exhaust ports seem equidistant from each other on the ZZR where as the 66 Riv engine (425 cid) are not.

ZZR 0 0 0 0, 66 Riv 0 0 0 0. The 69 engine is obviously too new. I'm of the opinion that the engines are related to the same engine that was in my 64 LeSabre, which had a 300. The wiki sited earlier says that the 340 was a stroked version of the 300. Any kit ever have the 215, 300, or 340 small block?

[ChrisBcritter]

Closest thing to the 215 might be the engine in the Jo-Han '61 and '62 Olds F-85 kits; besides the heads and valve covers weren't they pretty similar? AMT's '61 and '62 Buick Special wagons didn't have an engine. And like I said, check that reissued '66 Skylark Modified Stocker for the 340.

Edit: Found photos of the '66 on this site - it's a nailhead, probably supposed to be a 401. Never mind...

http://fredsresinworkshop.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12290

Edited June 5, 2014 by ChrisBcritter

[blunc]

More conflicting info found on the ZZR, another blog site lists 425 Buick engines bored out to 440.

the photos show a buick block with front mounted distributor and canted valve covers, definitely not a nailhead.

My opinion, you should be able to use any buick block with those features and call it what ever size you wish.

The main visual difference I have spotted between the older Buick "small block" is the exhaust port spacing, you might be able to put some ford 427 heads on a buick block to get the spacing you need if you can't find the correct block/heads.

The publicity photos I've found for the ZZR seem to show engines that are not nailhead.

Maybe someone can come up with better photos, anyone here got a line to George?

Edited June 5, 2014 by blunc

[unclescott58]

Mike Cassidy's always right.

Hate to disagree with you Danno. And I think this is first time I ever have? But, Buick's 340 is totally different engine from Buick's 425 nailhead. The nailhead has a look all of it's own. Hard to mistake from any other engine, even in 1/25th scale. Buick's 300 - 340 - 350, and later 430 and 455 are more conventional looking engines. So in this case Danno, I don't agree with you, Mike Cassidy is not right on this one. Sorry.

Scott

[blunc]

Hate to disagree with you Danno. And I think this is first time I ever have? But, Buick's 340 is totally different engine from Buick's 425 nailhead. The nailhead has a look all of it's own. Hard to mistake from any other engine, even in 1/25th scale. Buick's 300 - 340 - 350, and later 430 and 455 are more conventional looking engines. So in this case Danno, I don't agree with you, Mike Cassidy is not right on this one. Sorry.

Scott

I believe you are mistaken Scott (and that's okay...), I have been saying (typing) "not nailhead" all along.

"I thought I was wrong, once....but I was mistaken."

[unclescott58]

Ah, Mike you suggested using a engine from '66 Riv kit. The '66 Riv engine in real life, and in the kit is a nailhead 425. I'm just pointing out that the '66 Riv you suggested would not be right. So am I right or wrong? Did I misunderstand you? I don't know. But I hope it's OK. Danno thinks quite highly of you. From Danno's posts I think quite highly of him. So if Danno thinks your OK, I'm sure you are. I'm just questioning the suggestion of the '66 Riv engine. No offense was meant.

Scott

[unclescott58]

Not to beat a dead horse here. But, belonging to and being active in the Buick Club of America, I've had the privilege of meeting a man by the name of Danny Manner several times. Mr. Manner is very interesting in several ways. 1. The new '66 Riviera kit from a few years back was modeled on his personal 1966 Buick Riviera. In fact the photograph on the box was of his actual car. 2. Is why Mr. Manner owns that particular 1966 Riviera. Denny work as an engine engineer for Buick for many years, starting in the early 1960's. And his favorite project he worked on at Buick, was developing the dual four barrel setup for the 425 nailhead. He claims they first tried supercharging the nailhead, but the transmissions wouldn't take it. So they went with the dual fours instead. When it came time for Denny to retire he wanted a car with that engine in it. He found a '66 Riv with that factory setup. Hence why the model kit of same has a 425 nailhead in it with dual four barrels.

I started this by saying I didn't want to beat a dead horse. But in this case, on engines in '66 Rivs, real or scale, I kind of got the info right from horses mouth you might say. No offense meant to Denny Manner.

Scott

[blunc]

Ah, Mike you suggested using a engine from '66 Riv kit. The '66 Riv engine in real life, and in the kit is a nailhead 425. I'm just pointing out that the '66 Riv you suggested would not be right. So am I right or wrong? Did I misunderstand you? I don't know. But I hope it's OK. Danno thinks quite highly of you. From Danno's posts I think quite highly of him. So if Danno thinks your OK, I'm sure you are. I'm just questioning the suggestion of the '66 Riv engine. No offense was meant.

Scott

Scott, I am not questioning your knowledge on Buick engines.

In my post regarding the 66 Riviera I also stated that "as long as it's not a nailhead type block no one will be able to tell the difference...except maybe Bill Geary.".

I don't have a 66 Riviera kit so I could not confirm what engine they put in the kit. I apologize for suggesting that an incorrect engine could be used.

[Danno]

I think you guys hit the nails on the head!

Edited June 6, 2014 by Danno

[unclescott58]

How about the engine in the AMT '66 Skylark Modified Stocker?

OK, beating a dead horse part 2. I did some research on AMT's '66 Skylark kits. The original and Modified Stocker. Those kits represent a Skylark GS. And the Skylark GS came with Buick's falsely advertised 400 cu. in. engine. The engine was really a 401. But, GM didn't allow engines over 400 cubes in their intermediate size cars until 1967. Buick's was close enough, as long as they advertised it as a 400. And guess what? The 400 ( a.k.a. 401) is a nailhead motor. So again, that with not work.

Both the regular AMT '66 Skylark kit with engine, and the '66 Skylark Modified Stocker came with an obvious nailhead motor. So sorry to say, these will not work either. And the AMT Craftsman '66 Skylark was a GS model too. But, with no motor. Curbside only.

As Mr. Brame pointed out, the closest engine maybe Jo-Han's Olds F-85 215 cu. in. V8. The block of the of the real engine was the same as, and developed by Buick for their '61 Special/Skylark line of cars. The Oldsmobile engine had different heads though. The basic architecture of that engine was used to develop Buick's first V6, and the family of Buick 300 - 340 - 350 V8 engines. The 215 was cast in aluminum. The others in cast iron. The aluminum V8 was sold to the British in 1964, and power things like Range Rovers until Ford bought that company. The Buick V6 went to Kaiser Jeep in the late 1960's. Which was then purchased by AMC. AMC switched Jeeps over to their own straight six. Putting the V6 into mothballs. Until Buick bought the tooling back after the first gas crisis in the mid-70's. This engine evolved into Buick's bulletproof 3800 that stuck around until the mid-2000s.

A long way to bring home a point. The AMT Skylark motor will not work in this kit either.

Scott

P.S. The '67 Skylark GS 400s were power by a new, and true 400 cubic inch V8. This engine was part of the Buick 430 - 455 family of engines. Similar, but not exactly the same as the Buick 300 - 340 - 350 family of engines.

Edited June 6, 2014 by unclescott58

[lordairgtar]

All this info is pretty heady stuff. It's agreed I can use the 215, 300, 340 engines. Had a 64 with a 300 and a 69 Special with the 350. They really don't look similar. That said, are there any Rover kits with engine detail?

[Casey]

[Mark]

How much of the engines can actually be seen in the completed model?  The best solution might be to look for more detailed intake manifolds, carburetors, and distributors, and leave it at that.

[Can-Con]

On 6/4/2014 at 9:09 AM, blunc said:

the 66 Riviera engine can probly be used, just tell anyone that asks what it is that it's a 340...they can't really dispute a small hunk of plastic.

 

as long as it's not a nailhead type block no one will be able to tell the difference...except maybe Bill Geary.

Wonder if that kit or it'd firetruck redo would ever see the light of day again. I kinda doubt it.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Can-Con

[Casey]

I wouldn't look too hard for an original ZZR engine if you're looking...not terribly impressive:

[Mark]

The small V8 with the distributor at the front was based on the V6.  Getting one of the MPC Jeepster V6 engines, and some mold making and casting material, will get you enough parts to piece together a couple of V8 engines.